Changes at Pathway?

[Anonymous]

Yea, sure I'd want to have someone listening specifically to me pee or shit.Wouldn't you? There are pornographic sites that deal with just that issue.  How long does that take.  Five to ten minutes.  My God they could harm themselves right in front of you!!!! ANYTIME. EVERYBODY needs some privacy. I read about a girl who still had problems going to the bathroom in public restrooms because of her experiences.  Maybe I take this harder than others because I grew up without privacy for the bathroom in my own family. And guess what YOU become family. If the kids going to do drugs, what makes you think he's going to hide them in the toilet? If he does what are you going to do about it other than call Pathway.

[Anonymous]

On 2003-07-02 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

"It would have been a whole lot cheaper to have alarmed your house.  Your friend wasn't with his daughter at all times was he. That's what I meant, right there. Then take your child to a therapist every day.  A bitch but my God better than Pathway. Hard work being a parent. Also a trip to Pathway to see what happens might help too."

Yes ... alarming the whole house is cheaper than Pathway. Pathway is NOT howerver more expensive than loosing my wages for the remaining years of my child's expected drug years while I am teathered to them without being even allowed to sleep. If you guys want to talk about humuliation, go thru the next 3 or 4 years with your parent by your immediate side. Explain to all you meet he or she is there to prevent me from doing harm to myself. There is a real self-esteem booster. It would make me feel better about myself.(NOT) Apparently the issue is that Pathway was involved in my humiliation. If my mom or dad does it to me I can handle that. Did ya grow  by learning anything new on the way? Or did you just harbor more deepened resentments?

[Anonymous]

"

On 2003-07-02 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:


"It would have been a whole lot cheaper to have alarmed your house.  Your friend wasn't with his daughter at all times was he. That's what I meant, right there. Then take your child to a therapist every day.  A bitch but my God better than Pathway. Hard work being a parent. Also a trip to Pathway to see what happens might help too."

<... to add on to that....

"Then take your child to a therapist every day" .

Average cost of a therapist is $150 a session. That is $4,500.00 a month. That is $54k a year ..... hmmmmmmmm sounds more expensive than Pathway already... yet my child is still exposed to influence of druggy friends lessens the desire to look at themself.

Note: Antigen edited this message Wednesday, July 2, 2003 at 7:40PM to fix a formatting error. The content remains the same, hopefully as the author intended. In fact, I'm in inch worm mode and haven't even read it yet.

[Carmel]

Well, on the topic of smashing the toilet seat and slitting your wrists with the shards....it most certainly begs the question....If my child has been on first phase for 6 or 7 months and is still in danger of smashing a toilet lid to cut himself up.....does anyone think maybe the treatment isnt working? Does anyone think maybe a different approach needs to be taken? Does anyone know if Pathway recognizes the fact that these kids are not responding?  How does a 13-16 year old teenager recognize when another child is in danger of attempting suicide and how that should be handled?  And if they were to encounter it, how would they feel about themselves for not having that knowledge?  I would never want my child in that position.

Straight didnt recognize this...there were kids like this who had been there for years...still on first phase.  Restrained 5-6 times per day....they didnt need a toilet seat, they used their own fingernails to gouge into their arms. Whether or not these kids are being humiliated in the bathroom, says nothing of how they are being humiliated in the group room!

Im very sorry Anon, but being now an adult with children of my own and a healthy perspective on life...I can look back and I see fully how our parents were shown only certain aspects of what we were subjected to.  The very fabric of the rules of the program are in place to prohibit un-controlled communications and in effect give an incomplete picture of what REALLY went on in that environment.  The very idea that you can take the same rules, the same methods and the same ideas and eliminate the violence, humiliation and stress....is just not possible....they were all created to employ those things in order to be effective.  Without them, the program does not work.....at least according to how they say it is supposed to work.  That is saying nothing of how it messes kids up much later in life.

I understand your want and need to help your child, there is no fault in that.  But please, PLEASE understand....I am not participating in this because I have a grudge or resentment to my experience in this sort of program.  I am doing it because I have completed the spectrum of what this sort of ideaology can do to a human being....and were I not a stronger person, the result could have been much worse than the initial reasons for getting the help.

You want to know how many of my former friends and just people I knew from the program (which is quite a few, we had an outrageous number of people in our group)actually remained "sober" according to the Pathway, Straight, AA or NA model?  One. And they are still messed up.  Cant have a serious commitment in a realtionship, cant express feelings or emotion without arrogance....

