Daughter out of control again ....

[Anonymous]

Wow- you so smart, can I be like you?

[The Liger]

I understand why Niles wrote what he did.  It was probably in anticipation of the old "well you hate the programs cause you're a loser who isn't doing anything with your life except sitting around crying about some make-up abuse" routine.  Which, by the way, happened to me a few pages back and I had to respond with some of my accomplishments to refute.  It felt like bragging, but there was a point.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-30 19:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-12-30 13:56:00, Anonymous wrote:


"

On 2005-12-30 10:12:00, Anonymous wrote:



"  I went into one of these programs in the mid 80's at age 16.  Pot and alcohol were the drugs I had used.



 I had not ONE SIP Of any alcohol for the following 10 years, nor did I smoke or do anything else.  At age 26, I had champagne with my fiance. Then didn't drink any alcohol again for 5 years.  I now drink maybe 3 drinks a year.



  My experience in the program was good.  No relapse, no arrest, better grades, a college degree. To each his own."

If you were in programs in the mid '80s and are now 26, you were about 6 when in the program!  Nice try, program troll."

Actually 26+5=31. So by actually reading the post, 31 is the youngest he can be. 31-16=15, 15 is a pretty fesible age to be placed in a program. Reading comprehension seems to be a problem around here  :cool: That doesn't mean this person isn't infact a troll though. Just means you didn't comprehend what you were reading  :wink: "

**Were you one of those teenagers who thinks they're alcoholic?  So now you judge your "success" of your "program" by how much alcohol you have consumed since leaving, and since you have become of legal age??  Stupid, stupid girl.

[Antigen]

On 2005-12-30 17:07:00, Anonymous wrote:




Oh I understand that....and that may have been expressed in the first line of the post.  But all the other extraneous stuff?  All the "proof" of how supposedly brilliant the poster was? What is the purpose of that?  Just seems to show incredibile insecurity - and it is sad in its intensity.

Well, I suppose if that's what you're looking to find. I didn't read it that way, though. And why zero in on the perceived faults? The rest of what he said was really pretty kind and well born. Niles had a rough time in school, despite the fact that he's really pretty objectively brilliant in the areas that the accademicians tell us all that they care about. Never mind what they say, watch what they do. Doesn't matter whether it's ill intent or bumbling ineptitude. At the end of the day, they make life tough on good, inquisitive and gifted students and encourage medeocrity.

I think that was half the point. The other half was that, being the obviously misguided altruists that they are, even when they do their damndest to beat a kid down and almost push them past the point of breaking, you can win!

That's what we're talking about, remember? A kid who's gone through a program, almost passed the gauntlet, and now is in troubled waters at home over this stupid shit. And it is stupid shit.

TruthSeeker, for some comfort food for thought, you just go and read the bios of some of the most accomplished, celebrated heros in our history. You'll find that very few of them graduated anything similar to highschool, and those who did count it as a waste of time.

It's just not that big a deal, regardless of what you've been told. It's certainly not worth fighting w/ your daughter.

Personally, I think high schools have "dumbed down" in the area of responsibility.  They treat the students like little kids, with no responsibility at all - which I believe is a mistake.  

Yes, I agree. And isn't it interesting that the kids who chafe under that cruel yoke (and I'm not being sarcastic here) are the ones who draw the attention of the troubled parent industry and of the schoolpeople who think of it as a modern new convenience?

Yeah, huge fucking mistake! Bigger than and more profound than the behaviorists can even comprehend.

But I do disagree with some of what you say.  So far as the actually intrinsic value of high school - yeah, it leaves a lot to be desired.  But it is still a gauge for determining who gets in college, what job you get, etc etc.  

No, it's really not anymore. They care more about impressive applications that actually demonstrate ability, basic competence, drive and understanding. The stats are so politicized anymore that a college or university that values their reputation would be foolish to rely on them.

Colleges and employers don't know you as an individual, and they have to make their selection based on something.  High grades and performance is a "common denominator" for these people.

ROFLMAO! Ok, I'll remember that next time I pay the bills.

Is it right?  Is it the best measurement?  Maybe not - but the reality is that is is one of the few "yardsticks" to measure by.  

Nope, there are many and varied and far better and more relavent yardsticks. Look, if you really want to understand what our school system is about, and maybe to understand what kids have been complaining about since Mark Twain, Pink Floyd and Columbine, read John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of American Education Here's a link
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

And until there is something better, it will remain important for that aspect if nothing else."

