More struggling stupidity

[Deborah]

On 2006-05-13 17:32:00, TheWho wrote:

"You lost credibility when you presented a list of kids who committed suicide at TBS?s and there were names on the list that should not have been there because you started to see that the numbers were starting to show that the suicide rate at TBS?s is far below the national level and these schools are making a difference.  You could have dropped it but you had to fudge the numbers instead.  Its not right and your statement isn?t right."

Where's that link, Who? To the list of kids who committed suicide at TBSs containing names that shouldn't have been there.

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-05-15 19:32 ]

[TheWho]

On 2006-05-15 19:20:00, Deborah wrote:

"

On 2006-05-13 17:32:00, TheWho wrote:



"You lost credibility when you presented a list of kids who committed suicide at TBS?s and there were names on the list that should not have been there because you started to see that the numbers were starting to show that the suicide rate at TBS?s is far below the national level and these schools are making a difference.  You could have dropped it but you had to fudge the numbers instead.  Its not right and your statement isn?t right."

Where's that link, Who? To the list of kids who committed suicide at TBSs containing names that shouldn't have been there.



[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-05-15 19:32 ]"

We were talking about suicide and homicide rates, national vs. TBS and you responded with 1 suicide (which turned out to be someone not at a tbs at the time) and 12 Homicides all of which were never proven, these where just your personal opinion, you later admitted they would be considered categorized as accidental deaths. Timeframe June 1999 thru June 2000

Here is your link:

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 960#182398



Here is a recap:
Who asked:  
Did all 13 of these children commit suicide on campus or while at residence?

Deborah responded:

1 Suicide, at home, resulting from a threat to be returned to the program. The others were homicides. That?s ?my? judgment. No legal convictions.
Which means those deaths would not be included in the national ?homicide? number. They?ll be chalked up to accidents.


So none of them were Homicides or suicides at a TBS for that time period.

[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-15 20:30 ]

[Deborah]

Oh, so there was no list of kids who committed suicide at TBSs containing names that shouldn't have been there.

I knew that. Just wanted to confirm that you did too.

[TheWho]

On 2006-05-15 20:28:00, Deborah wrote:

"

Oh, so there was no list of kids who committed suicide at TBSs containing names that shouldn't have been there.



I knew that. Just wanted to confirm that you did too."

Read it Deborah.  You said 13 kids.

You counted a child who committed suicide at home.[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-15 20:34 ]

[Deborah]

On 2006-05-15 20:24:00, TheWho wrote:

"So none of them were Homicides or suicides at a TBS for that time period.

[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-15 20:30 ]"

Depends on who you ask, Who.
That's the crux of 'one' of the ongoing debates here, and elsewhere.
At the very least, they were unnecessary deaths, 100+ to date. What are you doing to prevent unnecessary deaths in teen residential warehouses?
You're a business man, or so you say. Why would you think facilities avoid licensing and the reporting of deaths, 'accidents', injuries, attacks, rape?
That should be public knowledge, like Consumer Reports... we need a Program Reports.

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-05-15 20:39 ]

[Deborah]

BTW, I originally wrote:

Read the report you posted, dude. You?re the one who?s still confused.
To repeat: Suicide/Homicide ocurring AT SCHOOL leveled off. Nationally, suicide/homicide declined.

Further, the report you cited claims:
that ?this translates into less than 1 homicide or suicide of a school-aged youth at school PER MILLION students enrolled during the 1999-2000 school year.? 52,000,000 were enrolled.
1 per MILLION.

The report you cited didn't address the issue we were discussing, but it did provide some good info- Kids are 70 times more likely to die while NOT in school.

Now let?s compare that to deaths in residential programs for the same time period:

13 deaths between June 99 and July 2000. We?ll have to ?guess? at the population of kids in programs. Let?s say 30,000, which is probably high.
That?s 1 per 2,308.

That should answer your ongoing musing about whether there is more violence/death in public schools than programs- in general.

Nationally 1 per 31,859 Suicides
1 in 27,403 Homicides
--------------------------------------------
       
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 945#182369


Focus on the next to last paragraph. I referenced 'Deaths' and whether TBSs were safer than public schools. YOU are the one who made this about, and keeps bringing it back to suicide.
 
I do not believe the kid would be dead if it hadn't been for a program. Nor do I believe the other twelve would be dead, based on national data. The odds are slim to none.

Those are my 'boundaries' Who. What are the odds those kids would be dead today?
1 in a million? I'd say a damn sight better than the odds at a warehouse/wilderness.

BTW, did you ever find out what source Marcus cited for "Skyrocketing Suicide Rates"?
Perhaps he was punked by Teen Screen as well.

[TheWho]

On 2006-05-15 20:36:00, Deborah wrote:

"On 2006-05-15 20:24:00, TheWho wrote:

"So none of them were Homicides or suicides at a TBS for that time period.



[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-15 20:30 ]"

Depends on who you ask, Who.

That's the crux of 'one' of the ongoing debates here, and elsewhere.

At the very least, they were unnecessary deaths, 100+ to date. What are you doing to prevent unnecessary deaths in teen residential warehouses?

You're a business man, or so you say. Why would you think facilities avoid licensing and the reporting of deaths, 'accidents', injuries, attacks, rape?

That should be public knowledge, like Consumer Reports... we need a Program Reports.



[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2006-05-15 20:39 ]"

I agree it is a problem and I would be the first to support the database of those kids names and protect the list, but people just cant add names to it because they "Feel" they were murdered or killed themselves because they were going back to a TBS, maybe they just got dumped by their girlfriend.
The most important part of a list is its integrity and boundary conditions.  If it isnt clear it doesnt mean anything, you can add a 1,000 names a day.  If 1 name is bogus it discredits the entire list and the people who keep and protect it.

If you wanted to compare, say, total number of deaths, that may work.  But the national data was Suicides and Homicides, you cant include those numbers.

[TheWho]

Deborah wrote:
Focus on the next to last paragraph. I referenced 'Deaths' and whether TBSs were safer than public schools. YOU are the one who made this about, and keeps bringing it back to suicide.

No, the national data was Suicides and Homicides (it wasnt my data).

The data did not include death by dehydration, heat exhaustion, natural death, accidents etc.  Just Suicides and homicides.  Your numbers can not be compared to this, it is very simple.  You would need to find a different study as a comparison. (But you would still have to leave the "suicide at home" out of your set)

[TheWho]

On 2006-05-15 22:12:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"That last post almost sounded like well as long as the poor little darlings don't hang themselves or their counselors hold their heads underwater for 45 minutes or so then all those program deaths are ok.



Force marching a kid through the desert until they die of dehydration is MURDER.



Smothering a kid to death in a restraint that ends up with the death of a child is MURDER.





Why are you so eager to protect abusers and murders?



You are strange puppy TheWho.

Speculations on the Origin of Human Intelligence: "In defense of the Pygmies, perhaps I should note that a friend of mine who has spent time with them says that for such activities as the patient stalking and hunting of mammals and fish they prepare themselves through marijuana intoxication, which helps to make the long waits, boring to anyone further evolved than a Komodo dragon, at least moderately tolerable. Ganja is, he says, their only cultivated crop. It would be wryly interesting if in human history the cultivation  of marijuana led generally to the invention of agriculture, and thereby to civilization.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345346297/103-2574067-9409467/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Carl Sagan - The Dragons of Eden - 1977

"

I am not.  Data is data.  I am not saying they are not valid deaths, they just cant be compared to the national data "Suicides"  and "Homicides".  (They could be compared to "Total deaths" data).  If a child is told to run 20 extra laps in football parctice because his coach hates him and he dies then this is a tragic death but is not included in the national numbers unless it was viewed as a homicide.  So these kids that were run to death would have to be compared to kids that were run to death in the public sector in order to get a comparison.  I am sure in this category the TBS would be much higher, but it is the only way to get a true picture.

I am not protecting anyone.  I think everyone would agree that the deaths need to be clearly classified so they can be tracked properly.[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-05-15 22:23 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2006-05-14 17:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

Just like no one can make you change your mind.  It would be stupid to think so.  

No, not really.  It's actually quite easy to "make" someone change their mind.  Doesn't really take that much time either.  With proper isoaltion and a system of reward and punishment, confrontation and love bombing, it's unbelievably easy to do.