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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2006, 09:23:00 PM »
Call it that if you like if you don't first hand know the industry.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2006, 10:48:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-14 16:30:00, TheWho wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-05-13 23:58:00, Deborah wrote:



"Who,



Show me where I "presented a list of kids who committed suicide at TBS?s and there were names on the list that should not have been there" and I'll drudge up your comments on suicide. Please show where I "fudged the numbers".



I certainly was not comparing TBS suicides to national suicides.



You harped on and on about TBSs being safer than public schools, which was clearly not the case.



Have you forgotten the study you posted which stated that 1 in a million kids died at public schools? While the same year 1 in 2,300 died in programs?



You say I lost credibility... I'm beginning to wonder if you aren't a few bricks short of a full load or just a habitual liar and manipulator. If you have a faulty memory or selective memory. Either way, I'm getting bored with restating my comments everytime you misquote me, or state that we've reached consensus when no such thing has ocurred. It's like trying to debate with a two year old.  







I just had the wildest thought. Is Who a human being or actually a computer that spits out programmed responses.















[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-05-14 00:07 ]"




Quote
Deborah says:

The report you provided claimed that of the 52 million kids attending public school, there was less than 1 suicide/homicide per million, while at school or in transit.



Compared to:

Programs 1 per 2,308- very rough guess.



And Nationally, which would include all the kids in both sets:

1 per 31,859 suicides and 1 per 27,403 homicides.



Who asks: Did all 13 of these children commit suicide on campus or while at residence?



Quote
Deborah says:

1 Suicide, at home, resulting from a threat to be returned to the program. The others were homicides. That?s ?my? judgment. No legal convictions.

Which means those deaths would not be included in the national ?homicide? number. They?ll be chalked up to accidents.



So when you tried to compare national statistics  to TBS?s for the year 1999 ? 2000

There were ?Zero?  suicides and ?Zero ?Homicides?  but you decided to change the numbers based on your personal judgment and pick the number 13.  The national numbers did not track ?Accidents? you cant use these numbers.



So the real statistic is no homicides or suicides occurred at a TBS during the year June 1999 ? thru June 2000.  I called you on this and then let it go ?as you can read in the link  provided?





http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 960#182398





[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-14 16:31 ]"


Semantics.
I don't consider heat stroke and suffocation resulting from restraint to be 'accidents'. And if your daughter had been a victim of one of these 'accidents', I doubt that you would either. But then, 'Who' knows... perhaps you would.
Kids in public school are not routinely physically restrained or marched to death.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #47 on: May 15, 2006, 01:10:00 PM »
Quote
Deborah wrote:
Semantics.
I don't consider heat stroke and suffocation resulting from restraint to be 'accidents'. And if your daughter had been a victim of one of these 'accidents', I doubt that you would either. But then, 'Who' knows... perhaps you would.
Kids in public school are not routinely physically restrained or marched to death.


So if you want to change the definitions you have to change it across the field and include national data (i.e. kids who died of heat stroke and suffocation etc.) and then compare the two so that you are comparing apple and apples or have the classifications changed. There are probably many kids who are forced to run extra laps and die of heat stroke etc. you have to include these numbers.

Until that is straightened out the only numbers we have, for TBS?s are 0 Homicides and 0 suicides (as defined by NECS), which is an order of magnitude lower than national averages, which makes TBS's a much safer place to be.

You should be very clear what your boundary conditions are:  You stated a child committed suicide at home because he didn?t want to go to a TBS school, how is that documented?  If a child dies at a TBS but was afraid to go home how is this classified and how do you document and get consensus?
This is why there are standards and classifications so that numbers can be compared, Deborah, you can?t change the rules to suit a preconceived out come.  It is a clear case of fudging the data
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Offline Badpuppy

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« Reply #48 on: May 15, 2006, 04:38:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-14 17:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-05-13 19:46:00, Nihilanthic wrote:


"So your spin on this is somehow a kid sent to a TBS should be more likely to commit suicide, but have no evidence why, just a hunch, becuase the suicide rate is more or less the same as the national average?





 :lol: Do horses sniff your hands for grasping at straws so much?






Considering there are no hard facts
about TBSs AT ALL regarding their effectiveness, or the population of children going in (and why they are) except they tend to be white, adopted, and have rich or wealthy parents, all your assertions, hunches, and inductive reasoning to try to explain your forgone conclusions are what the laymen call "bullshit".





