Fornits AA/NA Chapter

[DannyB II]

Because I want to hear opinions from all spectrum of this debate, I find it much more interesting. I also appreciate that this forum is open and not moderated and my posts are not edited or deleted. It's a place I can be completely honest without fear of censorship, and I enjoy this privilege very much.

Don't you see how that's contradictory to what you're trying to do?

All I was trying to create with this thread was a discussion, not about the merits of AA or debate it's effectiveness. More structured like an AA meeting, or if you dislike AA, just like a group of friends who have had issues with substance abuse and choose to discuss it on a serious level, what works for them, what doesn't. Why do they think they are addicts, alcoholics. Sometimes I get tired of discussing the politics of issues, and prefer to hear human stories and experiences. That was my only point in starting this thread. like I said, I think I failed. I'll try again in some other way, eventually. Thanks for posting.

I have no problem with people discussing trying to quit using and I've always said that AA as ONLY a support group (no big book, no 12&12, and NO sponsors), isn't necessarily a bad thing....but when you start throwing pseudo-cults in the mix, you're gonna get negative reactions.

And I must say, I'm somewhat confused......you've been quite the asshole yourself, but lately not so much.  It's appreciated.  At least by me.

Let me see, delusional one. Do you ever see your abusive side here or is it always someone else who forced you to be a asshole.

If you can read, you'll see that I said that I was a timid and shy person before going in.  At Straight I was taught to be a bitch.  You couldn't progress in your phases unless you were a total bitch, confronting and screaming at other phasers.  That's why I was on 1st phase for 8 months straight (no pun intended).  

And it's "an" asshole, not "a" asshole.

Anne I am talking about your personality on fornits, "now" (present day).
I enjoy saying, ("a" asshole). Thanks.

[none-ya]

SUCK IT wrote;
All I was trying to create with this thread was a discussion, not about the merits of AA or debate it's effectiveness. More structured like an AA meeting

AT least I tried to play along.

[reformed12stepper]

Sometimes I have dreams, that seem very real. In these dreams I end up using again, drugs that I have had difficulties with. I had one last night smoking meth, I know in the dream I shouldn't be doing it, but I do it anyways. Then I get high, and I feel high in the dream and all the feelings associated with it, and all the worries that come along with it to.  I feel regret for having slipped up and then when I wake up it's like I just relived it all over again. You know how dreams can feel real, or at least the feelings that happened in them? I have these dreams every once in a while, which are both a blessing and a curse. It's a good reminder why I don't want to use again, but I feel like since my brain knows what it feels like to get high these dreams sort of tease me and say look what you're missing. Overall it brings up a lot of stress in my life to have these dreams, this is one reason I posted this thread.

I don't have a lot of money, I dont' see therapists or anything like that. I don't have health insurance so I can't go to rehab if I needed to. So to me right now the number one goal is prevention, preventing myself from falling down the same path I have taken before. AA/NA is an organization that I think helps to accomplish this task. It's all about prevention. If you can keep from picking up the pipe, or a drink then you have won the most important part of the battle. Once that happens then, at least for me, it's too late. So I choose to focus on trying to find ways to keep myself from doing these things I used to do. It's a constant battle and one that is never going to be won, but I have to keep on fighting. I know some people here hate AA for whatever reason. But I would hope that they can also respect that it does help some people. If you don't want to share, that's fine. I will share and people can read it, and post pictures of poop in response if they want. But it helps me to talk about it, and so I do it. i like this forum and so I thought we could help each other out in being sober, at least sober from the things we cannot control. Smoke pot or drink, or whatever. If you can control it I could care less, really. But when people have difficulty controlling taking substances that cause serious life problems, I don't think it's that weird to hold a hand out and say, at the very least, we are hear to listen. I am going to be respectful and can only hope people will return the favor, thanks.

