Challenge for Wilderness Supporters

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-20 16:45:00, Deborah wrote:

"***Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation.



Wrong, no one suggested that be part of the challenge. The details were simple. You either choose to experience a small sampling of what your child went through or you wimp out.

If you're wimping out, why? "

Okay, I'm in.  How many do we need in the study to make it meaningful would you think?  Minimum sample sizes are typically 13 if I remember correctly.

[Anonymous]

And I continue to be amazed at your refusal to see that these programs are fucked FROM THE INCEPTION!!!  Yes, some kids are able to come through it relatively unscathed but that does not negate the vast majority, IMO, that have been harmed.  I'v e stated a couple of times just in the past few days that it's not just the physical abuse.  There are programs where that doesn't seem to be a problem but that doesn't mean they're helpful or even safe.  The damage that was the most difficult for me to deal with came from the emotional and mental abuse.  I was never beaten but I sure was fucked up for years afterward.  There are 5 other people that went to the same place I did at the same time that I still stay in touch with.  Two are family members.  One has been married 5 times, she's 40.  Her brother has two kids that he won't let out of his sight, literally.  They (15 and 12) are not allowed to spend the night anywhere including with family members.  A couple that met in there are both considered very successful.  Both nurses, raising two kids, nice house, well respected etc.  After 10 years of marriage it comes out that the husband has been seeing hookers once or twice a week the entire marriage and the wife decided 5 years ago that she was gay and began affairs with her friends.  The last has been in and out of jail or rehab since getting out over 20 years ago.  The point in telling you about all these people is that the damage from these places manifests itself in many different forms.  The nursing couple I spoke of have both been 'sober' ever since getting out 20+ years ago.  The program people consider them a great success.  Never mind that they were so traumatized by what happened in there that their lives have completely fallen apart....they're sober dammit!  It worked, damned the price.

I've spent the last 20 years trying to figure out what I did that was so god awful that I needed to be sent away for 2 years.  Trying to live up to some unrealistic idea of the perfect child taht my parents had and that was reinforced in that place.  It absolutely destroyed my family in so many ways that I didn't even begin to understand until about 5 years ago.  You dont understand taht this is one of the most important periods in a person's development.  You start mucking around inside their head and you're playing with fire.

It's not just a decade or more ago.  It's happening now, all the time.  You've been here long enough to see the recent reports of deaths at the various camps.

Obtuse. ::noway::

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 16:49:00, TheWho wrote:


So you are really trying to make us believe that when the business plan went in for approval the starters of the business said ?lets figure out a way to make ourselves look big and feel in charge and maybe take kids down a peg or 2 and make money at the same time,  maybe we will make them build fires and deprive them of food so we can sit around and laugh while we charge their parents?



and you believe that is their goal?

"

No, what I'm saying is that people like Ken Kay, Miller Newton and the like have some sick messaiah complex.  They thrive on being viewed as the savior, the guru, the all knowing.  They also have incredible egos and do enjoy showing people that they're in charge, they're number 1 and they enjoy proving that when challenged.  Teens, especially in these circumstances, will push and challenge.  These 'gurus' sell themselves as having 'the cure', the 'solution'.....they alone have what you need.  The amount of power and control they wield over not just the kids lives but the entire family is quite intoxicating.  I've seen it up close.  Watched leaders rise up in the ranks and get better and better at what they do.  Unfortunately that means they become more and more dangerous.

You don't get it and I hold out little hope that you ever will.

[Deborah]

You're lying, manipulating, and distracting from the topic, and that slot machine comment was just down right rude.
No more rice. Guess you're down to oats.

Search SUWS for recent accounts. And don't come back with how they've 'changed' all that. The truth is, you are not in a position to claim that they have changed a thing. In fact, you can't say with any degree of certainty exactly what your daughter experienced. You weren't there. And for that matter, you can not fathom how she might think of it five years down the road.
Just a tip- kids are reluctant to talk about abusive and humiliating things that have happened to them with anyone they don't trust, especially parents who are gung-ho program.
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-06-20 17:29 ]

[Anonymous]