Those are real odds, real statistics.  I have seen it.  You cant possibly live in an environment like Pathway or Straight for so long, and then come out into the real world and expect to function like that on an ongoing basis without reprocussions.  You dont even have to take it from me, the numbers and the facts are out there for all to see.

[Carmel]

What is the meaning behind "looking at yourself".

In Straight, looking at yourself meant focusing on the incidents of your past behaviour in order to "see" the horror of how you acted, what you did and who you did it to.  For example, this meant talking about sex in a way that demonized it.  We werent allowed to view anything sexual as healthy, it was all bad, druggie behaviour.  Normal, real people did not have sex, did not think about sex, parents did not talk to us about sex.  We were made to feel that by participating in any form of sexual behaviour, we were contributing to our disease and this is how we were to relate to sex in group.  

Now, with that in mind, once we were finished "looking at ourselves" we began to see the reasons BEHIND our behaviour, we began to see what motivated us to act in the way we did.  THIS is where the program fell short and lumped it onto "drugs".  I had sex with men I didnt know, prolifically, not because I wanted drugs....or even because I was ever high.  I did it because I didnt understand the dynamics of human physical interaction and what it meant to be in love...I thought they were all the same because my own father had abused me sexually.

Now, after properly "looking at myself" in the program, which I did whole-heartedly.  How could I have expected a group of my peers to acknowledge and give feedback on that?  How could I expect anything less than a fully trained psychiatrist to diagnose what I had been interpreting as healthy, and even then it was a long-shot having taken years and years to recognize it myself?

[Anonymous]

Give me a break. So you really think the kid would have you be following him around for even more than a few times. I think he would get the picture.  I know that these parents did not have a real specific plan.  Did you drug test your kid? Were there consequences? Did you take away all his stuff and give it back to him as he earned it? You could have done all these things. Look what they are able to do at Pathway.  Involve your family too? How is being with your child humiliating him. Good to see you are so willing to turn yourself and your child over to others to discipline, I guess that's what it is. You realize that Pathway and only Pathway knows what they are doing.

[METALGOD8]

TO THE ANONYMOUS HUGGER:

Watching clients in the bathroom was the reason why I had to hold my urine for 3 days. Back in the formative years of Pathway, ie STRAIGHT, INC., mind you, quite a bit of highly illegal, immoral, and otherwise plain outright criminal activities took place. Do you think for one moment that the kid you are allegedly illegally hosting in your home will kill themselves? Are you qualified as a psychiatrist to determine that? If you are so concerned about the safety of children with drug problems, behavior problems, etc etc... you will cease and desist your involvement with Pathway immediately. By allowing a program as abusive and as closely modeled to the STRAIGHT, INC. treatment model as it gets, these days, you may in fact be held liable for charges of child abuse among other things. Please understand that it may not be your fault in your mind, but in reality, Pathway is part of a BIG PROBLEM, not the solution!


MG8 :smokin:

[Anonymous]

On 2003-07-02 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Give me a break. So you really think the kid would have you be following him around for even more than a few times. I think he would get the picture.  I know that these parents did not have a real specific plan.  Did you drug test your kid? Were there consequences? Did you take away all his stuff and give it back to him as he earned it? You could have done all these things. Look what they are able to do at Pathway.  Involve your family too? How is being with your child humiliating him. Good to see you are so willing to turn yourself and your child over to others to discipline, I guess that's what it is. You realize that Pathway and only Pathway knows what they are doing."

     Kids on drugs do not think logically or seldom in their best interest. They crave a drug. Nothing I do will register in comparison. For new users...ummmmm maybe... for those already using for 2 to 5 years... well they obviously had time to stop and did not until forced to by denying access to it.
     Pathway is NOT the only way. I never said it was. If that what you said to do would have worked, I would have been delighted to go that route. Pathway works for me and my family. No one forced me to go there. No one will force me to leave the program because they had issues with it. They had the major issues of their own making, I do not.How many drug users are there in Michigan? How many are addicts? How many are at Pathway? Hmmmmmm I do not think Pathway has all the addicts.... if so I never realized how few addicts there are here. No one is held a gun to my head and said I had to be there. I choose to be there. Did my child ask to be there? NO Absolutely NO!!! Sorry,under the age of 18, you don't have a vote in the matter. Like I said before, if you think you are right, then petition the courts to emancipate yourself and get on with life. If it is so bad, the judges are reasonable men here to uphold the law... so ummmmm what's the problem?  Maybe finding the answers to that... one has to look a little closer to home for what the problems really are and where they stem from. Scapegoats are convenient methods of avoiding looking at my own issues. I no longer use them as a crutch to deny what I wished not to see. So, what I am saying... you want to be an adult? Then be one. Take the responsibility of supporting yourself and then I have very little to say about your activities. I will still love you, I choose not to support unhealthy living.