I have heard other people in 12 step meetings talk about dreaming of using. I think a part of it might be the idea that what you are dealing with is a disease as opposed to a bad habit. I dont know if it helps you to look at it this way but drug taking like eating junk food is a choice. If on a day to day basis you choose not to do it, in the same way you choose not to steal or not to hit people that piss you off you wont. If one day you do use, then rather than feeling convinced that you have fallen off some wagon, you can always just make the choice to stop again and maybe have a think about what gave you the urge and how better to deal with it. Remember 12 steps are not the ONLY answer. Hope this helps

[T-Rex]

reformed12stepper,
I am so happy that you have reformed and found that you no longer have to abuse drugs and/or alcohol. Many never seem to get the answer that you have so graciously received and die a agonizing death.
Watching someone die from alcohol poisoning, cirrhosis of the liver ect...is a sad experience.
Drug dreams, as they are called are very real for the addict, early on in his recovery. They are very vivid and scary for the individual having them.
I am not sure what your point was concerning whether addiction is a disease or habit and if one or the other has anything to do with dreaming about using drugs. Please elaborate more on this, if you can.
I agree with you that the 12 steps are not the only way to recover.

[none-ya]

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

If only.

[T-Rex]

None-Ya,
Hey thanks for the serenity prayer. One of my favorites. You are right, "if only".

[reformed12stepper]

reformed12stepper,
I am so happy that you have reformed and found that you no longer have to abuse drugs and/or alcohol. Many never seem to get the answer that you have so graciously received and die a agonizing death.
Watching someone die from alcohol poisoning, cirrhosis of the liver ect...is a sad experience.
Drug dreams, as they are called are very real for the addict, early on in his recovery. They are very vivid and scary for the individual having them.
I am not sure what your point was concerning whether addiction is a disease or habit and if one or the other has anything to do with dreaming about using drugs. Please elaborate more on this, if you can.
I agree with you that the 12 steps are not the only way to recover.

I guess what i was saying is that sometimes the idea that you have some disease that you can never be cured of is counter productive and may add to any fears someone has of using unnecessarily. Thus they could be more likely to still have nightmares after a prolonged period of absence. Because if after detoxing etc you start to view drug abuse as a bad habit or even negative behavior you are in the drivers seat. You can decide to not take drugs, just as you regularly decide not to steal or not to beat your spouse. If you have a disease you are at it's mercy. I am not pretending to be some kind of guru on this topic it is just how i have come to see it.
I too had quite a few nasty dreams early on in the process. I think when you first stop using you have a lot going on and it is a stressful time.
I am glad too that I have gotten past that stage of my life. I am a pretty lucky guy. One thing that has sustained me is my relationships with family and friends. Not feeling alone is a big help. If you are someone who is isolated socially then I would suggest taking up a hobby that is social like a sport or amateur theatre. Other people can be a real comfort. if you are the flinty eyed solitary type just ignore this last paragraph :seg:

[T-Rex]

reformed12stepper,

Thanks for more insight there. I think the people you are referring to who have no one in there life at the exact time they get sober, use AA as a hobby (so to speak) it fills the huge void left by their destructive life style.
AA does not have to be a life time choice, many fellow members do not go to AA on a regular bases as they once did. They were able to get sober and sustain the sobriety, made some friends, built some character and gradually moved on. These folks will check in from time to time but it is not mandatory for them to stay sober nor do they see it that way.
AA is a choice and how you go about making your decisions while attending AA is critical in the lasting opinion you will have of your time there. You are responsible for your success in AA, not the others you meet. This is your decision.
12, you talk about the freedom to make decisions and so forth concerning drug addictions and alcoholism, there is a point in both afflictions that medically they can no longer make a "free choice". There many decisions we can make, I agree but I also know those same free decisions can also be taken away.