They also might really buy into it and not understand what was done to them for a number of years depending on how deeply the surrounding family has drunk from the Kool Aid pitcher.  For a long time after I got out I thought I deserved what I got.  After all, I was a rebellious teen, right?  I excused away all the horrible things that were said and done to me in there as part of the 'process' of getting me straightened out.  It honestly wasn't until I had significant time away from that kind of thinking that I really began to understand what I had been through.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-20 16:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"And I continue to be amazed at your refusal to see that these programs are fucked FROM THE INCEPTION!!!  Yes, some kids are able to come through it relatively unscathed but that does not negate the vast majority, IMO, that have been harmed.  I'v e stated a couple of times just in the past few days that it's not just the physical abuse.  There are programs where that doesn't seem to be a problem but that doesn't mean they're helpful or even safe.  The damage that was the most difficult for me to deal with came from the emotional and mental abuse.  I was never beaten but I sure was fucked up for years afterward.  There are 5 other people that went to the same place I did at the same time that I still stay in touch with.  Two are family members.  One has been married 5 times, she's 40.  Her brother has two kids that he won't let out of his sight, literally.  They (15 and 12) are not allowed to spend the night anywhere including with family members.  A couple that met in there are both considered very successful.  Both nurses, raising two kids, nice house, well respected etc.  After 10 years of marriage it comes out that the husband has been seeing hookers once or twice a week the entire marriage and the wife decided 5 years ago that she was gay and began affairs with her friends.  The last has been in and out of jail or rehab since getting out over 20 years ago.  The point in telling you about all these people is that the damage from these places manifests itself in many different forms.  The nursing couple I spoke of have both been 'sober' ever since getting out 20+ years ago.  The program people consider them a great success.  Never mind that they were so traumatized by what happened in there that their lives have completely fallen apart....they're sober dammit!  It worked, damned the price.



I've spent the last 20 years trying to figure out what I did that was so god awful that I needed to be sent away for 2 years.  Trying to live up to some unrealistic idea of the perfect child taht my parents had and that was reinforced in that place.  It absolutely destroyed my family in so many ways that I didn't even begin to understand until about 5 years ago.  You dont understand taht this is one of the most important periods in a person's development.  You start mucking around inside their head and you're playing with fire.



It's not just a decade or more ago.  It's happening now, all the time.  You've been here long enough to see the recent reports of deaths at the various camps.



Obtuse. ::noway:: "

That?s what I mean?.  relatively unscathed? is about the best case scenario most see here.  I am just one person and I have witnessed several kids who turned completely around and are doing great.  I realize that there are places that abuse kids physically and mentally.  I also admit that I am not familiar with these places so I accept peoples account of them and I do not discard their experiences.  It seems TBS are different than the other RTCs because the accounts of mental and physical abuse don?t seem to be prevalent in TBS as they are in other places i.e. army camps, boot camps, RTC?s.  It seems to me that maybe there should be a distinction made between some of these places, maybe categorize them differently, they are not all bad places and they are not all the same.
I here of broken bones, days in isolation, lack of food, kids trying to commit suicide, slamming their heads into the ground, counselors abusing the kids, jumping out of windows to escape, kids being dragged out of their house etc. and I believe this occurs, but they don?t occur at every TBS or maybe none.  ASR is so different than the stories you read here but all the stories fall on deaf ears.

[TheWho]

No, what I'm saying is that people like Ken Kay, Miller Newton and the like have some sick messaiah complex. They thrive on being viewed as the savior, the guru, the all knowing. They also have incredible egos and do enjoy showing people that they're in charge, they're number 1 and they enjoy proving that when challenged. Teens, especially in these circumstances, will push and challenge. These 'gurus' sell themselves as having 'the cure', the 'solution'.....they alone have what you need. The amount of power and control they wield over not just the kids lives but the entire family is quite intoxicating. I've seen it up close. Watched leaders rise up in the ranks and get better and better at what they do. Unfortunately that means they become more and more dangerous.

Yes, that I can believe and if the power goes unchecked and unchallenged then it can become dangerous.  People should be forced to rotate in and out of the power positions so this doesn?t occur or serve only so many years, I see what you are saying, good point.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 17:27:00, TheWho wrote:

That?s what I mean?.  relatively unscathed? is about the best case scenario most see here.

It's about the best we can hope for.


 

I am just one person and I have witnessed several kids who turned completely around and are doing great.

Just like all the program parents I know thought that the two nurses had completely turned their lives around.  They looked like the perfect advertisement for the place.  Little did everyone know.

I realize that there are places that abuse kids physically and mentally.  I also admit that I am not familiar with these places so I accept peoples account of them and I do not discard their experiences.  It seems TBS are different than the other RTCs because the accounts of mental and physical abuse don?t seem to be prevalent in TBS as they are in other places i.e. army camps, boot camps, RTC?s.  It seems to me that maybe there should be a distinction made between some of these places, maybe categorize them differently, they are not all bad places and they are not all the same.

They all use the same basic methodology that all therapeutic communities use....from Synanon.  It's flawed from the inception.  This is getting redundant.