Oh... by the way... when I have quit my job to spend all my living moments with my child. Go to a therapist every day costing more than Pathway ... I am paying for all of this by what method now that I am unemployed?  I am delighted to see that you are at least thinking of possible alternatives and all the things us parents had to do. Not only did we have to come up with methods to do what needed to be done, the only difference in the adult world is we are forced to choose one that is feasible.

Wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am impressed. This is what learning is all about. Many times our solutions lead us to dead ends, but we still learn from those mistakes to help us make better ones. Hugs  :smile:

[Anonymous]

I am truely sorry for your experiences at Straight. If what you described are accurate, I too would not want to be there. My experiences are with Pathway and I can only tell you that although a very difficult program for both parents and the children to go thru, those who stuck it out and did not "drop out" had a better outlook on life. Does it fix everyone, NOOOO!!! But I can only say from my own experience and that of my family, it has been helpful. It works for me and I use the steps every day of my life in one form or another.

 I just keep an open mind and based on my experiences, choose, continue to support a program that has worked for me. If it is not working for you then don't waste your money and go find something that does. It is the law of free enterprise. If someone builds a better mousetrap, no one buys the old one. Show me a better mousetrap and I will consider it, but all I hear is how they hate the one that is here. There is nothing offered in its place except.... Leave it alone and do nothing.... sorry ... not an option for me.  hugs  :smile:

[METALGOD8]

Would you be willing to explain to a judge there in Michigan that you support an abusive drug treatment program? Would you try to paint them as dedicated partners and tell the judge you support them? After all, you paid Pathway big money to abuse your child, right? Is the pride you feel from spending all that money and the idea that it was well spent blocking the light shining on facts about abuse there at Pathway? Have you ever thought: "I spent xxxxxx dollars, and it is all better now." "I couldn't have spent less and achieved the same or better results" "This mousetrap works like a charm, just look at how much money I spent, it was worth every penny."
All things considered, child abuse is a very serious issue with courts and the media.
You know the program has been determined to be abusive and you are still supporting, defending, and promoting it. Regardless of other treatment options, continuing to support Pathway Family Center is, in my opinion, not a good idea. I am still in the "advice to you" stage and would be happy to discuss the "big picture" with you. My treatment was over 20 years ago, no need to feel sorry for that now.

  :smokin:

[Antigen]

On 2003-07-02 11:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2003-07-02 10:26:00, Anonymous wrote:


"It would have been a whole lot cheaper to have alarmed your house.

Um... just guessing? But I'm pretty sure that was a sarcastic remark you're refering to here. If you're really just looking for a bargain basement solution to parenting, it would be cheaper still to take your kid to a communist bloc country, like Korea, then take their documentation and split.

That would be about the cheapest way to get the same effect as you do by sending them to a large group thought reform program like Pathway. And think of the benefits! No more parent meetings, no nukes to take care of, none of the bullshit. Of course, justifying this kind of cruelty would be your own problem. No Staff and Parents group to keep stoking you and telling you how good and brave and nobel you are for it.  

When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"  
-- Quentin Crisp

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
American P.O.W. 10/80 - 10/82
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
Anonymity Anonymous

[Anonymous]

You are illegally keeping kids in your home.  You are not a Foster Parent and certified by the state.

[SurvivorEMSR]

For 26 months, I went through the same routine, more or less, day by day. It sounds feeble, but yes, I was forced to belive that I was a drug addict and an alcoholic. That old saying, "When you tell yourself something for long enough, you start to belive it," surely applies to me. Standing up in group and saying, "Look, I really don't think I am addicted to marijuana or alcohol, and I really don't think that I will end up dead or in jail without this program," didn't last very long. Why? Because I sat on first level for over six months until I "got honest."

This was absolutely humiliating for me. I was forced to label myself a serious addict, and I spent over two years dealing with "issues" that led to my "serious drug problem."