In my dad's day, school was better than nothing. That's already been turned on it's head. Now? Now, nothing (nothing out of the way of day-to-day living) really is, litterally, better.

Don't worry about temptation--as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.  
-- Old Farmer's Almanac

[Nihilanthic]

And I have to ask - - what the hell does any of this have to do with anything? Trying to prove you have some intellect? Although it is hardly "proof" - - anyone can claim anything they can type, ya know?

Are you that insecure? If so, that is incredible sad...............

I can claim you can't correctly spell "incredibly" which is the adverb form of incredible, which is an adjective.

Ok, smartassedness aside, it was to demonstrate that highschool is bullshit and ultimately meaningless, and like Liger said, so someone cant call me a "loser" or call me stupid, etc.

Well, that and so people will try to troll on that instead of the actual topic at hand, so if they troll in a way I know they will, its even easier for me to shut them up  :roll:

May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis

[Anonymous]

On 2005-12-31 02:18:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"

And I have to ask - - what the hell does any of this have to do with anything? Trying to prove you have some intellect? Although it is hardly "proof" - - anyone can claim anything they can type, ya know?



Are you that insecure? If so, that is incredible sad...............

I can claim you can't correctly spell "incredibly" which is the adverb form of incredible, which is an adjective.



Ok, smartassedness aside, it was to demonstrate that highschool is bullshit and ultimately meaningless, and like Liger said, so someone cant call me a "loser" or call me stupid, etc.



Well, that and so people will try to troll on that instead of the actual topic at hand, so if they troll in a way I know they will, its even easier for me to shut them up  :roll:

May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis

"

Oh my - could it be - an "AD HOMINEM" attack against me?  Because I made a typo?  Even funnier when you look at YOUR typos - and use words like "smartassedness".

And you explanation is the very definition of insecurity - - 'so they won't call me a loser'.  

Now I'm sure you can explain how rebuilding engines and playing with networks and supposedly having a high IQ - has to do with the topic?  Oh yeah, that's right - the topic is always how brilliant YOU are.

And you will respond - you can't help yourself.

[Helena Handbasket]

Oh my - could it be - an "AD HOMINEM" attack against me?  Because I made a typo?  Even funnier when you look at YOUR typos - and use words like "smartassedness".

Are you serious???  I move to attach "Sense of Humor" badges to the user icons - and the people who lack one would be obvious.  Heeeeeeeeeere's your sheep.  :grin:

And you explanation is the very definition of insecurity - - 'so they won't call me a loser'.  



Now I'm sure you can explain how rebuilding engines and playing with networks and supposedly having a high IQ - has to do with the topic?  Oh yeah, that's right - the topic is always how brilliant YOU are.



And you will respond - you can't help yourself."

Mmmmkay.. and I also had to make such a post myself - that makes three of us, if you caught Liger's post.   Here's my insecurity:  http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=50#67662

On the other hand, Niles is actually smarter - he saw it coming instead of waiting for the attack :grin:
 
Or maybe you're just too predictable?

This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
         
http://www.aidoann.com/guncontrol.html' target='_new'>Adolph Hitler

[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-12-31 05:25 ]

[TheWho]

If a person is insecure about themselves for whatever reason (i.e. small breasts, scar on their face, overweight, underweight etc) when posting those flaws dont show and you can say that you have large breasts etc. and people can believe or disbelieve you, but you dont have to be self conscience about it.  If you have an I.Q. which is average or below and it bothers you you can go on-line and portray yourself as a rocket scientist by doing a few google searchs on the subject and claiming a high I.Q.
The people who actually have high I.Q.'s dont wear it on their sleeve, they are comfortable with it, have had it all their lives and dont have a need to convince everyone that they are smart.
Myself, I am different, I dont have anything to be insecure about because I have a very large ego.[ This Message was edited by: TheWho on 2006-02-17 15:32 ]

[Helena Handbasket]

On 2005-12-31 10:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"If a person is insecure about themselves for whatever reason (i.e. small breasts, scar on their face, overweight, underweight etc) when posting those flaws dont show and you can say that you have large breasts etc. and people can believe or disbelieve you, but you dont have to be self conscience about it.  If you have an I.Q. which is average or below and it bothers you you can go on-line and portray yourself as a rocket scientist by doing a few google searchs on the subject and claiming a high I.Q.

The people who actually have high I.Q.'s dont wear it on their sleeve, they are comfortable with it, have had it all their lives and dont have a need to convince everyone that they are smart.

Myself, I am different, I dont have anything to be insecure about because I have a very large penis."

