Challenge for Wilderness Supporters

[Deborah]

Here's the challenge. A little informal 'study'.

For two months you eat nothing but rolled oats, rice, and lentils.

The first two weeks you must eat them uncooked.
Beginning the third week, you can cook them but may not add any salt or other condiment.

You'll eat this for all three meals.

Once a day you can throw in a carrot or apple

And of course, 2 quarts of water per day.

We'd like weekly, if not daily reports on how it's going, how you feel, etc.

Who's up for the challenge??

[Troll Control]

LOL...  These cowards are "do as I say, not as I do" types.  I understand what you're driving at Deb, but the fact of the matter is that this is completely unacceptable to these people, but they have no problem inflicting it on their children.

Good luck getting volunteers... :lol:

[TheWho]

Now this would be interesting.  If you make it through 3 weeks you will be amazed at how well you feel, it takes this long for your body to become completely cleansed of virtually all impurities.  The rice needs to be rationed/ measured because you don?t want to bulk up too much during the process (I think it is under 1,200 calories/ Day).  My room mate in college had a girlfriend who did this, (turned out she had an eating disorder), but after losing 10 pounds the balanced diet sustained her for 3 months and her weight leveled out.  This is why I can not stomach lentils and garlic to this day; she had this on the stove constantly!

The major problem I see is it is one thing to do this in the woods when you are with a group, but if you are trying this at home with all kinds of foods around and driving past McDonalds etc. it will make it Very difficult.  It would be easier to try this with other people so you can support each other in your efforts.

[Anonymous]

Who, think about the point Deborah was trying to make with this challenge.  These kids have their food severely limited while in the harshest of conditions most times.  Little clothing and protection from the elements and the pittance they get has to be earned and can easily be taken away at the whim of the inexperienced counselor or group.  Those not found to be line are often isolated within the isolation.  They're shunned from the group for not behaving as expected.  Not to mention the fact that these kids are in one of the major growth periods of their lives.  The need good nutrition.  But you're right.  It would be easier to not have to deal with the temptation of McDonald's.

You know damn well what we're talking about and no matter how much information is put in front of you, even the most blatant and outright atrocities, you can't help trying to spin the shit out of it.  I swear you remind me of the current administration.

You arrogant and obtuse man.   ::fuckoff::  ::puke::

[mbnh31782]

you will have people who are severely constipated not to mention dehydrated.  2 quarts of water isnt enough.[ This Message was edited by: mbnh31782 on 2006-06-20 14:49 ]

[TheWho]

Who, think about the point Deborah was trying to make with this challenge. These kids have their food severely limited while in the harshest of conditions most times. Little clothing and protection from the elements and the pittance they get has to be earned and can easily be taken away at the whim of the inexperienced counselor or group. Those not found to be line are often isolated within the isolation. They're shunned from the group for not behaving as expected. Not to mention the fact that these kids are in one of the major growth periods of their lives. The need good nutrition. But you're right. It would be easier to not have to deal with the temptation of McDonald's.

Anon, you are wrong, no specific program was mentioned.  I have experience with one wilderness program which is SUWS and they don?t do as you describe above.  There may be other wilderness programs that are like you describe but if that is what you mean you have to be specific.  Deborah never mentioned that the challenge was to isolate themselves and walk around with little clothing. I was trying to add to the challenge because I knew someone who had done that and some of the challenges that go along with it.
Why cant you see that instead of getting so angry.  Go back and reread the challenge and read what I said, there is no arrogance.  I was trying to be helpful.

[Deborah]

Two quarts seemed sufficient, given that Utah Licensing only requires a minimum of 3 in temps above 90*.
I know these people aren't hiking around the desert in +90* temps!!

"In temperatures above 90 degrees F., staff shall make sure consumer intake is a minimum of three quarts of water per day, electrolyte replacement shall be available with the expeditionary group at all times."

Who, no bitching and moaning about how hard it will be, either you're up for it or not. What a pansy, it's not like you have to march in blazing heat or sub zero temperatures, too. Or learn to build a fire before you can eat them cooked.

Doesn't matter that you don't like lentils. Some kids have never even seen a lentil, and sure as hell don't 'like' them. If you don't like lentils, guess you're limited to oats and rice. But, you won't get the full effect of the challenge- eating things you don't like.

Ya think it's any easier for them cause they're in the woods? If you need a support group, get Karen and few others and start one up. Bitch amongst yourselves. Not here.


[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-06-20 15:37 ]

[Deborah]

***I have experience with one wilderness program which is SUWS and they don?t do as you describe above.

It's your word against many, who actually experienced it.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... art=0&Sort

Here's a couple of descriptive ones:
I was in Aspen's wilderness program in southern Utah for 2 1/2 months in the winter 0f 1994. I was subjected to long periods of forced fasting, and solitary placement, as well as malnourished severely. It doesn't surprise me to hear people say that they save money by skimping on the kids, because when I was there, we didn't even have real backpacks; we were forced to carry around tarps wrapped up with seatbelt straps on our shoulders, always at weights above 80 pounds.