I believe that Pathway did help me to grow up and take responsibility for my actions, but 26 months being treated for addiction? Just to clarify this, I did take that "first drink" a couple of years ago, and believe it or not, I am definitely not an alcoholic. I drink maybe once or twice a month, and sure, I've even been drunk a few times, but is that really that bad? Keep in mind, I am a junior in college with a 3.74 GPA, I have a great relationship with my family, great friends, (some from Pathway, and by the way, it seems as if they're not alcoholics either), a wonderful girlfriend, and overall, a pretty decent life. Now, you may say, "Well, PFC gave you that." I would reply they absolutely did not. I realized in about a month at Pathway that I needed to be more responsible. I was in there for 26, and I was treated for a disease that I don't even have.

My parents spent thousand of dollars on my PFC stay (Someone mentioned 30,000?) Well, my parents spent WELL over that. My parents were told that all of this time and money was necessary so that I wouldn't end up in jail or dead. Admittedly, I can't positivly prove that I wouldn't have ended up in these situations, but the fact remains that PFC supporters can spout off these predictions all day, BUT the happenings that I speak of involving Pathway actually did happen, and they were horrible!

I appreciate supporters writing on this site (sometimes), and I respect their opinions, but what I say about what I went through in Pathway is FACT, not hypothesis, and I belive it was wrong. Many people have said, "Well just get over it." Do you think I haven't tried that? I would love to "Just get over it."

Anyway, thank you for listening, and I'll see you all later. EMSR  

[ This Message was edited by: SurvivorEMSR on 2003-07-03 08:23 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2003-07-02 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Give me a break. So you really think the kid would have you be following him around for even more than a few times. I think he would get the picture.  I know that these parents did not have a real specific plan.  Did you drug test your kid? Were there consequences? Did you take away all his stuff and give it back to him as he earned it? You could have done all these things. Look what they are able to do at Pathway.  Involve your family too? How is being with your child humiliating him. Good to see you are so willing to turn yourself and your child over to others to discipline, I guess that's what it is. You realize that Pathway and only Pathway knows what they are doing."

"Did you take away all his stuff and give it back to him as he earned it? You could have done all these things."

Thank you for your thoughts on this. It shows that you are not far away in thought from the Pathway model. I believe it sends a poor message to totally base behavior on possession of "material things" Johnny, if you are bad I will take away your Nintendo. Some children do not own many material things due to their family situation. I am not saying that it would not be one of the weapons in my arsenal, but I seriously doubt it would be enough to persuade someone who has raging hormones,under the influence of drugs and clearly not thinking rationally and in denial. What does each child possess that is a universal that they would sorely miss if it were taken from them.
1 Personal freedom
2 Social freedoms, clicking, looking at others without permission, talking with others without permission,permission to stand up or sit down, permission to move about the room, permission to pour a glass of water, restriction of what room you may allowed to enter,having access to the phone, never a free moment to be by myself, privacy in general.

3 Loss of All simple material possessions, jewelry,make-up, watches, wallets, keys,furniture other than mattresses in phaser room.
And as a side effect from insuring these things,
I as a parent am also restricted in my own personal freedoms. I cannot watch television while you are in the room. I cannot listen to music while you are in the room. I cannot walk around certain areas of the house whily you are in the bathroom or getting changed. I must listen to phone calls not only listening for the content of your conversation but to make sure the other person on the line is who you say they are and that the conversation is not harmful (making you visibly upset). I cannot go anywhere and leave you unsupervised. So WE ALL pay a hefty price for a dysfunctional family.
What do I think will have  more influence on my willingness to "earn" the right to do again... play Nintendo or obtain my freedoms back?
Ok, now that I have your attention the only way you can get these things back is to be willing to be honest with your feelings. Have the anger if that is what is there but UNDERSTAND why it is there and deal with underlying causes. Does this work to erase the issues in everyone? NO But it has a better chance of doing it than doing nothing or superficial changes for kids (and parents) needing an elevated level of intervention.

Anger is a valid feeling but anger is a symptom of other problems just as a fever is a symptom of infection or other hidden problems in the body. I can treat my fever and is necessary when excessive, but if I don't address what caused it in the first place then I am still at great risk and the fever remains persistant.

Anyhow, I commend you for at least looking at the issue and thinking about it. Your way would have worked.... earlier in my child's use barring any other psychological issues. Again... that was my fault. Was I too hard or was I too permissive? How much was me and how much should be owned by my child? Going thru Pathway has taught me how to parent in a healthy way and look at life.  I have noticed the changes. People around me notice them too. No one has stated they dislike the new me. No one has told my child they dislike them. My child likes who he has become.

Hugs  :smile:

[Anonymous]

Hugs,
You sound like a bloody clone/drone and you don't even realize it do you?

You poor sap. ::  ::  ::