Get some proof or GTFO, please. "




so why do we keep readiing that there is tons of PROOF that programs don't work and actually do harm [and i agree some programs will harm - but hardly all] but dont see ANY proof, much less proof of the same standard u demand???????"

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/m ... /sec7.html THIS IS A PARTIAL LIST OF THE STUDIES. READ IT AND WEEP.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #49 on: May 15, 2006, 05:03:00 PM »
There is virtually no evidence finding TBS's to be effective because there are virtually no studies that include a control group.

But there is tons of evidence that nearly every individual technique used by the "tough love" ones is ineffective and/or harmful.

For example, the boot camp model-- Justice Department has a nice 1998 meta-analysis showing it to be no more effective than prison.  Same study finds no evidence to support use of wilderness.

And don't go citing the later OBHIC study-- no control group, doesn't count.  there is a very nice review on their site or one that links to their research showing that the better the methodology of a wilderness program study, the less likely it is to show effectiveness.  Not a good sign!

Let's look at the "personal growth" seminars--  the research on this is that they get high grades from participants for satisfaction afterwards.  however, if you use a control group, you see no actual psychological or behavioral change.  and, there are numerous case reports of psychological damage-- some of which have involved completed suicides and some of which lead to massive legal judgments.  

Yup, those are anecdotes-- but they appear regularly enough that it would be unethical to do the controlled trials needed to absolutely prove causality since there is no evidence of positive benefit.  The promoters of these seminars for regular people, in fact, now try to dissuade people on meds or with any psychiatric history from participating voluntarily which is a tacit acknowledgment of the danger-- and yet they are mandated by these programs for both troubled kids and their parents.

Now, let's look at the core of therapy even in some of the "best" programs-- the confrontational group in which teens attack each other's flaws in an attempt to "break" denial and push positive change.  Guess what-- huge literature on how this backfires in the addictions field.  See William Miller, see Phoenix House's own most recent manuals which discourage it based on their own internal findings, see the original Synanon study by Liebermann et al. which found Synanon was linked with the highest number of bad outcomes.  9.1% had lasting psychological damage.

Oh, and if you're still not convinced that there's more evidence against TBS's than in favor of them, look at the whole inpatient v. outpatient debate in the addictions (solidly in favor of outpatient for all but the most extreme cases), the literature on how aggregrating troubled kids tends to produce bad outcomes (see Dishion, When Interventions Harm for review-- more recently, see Szcaponik and Liddle) and the NIH consensus statement on what works best to fight teen violence and delinquency.  It's community based care like various evidence-based family therapies, not inpt that has research support.

And btw, even if TBS's were effective than ordinary schools at suicide prevention, you would expect them to have a higher than normal suicide rate afterwards because you would HOPE that they were seeing a population that was far more troubled than the general school population, and that being the case, unless the intervention was more powerful than any known intervention in psychiatry, the suicide rate in that group without any treatment effect, positive or negative, would be higher than the general high school rate and only the most massively successful result would be able to return it to the level of average risk.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2006, 08:12:00 PM »
Who, it is impossible to compare apples to apples because kids in the real world are not force marched in austere weather and denied water, nor are they routinely restrained for the convenience of staff or denied medical attention. As a matter of fact, around here, teacher can't even touch a child.

Over 100 kids have died in residential care. And yes, there have been suicides. I quoted the data for one year. The 'suicide' was a kid who was home from a program and killed himself when his mother threatened to send him back- took the gun from 'on top of the refrigerator' and shot himself. In addition, there have been untold numbers of suicide attempts, molestations and rape, all manner of hazing, broken bones and death from suffocation during restraints, amputations from frostbite, digestive problems, ... the list goes on.

I know of atleast two deaths that were not covered by the media. 'Accidents' and injuries are also not covered, and we won't have any 'firm' numbers until all facilities that warehouse kids 24/7 are required to be licensed and report such incidents to the authorities. If you care about the kids, then support any legislation that would make this a requirement.

The 'data' wasn't 'fudged'. Thirteen kids dead that year alone. We simply have different definitions of homicide dear. I don't agree with you, the national averages are not higher. TBSs are not safer. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2006, 08:25:00 PM »
Quote
Until that is straightened out the only numbers we have, for TBS?s are 0 Homicides and 0 suicides (as defined by NECS), which is an order of magnitude lower than national averages, which makes TBS's a much safer place to be.