[reformed12stepper]

reformed12stepper,

Thanks for more insight there. I think the people you are referring to who have no one in there life at the exact time they get sober, use AA as a hobby (so to speak) it fills the huge void left by their destructive life style.
AA does not have to be a life time choice, many fellow members do not go to AA on a regular bases as they once did. They were able to get sober and sustain the sobriety, made some friends, built some character and gradually moved on. These folks will check in from time to time but it is not mandatory for them to stay sober nor do they see it that way.
AA is a choice and how you go about making your decisions while attending AA is critical in the lasting opinion you will have of your time there. You are responsible for your success in AA, not the others you meet. This is your decision.
12, you talk about the freedom to make decisions and so forth concerning drug addictions and alcoholism, there is a point in both afflictions that medically they can no longer make a "free choice". There many decisions we can make, I agree but I also know those same free decisions can also be taken away.

this is certainly the case for some. But many people that do have other supports are referred to AA anyway. Personally i see a benefit in joining orgainzations that are not focused on the problem. This way the focus is not continually on what you are trying to give up. it is on the sport or hobby etc.
I dispute the idea that taking drugs is never not a choice. Dont get me wrong it is a hard thing to give up. But you always have a choice.  about giving up. Afterall you made the choice to develop a dependency. The therapist who worked with me when i got treatment had previously worked a this place
http://www.stgregoryctr.com/ they utilized what they call a life process model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-proce ... _addiction
Not eveyone at the rehab i attended was into this but i did great with it.

[SUCK IT]

For me personally I believe addiction is closer to a disease than a choice. Using for the first time is a choice, after that it becomes very difficult and the more it goes on, the less and less it feels like a choice. Eventually whatever choice existed, is no longer an option and the only choices are where/how will I be able to use next? I have friends who seem to be able to use drugs on the weekends, and go back to work on Monday like nothing happened. I envy them. But if I start on a friday night, I won't stop until I run out of money, or what usually happens is whoever I'm buying from puts a stop to it. I've had several different dealers flat out refuse to sell me more, and every time that happens I know something is wrong. When your drug dealer is telling you no, sorry buddy, but you got to stop for a few days before I'll sell you any more then you realize you have issues.

So yes I suppose it is a choice. The choice of whether I'll use that first time, and to remain in the right mind set to make the right choice everyday things like AA help. Even the corny sayings help a lot, and just the idea of that AA is out there and there are people who will help. Its sort of a safety net, like a life jacket. I don't plan on falling off the boat, most people on boats do not. But you wear the life jacket just in case you do fall off, even if you think you can swim. Because it might just keep you afloat in your most desperate hour. I know you can't take somebody's blood and diagnose them with "addiction", but the term disease is accurate from my view because it's a lifelong issue that never really goes away (for me at least). Its like living with diabetes or psoriasis or something, you might not have symptoms, but every now and then you might have a flare up and need to treat it. i'm not trying to start an argument about it, just stating my opinion in my own personal experience with addiction issues.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

I have friends

False.

[T-Rex]

reformed12stepper,

Thanks for more insight there. I think the people you are referring to who have no one in there life at the exact time they get sober, use AA as a hobby (so to speak) it fills the huge void left by their destructive life style.
AA does not have to be a life time choice, many fellow members do not go to AA on a regular bases as they once did. They were able to get sober and sustain the sobriety, made some friends, built some character and gradually moved on. These folks will check in from time to time but it is not mandatory for them to stay sober nor do they see it that way.
AA is a choice and how you go about making your decisions while attending AA is critical in the lasting opinion you will have of your time there. You are responsible for your success in AA, not the others you meet. This is your decision.
12, you talk about the freedom to make decisions and so forth concerning drug addictions and alcoholism, there is a point in both afflictions that medically they can no longer make a "free choice". There many decisions we can make, I agree but I also know those same free decisions can also be taken away.

this is certainly the case for some. But many people that do have other supports are referred to AA anyway. Personally i see a benefit in joining orgainzations that are not focused on the problem. This way the focus is not continually on what you are trying to give up. it is on the sport or hobby etc.
I dispute the idea that taking drugs is never not a choice. Dont get me wrong it is a hard thing to give up. But you always have a choice.  about giving up. Afterall you made the choice to develop a dependency. The therapist who worked with me when i got treatment had previously worked a this place
http://www.stgregoryctr.com/ they utilized what they call a life process model
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-proce ... _addiction
Not eveyone at the rehab i attended was into this but i did great with it.