I here of broken bones, days in isolation, lack of food, kids trying to commit suicide, slamming their heads into the ground, counselors abusing the kids, jumping out of windows to escape, kids being dragged out of their house etc. and I believe this occurs, but they don?t occur at every TBS or maybe none.  ASR is so different than the stories you read here but all the stories fall on deaf ears.

"

Yes, well you've also heard me state several times that I wasn't beaten but the psychological effects were far worse IMO (levels, seminars, LGATs etc).  That little tidbit seems to have fallen on your deaf ears.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 17:34:00, TheWho wrote:


Yes, that I can believe and if the power goes unchecked and unchallenged then it can become dangerous.  People should be forced to rotate in and out of the power positions so this doesn?t occur or serve only so many years, I see what you are saying, good point.

"

But it doesn't happen.  Just like politics the ones who want to be in charge are the one's who should NEVER be in charge.  They just keep changing names, places or whatever else will get the heat off then continue on business as usual.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-20 17:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-06-20 17:27:00, TheWho wrote:


That?s what I mean?.  relatively unscathed? is about the best case scenario most see here.

It's about the best we can hope for.





 

I am just one person and I have witnessed several kids who turned completely around and are doing great.

Just like all the program parents I know thought that the two nurses had completely turned their lives around.  They looked like the perfect advertisement for the place.  Little did everyone know.

I realize that there are places that abuse kids physically and mentally.  I also admit that I am not familiar with these places so I accept peoples account of them and I do not discard their experiences.  It seems TBS are different than the other RTCs because the accounts of mental and physical abuse don?t seem to be prevalent in TBS as they are in other places i.e. army camps, boot camps, RTC?s.  It seems to me that maybe there should be a distinction made between some of these places, maybe categorize them differently, they are not all bad places and they are not all the same.

They all use the same basic methodology that all therapeutic communities use....from Synanon.  It's flawed from the inception.  This is getting redundant.

I here of broken bones, days in isolation, lack of food, kids trying to commit suicide, slamming their heads into the ground, counselors abusing the kids, jumping out of windows to escape, kids being dragged out of their house etc. and I believe this occurs, but they don?t occur at every TBS or maybe none.  ASR is so different than the stories you read here but all the stories fall on deaf ears.


"

Yes, well you've also heard me state several times that I wasn't beaten but the psychological effects were far worse IMO (levels, seminars, LGATs etc).  That little tidbit seems to have fallen on your deaf ears."

Well I guess we are at different ends of a normal curve.  But that is okay, everyone has to follow what they believe and I respect your position.  Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools and more and more kids benefiting from them.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 17:42:00, TheWho wrote:

Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools and more and more kids benefiting from them."

Nice dreams. :smokin:

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-20 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-06-20 17:42:00, TheWho wrote:


Hopefully someday you will see the fruits from some of these schools and more and more kids benefiting from them."

Nice dreams. :smokin: "

Yeah, I know, but someone has to take the high road.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 17:47:00, TheWho wrote:


Yeah, I know, but someone has to take the high road."

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[Deborah]

***It seems TBS are different than the other RTCs because the accounts of mental and physical abuse don?t seem to be prevalent in TBS as they are in other places i.e. army camps, boot camps, RTC?s.

No they're not. I know you've read the HLA forum, sister school to ASR. They work very hard to set themselves apart from the low-dollar facilities.
I'm embarassed to admit, that they even had me convinced for a while that they might be 'better'. And while they are somewhat better than say, Tranquility Bay, they're just more covert with their abuses. The same methods and techniques are at work in all of these programs, because they all sprouted from the same seed.

And yes, I do believe those who start these programs think that way. They follow the leader, a pattern or industry blueprint. Most cut their teeth working in some other program. They aren't looking at new research and improving- although I do believe they improve their methods of deceiving parents and abusing children when they congregate at association meetings. As parents get wiser, they must get more wiley. They make small concessions if/when their customers (parents- more than a few) demand it. They know what they have to do to break these kids.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-20 16:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-06-20 16:08:00, TheWho wrote:



Ha,Ha, thats funny.  I think you missed my post.  It must be the moon, everyone is so confrontational today.  We never got as far as when and who was doing the challenge.  Still working out the details, we had one poster who wanted to limit clothing and have the challengers placed in isolation.  As a minimum I would like to learn to start a fire from scratch





"

One of the main objectives in these places is to let the kids know they're not in charge.  They're purposely taken down a peg or two.  It's not to go learn to start fires, get close to the other kids, do any soul searching or any other of the fucking touchy feely descriptives you want to use.  It's about showing the kids whos boss, period.  



Who, there's no way in hell you could even begin to comprehend what we went through.  You lack the capacity."

u really dont get it
maybe part of the idea at some places is to show whos boss, but that isnt the only or even the main idea