You are insane... I knew people at SCL a few years ago when a girl hung herself. I have friends who were at TB when a girl chucked herself off the balcony. You live in a delusional world... it's because of parents like you these places are in business.
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2006, 08:28:00 PM »
Sounds like they are trying hard to keep that acceptable window of loss acceptable, no matter how many fall through it.

ST parents - how many will need to die in the care of a program before you will recognize there is indeed a problem?

Why do kids have to die of exposure; and dehydration, and suffocation and trauma?

How many must die such callous and needless deaths, before you'll acknowledge there is a problem with the philosophy; a problem with the therapeutic administration of pain and suffering?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2006, 08:29:00 PM »
I think part of the problem is that it's a NON-therapeutic admission process, done by friends & family of Lichfield on a for-profit commission basis.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #54 on: May 15, 2006, 09:06:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-15 17:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

Until that is straightened out the only numbers we have, for TBS?s are 0 Homicides and 0 suicides (as defined by NECS), which is an order of magnitude lower than national averages, which makes TBS's a much safer place to be.



You are insane... I knew people at SCL a few years ago when a girl hung herself. I have friends who were at TB when a girl chucked herself off the balcony. You live in a delusional world... it's because of parents like you these places are in business."


He is talking June 1999 thru June 2000
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Offline Troll Control

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« Reply #55 on: May 15, 2006, 09:18:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-15 14:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"



There is virtually no evidence finding TBS's to be effective because there are virtually no studies that include a control group.



But there is tons of evidence that nearly every individual technique used by the "tough love" ones is ineffective and/or harmful.



For example, the boot camp model-- Justice Department has a nice 1998 meta-analysis showing it to be no more effective than prison.  Same study finds no evidence to support use of wilderness.



And don't go citing the later OBHIC study-- no control group, doesn't count.  there is a very nice review on their site or one that links to their research showing that the better the methodology of a wilderness program study, the less likely it is to show effectiveness.  Not a good sign!



Let's look at the "personal growth" seminars--  the research on this is that they get high grades from participants for satisfaction afterwards.  however, if you use a control group, you see no actual psychological or behavioral change.  and, there are numerous case reports of psychological damage-- some of which have involved completed suicides and some of which lead to massive legal judgments.  



Yup, those are anecdotes-- but they appear regularly enough that it would be unethical to do the controlled trials needed to absolutely prove causality since there is no evidence of positive benefit.  The promoters of these seminars for regular people, in fact, now try to dissuade people on meds or with any psychiatric history from participating voluntarily which is a tacit acknowledgment of the danger-- and yet they are mandated by these programs for both troubled kids and their parents.



Now, let's look at the core of therapy even in some of the "best" programs-- the confrontational group in which teens attack each other's flaws in an attempt to "break" denial and push positive change.  Guess what-- huge literature on how this backfires in the addictions field.  See William Miller, see Phoenix House's own most recent manuals which discourage it based on their own internal findings, see the original Synanon study by Liebermann et al. which found Synanon was linked with the highest number of bad outcomes.  9.1% had lasting psychological damage.



Oh, and if you're still not convinced that there's more evidence against TBS's than in favor of them, look at the whole inpatient v. outpatient debate in the addictions (solidly in favor of outpatient for all but the most extreme cases), the literature on how aggregrating troubled kids tends to produce bad outcomes (see Dishion, When Interventions Harm for review-- more recently, see Szcaponik and Liddle) and the NIH consensus statement on what works best to fight teen violence and delinquency.  It's community based care like various evidence-based family therapies, not inpt that has research support.



And btw, even if TBS's were effective than ordinary schools at suicide prevention, you would expect them to have a higher than normal suicide rate afterwards because you would HOPE that they were seeing a population that was far more troubled than the general school population, and that being the case, unless the intervention was more powerful than any known intervention in psychiatry, the suicide rate in that group without any treatment effect, positive or negative, would be higher than the general high school rate and only the most massively successful result would be able to return it to the level of average risk."


This is a great explanation with strong references.  I have posted this information several times before while arguing the point with The Who.  

He will just ignore this and go on to the next subject or will say "Valerie Shapiro and Dave Marcus say otherwise," or "The proof is in the pudding.  I know several kids who are doing great after ASR," but can provide not a solitary shred of corroborative evidence other than "Because I said so."