Very interesting article, thanks reform 12. I do believe this "life process" can work, I believe I know a few folks who have benefited from something similar.
I do have say that disputing the consumption of drugs as a choice when it reaches the critical stages is not wise on your part, reform 12. People do reach critical consumption levels where mentally they can not rationally see a choice.
Now this is not many and I am sure that you never experienced this level for any length of time but leave the door open.

[Whooter]

I am convinced that addiction runs in families.  Some people can stop on Sunday night and others just need to keep going until they run out of money.  I saw this in College and all throughout life.  I can look at all my family and extended family and we have drinkers and druggers.  They are “all” functional but on the occasion that they needed to abstain because of pregnancy or needed to quit to support a spouse or because of a reaction to a medication….. I have a few relatives who drank everyday of their lives for decades and then needed to stop for various reasons…… Each and every time they were able to do it on their own without outside help and never struggled to stay clean down the road.

On the other hand I have inlaws who are plagued with addiction issues to the point where every member of the family ended up in rehab to one extent or another and struggle on a daily basis.  They are not weaker minded or different in any other way.  Some are successful and others are not but the addiction strikes them equally.  They cant quit smoking, drinking, gambling, drugging.  It runs right to their core.

In my experience it seems to be contained to certain blood lines.

For those cursed with addiction issues I think it can be classified as a disease.



...

[reformed12stepper]

For me personally I believe addiction is closer to a disease than a choice. Using for the first time is a choice, after that it becomes very difficult and the more it goes on, the less and less it feels like a choice. Eventually whatever choice existed, is no longer an option and the only choices are where/how will I be able to use next? I have friends who seem to be able to use drugs on the weekends, and go back to work on Monday like nothing happened. I envy them. But if I start on a friday night, I won't stop until I run out of money, or what usually happens is whoever I'm buying from puts a stop to it. I've had several different dealers flat out refuse to sell me more, and every time that happens I know something is wrong. When your drug dealer is telling you no, sorry buddy, but you got to stop for a few days before I'll sell you any more then you realize you have issues.

So yes I suppose it is a choice. The choice of whether I'll use that first time, and to remain in the right mind set to make the right choice everyday things like AA help. Even the corny sayings help a lot, and just the idea of that AA is out there and there are people who will help. Its sort of a safety net, like a life jacket. I don't plan on falling off the boat, most people on boats do not. But you wear the life jacket just in case you do fall off, even if you think you can swim. Because it might just keep you afloat in your most desperate hour. I know you can't take somebody's blood and diagnose them with "addiction", but the term disease is accurate from my view because it's a lifelong issue that never really goes away (for me at least). Its like living with diabetes or psoriasis or something, you might not have symptoms, but every now and then you might have a flare up and need to treat it. i'm not trying to start an argument about it, just stating my opinion in my own personal experience with addiction issues.

I agree that some people are more likely to form dangerous habits and would even say that this is why people like you and I suck it should stay away from drugs. But there are some people who struggle with weight issues and others who spend too much. Some Gamble. None are making a rational choice because if they were they would know that they need to be a healthy weight to live or that they could loose everything if their debts pile up on top of them. Such people may benefit from counselling some may even do well taking some time out and getting some intensive therapy, but i dont think that what they have is a disease. I am glad that AA is a life jacket for you but to steal your metaphore a life jacket cant save you if you don't learn how to swim in emergency conditions. If you can swim you will get to the shore yourself

[DannyB II]

BP, I think you will find some great insight here on this AA/NA thread. Give it a go.