More struggling stupidity

[TheWho]

Come on, no reason pretending you don?t know why you got banned from ST.  It?s a different type of forum.  You are use to having full range to control and bully people if they start to make a good point or call you on some of your weak positions.  You get put in a corner and then cry foul with ?ad hominem? or ?Truthiness? which gives yourself a reason to invalidate another?s position (and avoid the questions) instead of being open minded and exchanging and recognizing each others positions.  They don?t want to put up with the crap there.  The type of discussion that goes on here at fornits isn?t normal  and would not be tolerated most places.

I think a good point was made that they will come here if they want the fornits perspective.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-05-12 14:06:00, TheWho wrote:

"Come on, no reason pretending you don?t know why you got banned from ST.  It?s a different type of forum.  You are use to having full range to control and bully people if they start to make a good point or call you on some of your weak positions.  You get put in a corner and then cry foul with ?ad hominem? or ?Truthiness? which gives yourself a reason to invalidate another?s position (and avoid the questions) instead of being open minded and exchanging and recognizing each others positions.  They don?t want to put up with the crap there.  The type of discussion that goes on here at fornits isn?t normal  and would not be tolerated most places.



I think a good point was made that they will come here if they want the fornits perspective.

"

Well said!

[Anonymous]

You nailed it, Who.  Who's on First!!

[Anonymous]

The only parents that continually post on ST are the ones who are only interested in hearing what they want to hear.  They're not looking for actual information, they're looking for a site with like-minded parents that will support and validate their decision to send the kid off.

Period.

[TheWho]

On 2006-05-12 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The only parents that continually post on ST are the ones who are only interested in hearing what they want to hear.  They're not looking for actual information, they're looking for a site with like-minded parents that will support and validate their decision to send the kid off.



Period."

Ya know, Julie, you dont need to sign your name anymore.  Too obvious.

Anyway , in a sense you are right, they are like minded in that they have similar problems and probably all have only a few options left on the table.  Unlike you most are very pragmatic and are seeking a solution which will have a high probability of succeeding for their child and it is annoying having someone like you screaming ?ew,Ew,ew, Mister Kotter, all these people want is a break from their kids, they don?t care,!!

They all care about their kids, we all know they care.  You really isolate yourself when you make those statements; you are so out of touch and lose credibility when you say that, why not debate and explain your position and listen to those who had other experiences?

[Anonymous]

On 2006-05-12 15:02:00, TheWho wrote:

"

On 2006-05-12 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:


"The only parents that continually post on ST are the ones who are only interested in hearing what they want to hear.  They're not looking for actual information, they're looking for a site with like-minded parents that will support and validate their decision to send the kid off.





Period."

Ya know, Julie, you dont need to sign your name anymore.  Too obvious.



Anyway , in a sense you are right, they are like minded in that they have similar problems and probably all have only a few options left on the table.  Unlike you most are very pragmatic and are seeking a solution which will have a high probability of succeeding for their child and it is annoying having someone like you screaming ?ew,Ew,ew, Mister Kotter, all these people want is a break from their kids, they don?t care,!!



They all care about their kids, we all know they care.  You really isolate yourself when you make those statements; you are so out of touch and lose credibility when you say that, why not debate and explain your position and listen to those who had other experiences?

"

Julie didn't write that.  You should know by now that she does sign her posts.  Hard to believe I know  :roll: but there are many of us who feel the same as she does.  I've "debated" this issue over and over again.  It always comes down to the same thing.  Most of the parents don't want to hear what we have to say.  They want someone to coddle them and tell them that what they did was Okey Dokey.  That's it in a nutshell.  

I imagine it would be very hard to admit that maybe you made a mistake and especially when that mistake has the possible fallout that it does.   Unfortunately, it'll be your kids paying the price in years to come...not you.

[Anonymous]

I think parents are willing to admit that they made a mistake.  However, most of the placements made by the parents on ST, after they have carefully researched the programs, are NOT mistakes. This does that mean that every kid emmerges emotionally healthy or that the kid doesn't struggle again in the future, but very few of the placements made in the last few years by ST parents have been viewed as a mistake. A few kids have had to change programs, and a few parents, including myself, have not been happy with all aspects of a program, but there have been no reports of abuse, contrarty to what you want to believe on this site.

[Lon Foolsbury]

Niles, I banned you on my site because you are a non tolerant person towards other people's problems. I think you should leave all the program stuff to the people who have first hand experiences with the programs. I feel you are also too young to understand. Hopefully, you will eventually understand at a later time in your life.If you do, I will welcome you back to my forum with open arms.

[TheWho]

Okay Julie, I?ll bite.

Most of the parents don't want to hear what we have to say.

I think they would if it was presented without anger and presumptions.  You have been here long enough and so have I to know that a parent is jumped on  as soon as they get get here (yeah I know boo hoo, lets not cry now that Johnny is gone).

The world is changing and so are the schools and most here at fornits are arguing from a point of view formed 30 plus years ago and as these schools evolve and improve the conversation stays still, the fences are coming down, the communication is being opened, the LGAT are being abandoned or phased out, diplomas are being handed out, extremely high percentage of (previously at-risk kids) are moving on to college at a rate higher than any local high school!!
We are down to the ?TBS?s are ineffective because we found 2 teachers who are not licensed or a counselor doesn?t have an advanced degree in psychology etc.?

Why not start recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of the industry and work towards helping this kids and adding value by improving these places instead of trying to tear them down?

Lets try to help the kids, not just winning an argument.

[TheWho]

last one was mine.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2006-05-12 15:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Okay Julie, I?ll bite.

Most of the parents don't want to hear what we have to say.

I think they would if it was presented without anger and presumptions.  You have been here long enough and so have I to know that a parent is jumped on  as soon as they get get here (yeah I know boo hoo, lets not cry now that Johnny is gone).