You see, scientific evidence means nothing to the "faith crowd."  These are the same people who advocate abstinence-only sex education and intelligent design.  No amount of of scientific proof can dislodge them from their postions because they don't rely on evidence or logic to form their opinions.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #56 on: May 15, 2006, 09:21:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-15 17:12:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Who, it is impossible to compare apples to apples because kids in the real world are not force marched in austere weather and denied water, nor are they routinely restrained for the convenience of staff or denied medical attention. As a matter of fact, around here, teacher can't even touch a child.



Over 100 kids have died in residential care. And yes, there have been suicides. I quoted the data for one year. The 'suicide' was a kid who was home from a program and killed himself when his mother threatened to send him back- took the gun from 'on top of the refrigerator' and shot himself. In addition, there have been untold numbers of suicide attempts, molestations and rape, all manner of hazing, broken bones and death from suffocation during restraints, amputations from frostbite, digestive problems, ... the list goes on.



I know of atleast two deaths that were not covered by the media. 'Accidents' and injuries are also not covered, and we won't have any 'firm' numbers until all facilities that warehouse kids 24/7 are required to be licensed and report such incidents to the authorities. If you care about the kids, then support any legislation that would make this a requirement.



The 'data' wasn't 'fudged'. Thirteen kids dead that year alone. We simply have different definitions of homicide dear. I don't agree with you, the national averages are not higher. TBSs are not safer. We'll have to agree to disagree.





"


Yes, you can define it anyway you want, but one needs to be consistant, all I am saying is if you are counting kids who died due to heat exhaustion, kids who were thinking they may have to go to a TBS, you have to consider the same population on the other end.  Kids who were at a TBS and commited suicide because they didnt want to go back to the hell hole they came from, kids who died of heat exhaustion,  Kids in public school who died at home because they did not want to go back to school etc.

Define the boundary conditions and apply it across the board to the public sector as well as the private.  Otherwise you cannot compare, you can ask anyone, it is not valid data.  Until your new conditions are established we need to stay with the National results.

I understand your point but you cant just make it up as you go,Deborah, everybody would have a different result.  You have no one to back up your data except yourself
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2006, 09:25:00 PM »
You're a bullshit artist Who. Your user name should be Con.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2006, 09:47:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-15 18:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-05-15 17:25:00, Anonymous wrote:


"
Quote


Until that is straightened out the only numbers we have, for TBS?s are 0 Homicides and 0 suicides (as defined by NECS), which is an order of magnitude lower than national averages, which makes TBS's a much safer place to be.





You are insane... I knew people at SCL a few years ago when a girl hung herself. I have friends who were at TB when a girl chucked herself off the balcony. You live in a delusional world... it's because of parents like you these places are in business."




He is talking June 1999 thru June 2000"


How do you know what he's thinking? He doesn't know what he's thinking.
He's so apathetic on the topic, he has no clue about the deaths in programs- how many or the circumstances. Perhaps he would benefit from reading the gruesome details.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2006, 09:59:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-05-15 10:10:00, TheWho wrote:

"
Quote

Deborah wrote:

Semantics.

I don't consider heat stroke and suffocation resulting from restraint to be 'accidents'. And if your daughter had been a victim of one of these 'accidents', I doubt that you would either. But then, 'Who' knows... perhaps you would.

Kids in public school are not routinely physically restrained or marched to death.



So if you want to change the definitions you have to change it across the field and include national data (i.e. kids who died of heat stroke and suffocation etc.) and then compare the two so that you are comparing apple and apples or have the classifications changed. There are probably many kids who are forced to run extra laps and die of heat stroke etc. you have to include these numbers.



Until that is straightened out the only numbers we have, for TBS?s are 0 Homicides and 0 suicides (as defined by NECS), which is an order of magnitude lower than national averages, which makes TBS's a much safer place to be.



You should be very clear what your boundary conditions are:  You stated a child committed suicide at home because he didn?t want to go to a TBS school, how is that documented?  If a child dies at a TBS but was afraid to go home how is this classified and how do you document and get consensus?

This is why there are standards and classifications so that numbers can be compared, Deborah, you can?t change the rules to suit a preconceived out come.  It is a clear case of fudging the data

"


Who, I was referencing deaths when you brought in your studey on Suicide/Homicides in public schools. When that didn't pan out for you, you go off on a tangent claiming that I'm fudging the numbers and making it up as I go.
You're an impossible imbicile.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700