Carlbrook

[Anonymous]

That's the best suggestion I have for anyone.  Take the money you were going to spend on a program and take a backpacking trip through Europe, or a barefoot cruise where you actually learn to sail, or a 2 month long road trip across America.

There is no single answer.  Every kid and every family is different and they have to find out what works for them.  Trouble is in this culture of insta-fix, pop a pill if you're down bullshit it's hard to convince people to just get back to the basics of actually raising a family.

[AtomicAnt]

But it's a tough thing to do when I smoke too. The "do as I say not as I do" method of parenting never worked very well when my parents raised me, and I never thought it would work very well on my kids either.

The most disturbing post I've seen on this thread. I've seen too many people die horrible smoking relating deaths. My Dad has oxygen tubes in his nose as we speak and cannot cross a room without getting winded. He smoked since he was a teen. Both my parents smoked. My Mom died of cancer. It took a year of hell to kill her.

I never smoked. Always the rebel, me.

Something you and your kid can do together for the new year. Quit.

[Anonymous]

I don't get it - these two parents clearly aren't stupid yet they persist in trying to prove a negative.  

As I said earlier, if these two are going to continue trying to sell Fornits readers on the idea that WT is a safe and effective treatment modality, then Fornits needs to seriously think about charging them an advertising fee.  I recommend charging by-the-word as opposed to a flat rate since both parents appear to be extremely verbose and err ... blessed with an inordinate amount of free time.

How about it?  10 cents a word sound fair enough?

[Anonymous]

I don't think many people are going to read through a 2000 post thread...

[Anonymous]

As I said earlier, if these two are going to continue trying to sell Fornits readers on the idea that WT is a safe and effective treatment modality,

They're not.  They're trying to convince themselves.  That's what this is really all about.  Doesn't matter.  I honestly think this is one of the most productive threads in a long time.  Karen has simply fulfulled the role of devil's advocate and proven to anyone with even a smidge of critical thinking skills that has been reading, that these places are fucked.  Everyone (especially Psy) has done an excellent job in seizing the opportunity.  There are a lot of lurking parents who have some of the same questions or arguments that Karen has and to see them countered time and time again with calm, rational and logical statements of personal experience and research makes a difference.  It did in the HLA forum, it is in the Hyde forum, it's been happening in the Carlbrook thread and many more.  These places all run on the same basic premise.  Break the kid down, build them up.  Some may be more severe than others, but its all the same when you get right down to it.  That's OK for some people (Karen)...the end justifies the means, but not for most compassionate people whose true interest is in the child, not how the child reflects on them.

[hanzomon4]

70's admits that sending his son to WT was a gamble and that he's lucky because his kid appears to be unharmed. Hardly an endorsement of wilderness therapy. Charly is discussing the issue from a parents point of view, I feel that this is a good thing because it helps us understand the rational of program parents(no offense Charly). She also provides us with questions from the desperate parents point of view, like a lack of alternatives.
I know it just seems like useless back and forth but this is the way of civil discourse

[Anonymous]

I don't think many people are going to read through a 2000 post thread...

Very true - especially if there aren't any pictures.

[Anonymous]

Charly is discussing the issue from a parents point of view, I feel that this is a good thing because it helps us understand the rational of program parents(no offense Charly).

Yep, exactly.  I don't think she realizes how helpful she's been, just not in the way she intended.

Thanks Karen.

[Anonymous]

I don't think many people are going to read through a 2000 post thread...

Very true - especially if there aren't any pictures.

This thread is useless without.....oh, wait.  Wrong site.

/Farker
//yay slashies!
 ::bwahaha::

[Anonymous]

Hmmm.  Civil discourse.  Sounds like a behavioral disorder.  But yeah, I get your point.  Just wish the two program apologists had more to say than the same old song and dance.  This shit gets old, ya know!

[Karass]

Well, you're all right about several things:

This thread is too long.

Nobody besides a few Fornits regulars will have even read this far.

Programs suck.

My son and I should quit smoking.

I have too much time on my hands. But that will change soon, since vacation is over and I have to be at work in 8 hours.

Oh, and one other thing: there has got to be a better way to deal with real life problems than the bullshit solutions we tried locally and the bullshit solution we tried with the Troubled Teen industry.

[Oz girl]

No, the elitist/arrogant attitude has been a problem for him for some time, and is some of what led to believing he didn't have to follow school, family or governmental rules.  I don't think it is a good thing and he still is working on it.  It is not a trait his other family members have.  He knows it offends a lot of people, but for some reason, a lot of his peers put up with it.  It made Carlbrook staff crazy.

I wonder if in the case of Carlbrook what he objected to were rules which did not have any logical point. Adults have to follow rules largely so that others dont get hurt. But they dont get "banned" from reading or making particular friendships, or have to confess their most shameful things to people they just met.

To an extent i get why the parent of a kid who is mildly criminal eg stealing, involved in vandalism, stealing the family car is concerned about the idea that their kid lacks respect for others property. It is also difficult to teach a kid about this when you are reasonably affluent. But it is not as if either wilderness or TBS is morally pure on this score given the amount of profit it makes from families in crisis. A reasonably smart kid must be able to figure this out. If anything if i were one of these kids the first thought toward my minders would be that my behaviour is paying your wages so go fuck yourself you 2 bit facist.  

I would sooner see my kids be made to do some kind of volunteer work which forced them to learn something about the wider world, and the genuine hardships that people go through by being made do something humanitarian. How can any kid be expected to learn empathy if they are in a place which is designed to continually dwell on all that is wrong with them until they either become hardened or in need of rebuilding?
ZTo charlie- if you had your time over with your son what would you do differently to teach him the empathy you feel he lacked?

[Nihilanthic]

I wonder when Karen is gonna try another three-peat of her attempts at justification and yet again ignore what we've brought to everyone's attention, more than once  :roll:

[Covergaard]

I have looked at their site and I can see, that it is mandatory for the child to be on at wilderness course. They even recommend one.

Do they however set some standards towards the quality of the wilderness course? (Length, therapy, time gap between wilderness and school, licensed staff etc.)

Does anyone have some papers about the level system or honor of code, as they call the rules which could be skipped off to Denmark?

That about consequenses = punishment. Does anyone have a list on paper?

[Anonymous]

Is it true that Karen had some work done on her tits? I'm just curious.