The world is changing and so are the schools and most here at fornits are arguing from a point of view formed 30 plus years ago and as these schools evolve and improve the conversation stays still, the fences are coming down, the communication is being opened, the LGAT are being abandoned or phased out, diplomas are being handed out, extremely high percentage of (previously at-risk kids) are moving on to college at a rate higher than any local high school!!

We are down to the ?TBS?s are ineffective because we found 2 teachers who are not licensed or a counselor doesn?t have an advanced degree in psychology etc.?



Why not start recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of the industry and work towards helping this kids and adding value by improving these places instead of trying to tear them down?



Lets try to help the kids, not just winning an argument.

"

• For one, confrontational, angry, and in your face is how these programs work on the kids. Cant take your own medicine? Also, you know what? No matter HOW you present it, if it involves them being wrong or the program being wrong, they act as if you are 'attacking them' because this stupid program is so important to them. And anyone wonders why we call it culty? :roll:
• Really, theyre changing because "the world is changing"? Wheres the proof of that? Thats just your assertion!! Communication is not being improved, LGATs are not being phased out, FAKE diplomas are sure being handed out at the least, and you know what else? You cant say jack shit about program kids going to college any more than highschool kids unless you had a control group with the same demographics as your program kids and did a study, which you didnt. LEARN STATISTICS
• No, we're NOT down to ?TBS?s are ineffective because we found 2 teachers who are not licensed or a counselor doesn?t have an advanced degree in psychology etc.?, we're down to "in 30 years of operation not one can prove its effective for a god damn thing, and when psychological and medical professionals examine programs they find out its ineffective for treatment and is merely coersive (abusive) behavior modification)
• The "strenghts and weaknesses" arguement is a fake duality. You dont keep a kid locked up in some program because it has the 'strength' of keeping them from drugs (to a point, but even that isnt a sure thing) or whatever when as a whole its abusive and inefffective. The coersive BM model itself is flawed and needs to be rejected. This is just sophistry and defence of programs for the sake of keeping them, instead of looking for what works. You have a forgone conclusion and a very thick skull.
• "Lets try to help the kids, not just winning an argument." SURE! Get over yourself, get over your programs, use what works, and stop defending something because of your stupid emotional attachments to it, grow up, and get real.

[Nihilanthic]

Oh, and so you dont keep blocking it out from the conversation by putting on the act of mental density and keep saying your bullshit assertions when we've presented proof on our side (yet the burden of proof is STILL ON YOU, which youve ben utterly unable to fulfill) ill post it here for easy clicking:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 620#195262

BTW, sources are cited... all you have are vacuous or just bullshit assertions and arguementative fallacies, aka truthiness.

So grow up or GTFO, ok?

[Deborah]

***the communication is being opened, the LGAT are being abandoned or phased out, diplomas are being handed out, extremely high percentage of (previously at-risk kids) are moving on to college at a rate higher than any local high school!!

Moving on to college is not such a monumental feat, given that the vast majority of program kids are white/middle class and have had a college fund since they were born. Provided of course their parents didn't cash it in to pay for their private incarceration.

If you read MySpace survivor sites you'll find many are flunking out- and/or determining that academia is not the path they want to persue.

Seriously, on what do you base the above statements? Kinda like your claim that there is a 'Skyrocketing Suicide Epidemic" amongst teens?

[Anonymous]

On 2006-05-12 15:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I think parents are willing to admit that they made a mistake.  However, most of the placements made by the parents on ST, after they have carefully researched the programs, are NOT mistakes. This does that mean that every kid emmerges emotionally healthy or that the kid doesn't struggle again in the future, but very few of the placements made in the last few years by ST parents have been viewed as a mistake. A few kids have had to change programs, and a few parents, including myself, have not been happy with all aspects of a program, but there have been no reports of abuse, contrarty to what you want to believe on this site."

Depends on how you define abuse.  IMO, sending a kid to that kind of an environment to have his behavior changed against his will does lasting damage no matter how pretty the package is wrapped up.  If more parents would really look into the seminars/LGATs etc. they'd run far and fast from those places.  Hell, even corporations are waking up to it.  The "team building" seminars that are so often referred to here by program supporters as some kind of a sign that it's OK and accepted (and which are supposedly a watered down version of what the kids experience), have come under fire as of late for being emotionally abusive and cult-like.  Hopefully the rest of America won't be far behind.   The emotional scars arent' realized for years after sometimes.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2006-05-12 18:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2006-05-12 15:16:00, Anonymous wrote:


"I think parents are willing to admit that they made a mistake.  However, most of the placements made by the parents on ST, after they have carefully researched the programs, are NOT mistakes. This does that mean that every kid emmerges emotionally healthy or that the kid doesn't struggle again in the future, but very few of the placements made in the last few years by ST parents have been viewed as a mistake. A few kids have had to change programs, and a few parents, including myself, have not been happy with all aspects of a program, but there have been no reports of abuse, contrarty to what you want to believe on this site."

Depends on how you define abuse.  IMO, sending a kid to that kind of an environment to have his behavior changed against his will does lasting damage no matter how pretty the package is wrapped up.  If more parents would really look into the seminars/LGATs etc. they'd run far and fast from those places.  Hell, even corporations are waking up to it.  The "team building" seminars that are so often referred to here by program supporters as some kind of a sign that it's OK and accepted (and which are supposedly a watered down version of what the kids experience), have come under fire as of late for being emotionally abusive and cult-like.  Hopefully the rest of America won't be far behind.   The emotional scars arent' realized for years after sometimes."

 :nworthy:  :nworthy:

Good to know. Hate to think Id have to deck a facilitator in a future career... not that I wouldnt thurougly enjoy getting that pink slip  :lol: