Daughter out of control again ....

[Perrigaud]

That's exactly what i mean. No schooling is a bad thing. But again we are all entitled to our own opinions. Right? Right.

[Truth Searcher]

Anon~
I stated that I don't put much value on labels.  I never said that I didn't believe in treatment.  She is under the constant care of a very good psychologist (weekly) who specializes in BPD.  In addition she sees a psychiatrist to tweak meds about once a month.

With that said however, just as a diabetic has to learn to compensate for their illness, so does one who has a mental illness.  She can't hide behind it and use it to excuse her behavior.  It certainly might explain some of her skewed thinking processes, but lets face it, the real world isn't really going to care that she has a DX.  My ultimate goal is to prepare her to be able to survive outside in the real world on her own two feet.

BTW ... she opted to come home last night.  She said she feels "we can work things out".  I'm hoping that is a good sign.  Holding my breath that we can have some productive talks today.

[Anonymous]

Truth Searcher,

I'm glad to hear your daughter has returned home! I was also relieved to read that she is in treatment with a therapist & a doctor. Has she been with them long?

You say that your daughter has to learn to compensate for her illness (just as a diabetic would) and that she can't use her dx as an excuse for her behavior. Well, I agree that it's not an "excuse" for her to go around doing whatever she wants to ... but, a lot of her behavior is understandable (and even somewhat expected!) in the context of her having BPD.  Because she has this disorder, she isn't going to match up to the "cookie cutter" image of a 17 year old girl-next-door.  She has far more to overcome than most girls her age.  

As far as her having to learn to compensate... are you sure she is ready for that?  Has she learned to understand her dx?  Has she explored and researched her dx?  Does she have unanswered questions or unexplained ideas about how this affects her, her self-image and her life?  I think you're correct in predicting that at some point in her life she is going to have to learn how to compensate for BPD but she's only 17!  Perhaps she is not "there yet"?

When you write things like the Topic Title: "Daughter is out of control again..." it sounds like you are your daughter's victim.  It also implies that your expectations of her are unreasonable...it's important to add that her dx not be considered a moral or ethical stand on her part.  She is struggling and not because she wants to.  

I know I don't know you personally and to me it seems as if your heart is in the right place and your intentions are good...Someone in another post early on in this thread mentioned that your daughter might benefit from a more structured day to day routine.  Is that a possibility for you? Have you discussed this sort of thing with her careproviders? What do they think about her recent behavior (leaving home, PJ's all day, dropping out of school and whatnot)?

I guess what I really wanted to say here is that I know it's not easy for you as a mom to parent a teen with BPD.  I know from experience that it is extremely difficult.  I also know what can happen if you turn to the wrong place for help.  A toughlove program/attitude can destroy a child in her situation.  

I wish you both all the best.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-01 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

She even asked about reading other sacred texts ... I'm open to that.

Why in the world would a 17 year old kid have to ask permission to read something? Does she understand, and do you understand, that those various sacred texts are usually availble to anybody with a library card (or even without one if you don't take the books out) at the public library? That it's sort of a point of pride among most Americans that anybody can read anything they choose, even write anything they choose?

I'm sorry if this sounds mean or antagonistic to you. It's not my intent. I honestly find that statement alarming. And, honest to God, it suggests (doesn't prove, but suggests) a level of control and repression that might well explain her distress.

The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being of His Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

[Antigen]

Ok, really, please don't take me the harshest way. I really don't mean it. But, well, you asked and I think I can offer some valuable viewpoints, having been down similar dark and scary byways myself; both as the kid and as the mom.

On 2006-01-01 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

And your right ... I'm emotionally wrapped up. This has been a struggle for this kid for almost 8 fucking (pardon my French yes?)years. I feel like a totally ineffective parent. I love my child. You know what I mean ... you're a mom.

Yes! And of course, at this point in the game, you ARE totally ineffective as a parent. 17yo people don't need parenting in the same way children do. Don't think for a moment that you're really unimportant to your child. You'll always be the only mom she ever had and who in the world has more influence on anybody than their parents do? Usually, nobody. But it's not your place anymore to direct her like a child. It's her job now. Your primary responsibilities now have to do w/ good cheer leading and just being stable, calm and unflappable.

Her passions? Thats a really good question. She is passionate about dead rockers ...

Wow, dead rockers? There are a lot of good ones. That's really not a bad thing to do, either. Ya know, a kid could put together a live journal or blog or something, hook in some ads and affiliate links and actually turn a buck at it, even in this economy.

She STATES she has no goals.

Eh, people say all sorts of things.

Go easy on me Antigen ... I'm a broken hearted mom who just loves her kid.

I know, I know. And I guess I'm just not very good at being gentle and reassuring. I'm not angry, ya know, right? I'm just answering the questions you're asking as directly and honestly as I know how. And of course, you're extremely worked up over the topic while I'm not at all. But come on now, you asked "What do I do" and I'm answering that. It's not an accusation or blame or guilt trip. Just... well, solicited advice. Please don't take it the wrong way.

Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-01 20:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

I'm sure there is more that I'm not thinking of right now.

Yes!!! And I laughed my ever lovin' ass off last night watching Chuck Long in prison stripes doin' the bunny hop.  :rofl: Did anybody tape that? I mean, 6 years is nowhere near enough. Evidently one of the jurors was one of his followers. But it's SOMEthing. Better than NOthing. I'd far rather see Virgil Newton play that scene. But I think it's safe to say we're seeing some progress here.

Thought that is silenced is always rebellious. Majorities, of course, are often mistaken. This is why the silencing of minorities is necessarily dangerous. Criticism and dissent are the indispensable antidote to major delusions.
--  ALAN BARTH, The Loyalty of Free Men, 1951.

[Antigen]

On 2006-01-02 04:39:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

GED was "good enough" for me. Im in college right now (classes restart on the 5th!)

Congrats and good luck, Niles! Does this mean you're going to start making my head hurt w/ incomprehensibly complex math theory again instead of car talk? LOL

A free man must be able to endure it when his fellow men act and live otherwise than he considers proper. He must free himself from the habit, just as soon as something does not please him, of calling for the police.
http://www.mises.org/liberal/ch1sec11.asp' target='_new'>Ludwig Von Mises

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2006-01-02 11:12:00, Antigen wrote:

 Did anybody tape that?

I hope so.  I had family over last night and missed it.  A lot of times they re-run Dateline shows on MSNBC though.  They did that with the online predators show.

It's obnoxious to ask law enforcement to follow the law. That's insulting to every cop.

--John Lovell, lobbyist for the California police chief's association

[Antigen]

Ok, I wanted to read the rest of the thread and make a more thoughtful answer to the question about who/what to believe.

I can't address or control how others view the content here or how they respond. I'm talkin' just me here, what I think, how I sort it out or not.

Please don't take it personally that I don't take your word 100% about your daughter's troubles. And I didn't even really speak accurately that I'm not sure the kid is troubled. I know she's been through a program (I mean, unless you're litterally making the whole thing up out of whole cloth, and that seems very unlikely... remotely possible, but... come on now) I know you, her mother, bought into that. I retain some doubt about the BPD dx. Frankly, I hear that term about as often now as we used to hear about all the masses of dyslexic kids (i.e. any kid who ever switched their b's and d's when learning how to write)

So yeah, that alone and a few other details strongly suggest adequate explanation for the girl being distressed. It may very well NOT be an inherent dysfunction in her. It may just as easily (maybe more) be situational. I'm also pleased (as pleased I can be about the fortunes of a couple of relative strangers) that you and she both want to work this out.

And, now this is just my opinion. I do NOT think you're the worst mother ever. Honestly, as program parents go, I've seen you hanging around here, seeking opposing viewpoints, entertaining notions you were probably not strictly encouraged by the Program to entertain. And now that the Program's done and things are... well, not as wonderful as you may have hoped, you're actively seeking advice from people who have been right where you are. Moreover, you're not blindly following anybody at all, but keeping your own council.

Good Mom! I mean that. You KNOW I don't go around blowing sunshine up people's skirts. I mean that sincerely.

But about what to believe. I know a couple of brothers who fight all the time. Hell, the whole family fights all the damned time. So if one of these kids comes to me and says something about a deal on tires or where to get the best fish sandwich, I'll believe him. If the conversation starts out with "My brother...." I know that, if I want to be kind to this kid and lend an ear, I'm in for a long line of bullshit.

It just depends. But I honestly DON't believe everything bad and nothing good, even about these programs. When I fist started down this rabbit hole, the first place to come to my attention was SAFE Inc. I'd read some material, some by parents who had pulled or were trying to regain custody of their kids. I talked to a couple of them on the phone. I checked as much as I could of their stories and whatever public records I could easily find. I was impressed enough to plan a protest, put together the text for flyers, budget the cost of materials, gas and all that, pull together a group of people who might be interested in participating and then I waited.

See, I didn't really believe it. I been took for a fool before and I wasn't into making the same mistake twice. At the time, there had been an investigative reporter from a Miami tv station promising an earth shaking bombshell of a report. I wasn't sure that would happen. I remember when 60 Minutes did their thing on Straight. I was not impressed. So I waited and I waited, then the 2000 Florida Election scandal broke, and I was just sure I'd be spending that cash on something other than gas and printing. But they ran the story anyway.

Here it is:

28 DAZE http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/wami.ram
This news segment by Alan Cohn of The Times (WAMI Miami) on SAFE, Orlando (a Straight spin off) aired just after the 2000 election, in spite of competing headlines. We're ever grateful to Mr. Cohn and WAMI for doing such a good job of exposing this outfit and for allowing us to distribute recordings. (better copies are available in AVI file format or on Video)

I was extremely impressed. I made a recording, got permission from Alan Cohn to put it on CD and went into production w/ all the propaganda. Around 20 other people who had been in Straight or the Seed in locations from St. Pete to Cincinatti to Virginia were also impressed enough to show up for that protest.

It just depends, ya know? I don't have a hard and fast, secret patented formula for devining the truth in every situation. Sure wish I did, but then we should always be careful what we wish for.

Now, all that and I still haven't really said much. This is a difficult question, isn't it?

I wouldn't take any single fact from any post on this forum as absolutely objective, certain truth. But taken all together in the context of what else I know, what others have to say on the topic, who the speakers are and how much sense the story makes, well then you can get a fairly decent idea of how the land lays.

The Church says that the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the Church.
--Ferdinand Magellan, Portuguese and Spanish explorer

_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82

[Antigen]

Oh, one other thing. Anonymous speech, here or anywhere, is also important and valid. You take it somewhat differently when you don't know the speaker and can't put their current words in the context of what they've said before. But it's still valuable; especially to people who have something valuable to loose by saying what they've got to say and attaching their name.

When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"  
-- Quentin Crisp

[Compos Mentis]

Hi, I'm sorry to read about your daughter.  I just wanted to comment that I have experience with the "reform-school" issue.  Specifically, Christian-type ministry schools and reform camps.  My experience has been that they can truly be damaging. It's not a very regulated industry.  The school I know of specifically is licensed by the state, but the state is primarily looking at if the school conforms with the state's academic standards.  What is not regulated are the discipline techniques, "counseling" (which I've experienced as more damaging than helpful), and emotional living conditions.

I think for a young person going through tough times and acting out - the last thing they need is for religion to be shoved down their throat.  God gives us free will and free will to choose Him.  We parents are to help guide - not force our children to the Lord.  Our own actions, lifestyle, behavior is often the most revealing to our children.

Anyway, I think the schools that have a strict religious dogma combined with very difficult disciplinary measures can be very unfair to a troubled kid who's acting out.  Some of the disciplinary measures I've seen have been downright humiliating.  PLEASE, any parent considering this type of "treatment" for your child - please pray with an open heart.  Please look at both sides.  Be like the Bereans and study everything.

[Troll Control]

On 2005-12-29 07:45:00, Truth Searcher wrote:

"I used to lurk around here some time ago.  Yes, I was an advocate of "programs".  We really thought she had turned the corner in terms of destructive behaviors post program.



She has been home for 6 months, and we are pretty much back to square one.



I have really changed my thinking about the efficacy of these places.  It would be very interesting to know the recidivism rate of kids who attend long term residential placements.



So, I'll be lurking once again.  Mostly to gain insight into the hearts and minds of troubled kids.  Maybe if I can understand her ... I can somehow help her.  And then again, maybe she is the only one who can help her ...  "

75% recidivism rate according to government studies.  It's the same efficacy as the penal system, 25% success rate.

[exsafecounselor]

:wave:

[Anonymous]

Guess you're in dire need of some attention counselor?  Do you have any actual words you'd like to say?

[bandit1978]

How many more credits does your daughter need to graduate?

I stopped attending school in 12th grade, and I only needed 2 more classes (English and government).  

Then I heard about a school that lets you earn your credits from home-  for about $350 per class, or something.  I don't remember the exact cost, but my mother with me to meet the school principal.  

We got a tutor, and my best friend and I would go see her once a week, and with a minimal amount of work, (we hardly did any work at all, really), we finished the 2 classes in about 3 months, and "graduated" with a regular, Fairfax County Public School diploma.  

I never took SATs, and went to community college on and off for the next 3 years.  Then I transferred to a private university, and went to their nursing school, and now I'm a RN.  I could have done all that with a GED, as well, but I'm glad I got a regular diploma.  

Check with the local alternative school, see if your daughter can get her credits at home.  It's really easy...surely she must understand the importance of having some sort of high school diploma.  She can't really believe that there is "no use" for high school.