? witholding of food and water to physical restraints all the way to serious danger from exposure and exhaustion. I was in no way an easy kid to deal with at that time, but I was also detoxing from a serious Herion and Cocaine problem, and was denied any type of medical assitance. Other members of my group who refused to eat or drink would still be marched up to and exceeding 10 miles a day, and many of them collapsed and were injured. On a solo period a boy in my group was cooking unsupervised with pork fat and received 3rd degree burns on his legs and pelvis. When I collapsed on the second day from lack of food(they give you no food for the first 72nd-ish hours), I was dragged by my backpack (which consisted of nothing more than a tarp tied together with a seatbelt strap, and weighing 100lbs.) for almost a mile over rocks and through dessert plants and the occasional stream, and all of this while only weighing 120lbs. myself

There are many more where that came from. Search WWF for SUWS.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 15:24:00, TheWho wrote:


Anon, you are wrong, no specific program was mentioned.  I have experience with one wilderness program which is SUWS and they don?t do as you describe above.  There may be other wilderness programs that are like you describe but if that is what you mean you have to be specific.  Deborah never mentioned that the challenge was to isolate themselves and walk around with little clothing. I was trying to add to the challenge because I knew someone who had done that and some of the challenges that go along with it.

Why cant you see that instead of getting so angry.  Go back and reread the challenge and read what I said, there is no arrogance.  I was trying to be helpful.

"

No you weren't, you're just passive agressive.  You remind me of my step-mother.  You're well aware of the various types of programs that many of us here have been through, the trauma it's inflicted on us etc.  You should know that there is a big difference in you being able to go about your normal life and choose to do this little experiment and the kids who have no choice in the matter and are doing it under completely different circumstances.  You just enjoy how people get riled up at your refusal to see anything that we're talking about.  When you first came on here I did have some respect for you even though we completely disagreed on most points but now I see you for what you are.   I should have just stopped at your steadfast refusal to see what went on at Star Ranch (I think that's the name).  If you can't even acknowledge that then there's really no point in continuing.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-20 15:35:00, Deborah wrote:

"Two quarts seemed sufficient, given that Utah Licensing only requires a minimum of 3 in temps above 90*.

I know these people aren't hiking around the desert in +90* temps!!



"In temperatures above 90 degrees F., staff shall make sure consumer intake is a minimum of three quarts of water per day, electrolyte replacement shall be available with the expeditionary group at all times."



Who, no bitching and moaning about how hard it will be, either you're up for it or not. What a pansy, it's not like you have to march in blazing heat or sub zero temperatures, too. Or learn to build a fire before you can eat them cooked.



Doesn't matter that you don't like lentils. Some kids have never even seen a lentil, and sure as hell don't 'like' them. If you don't like lentils, guess you're limited to oats and rice. But, you won't get the full effect of the challenge- eating things you don't like.



Ya think it's any easier for them cause they're in the woods? If you need a support group, get Karen and few others and start one up. Bitch amongst yourselves. Not here.





[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-06-20 15:37 ]"

Ha,Ha, thats funny.  I think you missed my post.  It must be the moon, everyone is so confrontational today.  We never got as far as when and who was doing the challenge.  Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation.  As a minimum I would like to learn to start a fire from scratch

[Anonymous]

Douse yourself in gasoline and light a match.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 16:08:00, TheWho wrote:


Ha,Ha, thats funny.  I think you missed my post.  It must be the moon, everyone is so confrontational today.  We never got as far as when and who was doing the challenge.  Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation.  As a minimum I would like to learn to start a fire from scratch



"

One of the main objectives in these places is to let the kids know they're not in charge.  They're purposely taken down a peg or two.  It's not to go learn to start fires, get close to the other kids, do any soul searching or any other of the fucking touchy feely descriptives you want to use.  It's about showing the kids whos boss, period.  

Who, there's no way in hell you could even begin to comprehend what we went through.  You lack the capacity.

[TheWho]

I understand that people were hurt in the past (12 years ago) and there is nothing funny about it and you see it as my word against many, but it is clearly not the case.

Deborah and anon you can name any institution from a church to a school to a business and someone can come up with testimonials of abuse or how the school hurt them.  We all know that, we are not playing dumb.  I admit that abuses happen and the schools need to continually improve and change.  What continues to amaze me is that no one acknowledges the good the school has done for so many,  It has to be black and white with you.
Even though it is statistically nearly impossible for these institutions to continue to thrive and grow without ever producing success and no one here can see that just one kid has benefited.  We continue to hear , oh the parents a duped, don?t know whats going on?.their kids are being abused but wont tell them?.etc
If someone does do well , we hear , wait a few years it will change.  This is your out so you don?t have to deal with a success story or you produce a fornits link to person who had a bad experience 12 years ago.  I make lite of the conversation sometimes because it seems crazy to me that everyone truly believes that every kid is handcuffed and chained and dragged off to these programs, abused and no kids are coming forward, every program is the same to you.
If someone mentions an improvement in a particular program there is no interest, if someone kills themselves fornits lights up like a 5 cent slot machine, go figure, shows where the interest is and how many are serious about helping the kids.
So if you see me laugh it is out of frustration that many of you are stuck in neutral and don?t seem to care about the kids out there that need help.

[Deborah]

***Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation.

Wrong, no one suggested that be part of the challenge. The details were simple. You either choose to experience a small sampling of what your child went through or you wimp out.
If you're wimping out, why?

[TheWho]

One of the main objectives in these places is to let the kids know they're not in charge. They're purposely taken down a peg or two. It's not to go learn to start fires, get close to the other kids, do any soul searching or any other of the fucking touchy feely descriptives you want to use. It's about showing the kids whos boss, period.

Who, there's no way in hell you could even begin to comprehend what we went through. You lack the capacity.

So you are really trying to make us believe that when the business plan went in for approval the starters of the business said ?lets figure out a way to make ourselves look big and feel in charge and maybe take kids down a peg or 2 and make money at the same time,  maybe we will make them build fires and deprive them of food so we can sit around and laugh while we charge their parents?

and you believe that is their goal?