DING! Humor points for you! Sadly, we can't pin your badge on a paper bag.  :grin:

The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188301123X/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>George Washington

[Truth Searcher]

I do agree with you all about high school being useless in most respects..... with a few exceptions:  I believe (at least in my daughters case) that it is a training ground for life.  It is about learning a good work ethic.  It is about learning organizational skills.  Time management.  It is about doing menial tasks even when we don't want to.  It is about dealing with jerk people.  It is about respecting someone in authority.

I don't give two hoots if she remembers anything about geometry or psychology.  I care that she is prepared to take care of herself in the real world without a safety net under her.

Thats why I struggle with the idea of letting her quit high school.  In addition, in our very economically depressed area, it is tough to flip burgers without a high school education.  There are too many people looking for work in this area.  Supply and demand is not on her side.

[ This Message was edited by: Truth Searcher on 2005-12-31 11:19 ]

[Antigen]

On 2005-12-31 11:19:00, Truth Searcher wrote:

"I do agree with you all about high school being useless in most respects..... with a few exceptions:  

Well, yeah, that's the largely unchallented default belief about it. And it's all pretty much the way I believed when I put my eldest kid in school. I've decided that was a big oversight on my part. Should have followed my gut and looked into it further. Let me challenge your thinking on this, point by point.

I believe (at least in my daughters case) that it is a training ground for life.

Better training for life than real life? How is that possible?

It is about learning a good work ethic.  

My dad taught me a good work ethic. He worked. He worked for pay to support us, he worked on projects around the house, he worked on cars, he worked on constantly improving his education through reading everything around. I worked with him part time repairing ceiling fans for a neighbor's trendy Hunter Fan shop. And I worked for the guitar I wanted by babysitting, mowing lawns, throwing papers... anything you could name or I could think of to suggest. Wash your car? Sweep your sidewalk, ma'am? Walk your dog? Wash the damned dog?

There was NONE of that going on in school. Almost all of the "work" was busy work. It was just a lot of sitting, enforced boredome, something to be endured till I could get to the work I wanted to do.

It is about learning organizational skills.  

By being told what to do, what to think about, how to think about it and when to quit being interested, rush to the next class and just as quickly become interested in something else? You don't learn organizational skills by having someone else dictate to you just exactly how you'll organize your thoughts and papers, right down to which grade of pencil (not pen!) you'll use.

Time management.  

Ditto. You learn time management by having free time all your own with which to accomplish something of some value. Dear god PLEASE let me paint a room or make a candle or learn to play something on that damned guitar but PLEASE, if nothing else, let my time be well spent and not wated on meaningless friggin' busy work!

It is about doing menial tasks even when we don't want to.

What kind of life are you trying to prepare her for? Slave work? Prison? What could possibly be the value of doing meanial tasks that the doer doesn't even want done? Except to break their will just a bit.

It is about dealing with jerk people.  

The best way I know of to do that is to avoid them. Outside of school, we learn to choose our friends wisely, to associate with people worthy of our time, attention, respect and company. The second best way is to outsmart them. The next would probably be to just wait patiently till they fuck themselves so you can laugh. I learned that in school because options 1 and 2 above were closed to me.

It is about respecting someone in authority.

In the real world, you tolerate assholes who manage to gain some authority. But you give your respect to people who earn it from you.

I don't give two hoots if she remembers anything about geometry or psychology.  I care that she is prepared to take care of herself in the real world without a safety net under her. Thats why I struggle with the idea of letting her quit high school.  

School is about the worst place to learn those things. Except maybe prison, but it's close.

In addition, in our very economically depressed area, it is tough to flip burgers without a high school education.  There are too many people looking for work in this area.  Supply and demand is not on her side.

In any type of economy, it takes some wit, some determination, some creativity and confidence to make it. Don't you go telling her she can't do this or can't do that. What do you know about what she can do? What does anybody know? You believe in God? Well, I don't, but if he did exist, he'd be the only one who actually knows what your daughter can't do. Don't stand in the way of her finding out.

This, of course, is all my thinking on it. I'd be very interested in hearing your daughter's take on it. Also, you and she both might enjoy reading some John Taylor Gatto. Here's his whole 800 pg tome online for free:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm

Or you can find a copy in your library system, I'm sure. Please do ask your kid to read my post and tell me what she thinks.

Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

[TheWho]

On 2005-12-31 10:13:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:

"

On 2005-12-31 10:04:00, Anonymous wrote:


"If a person is insecure about themselves for whatever reason (i.e. small breasts, scar on their face, overweight, underweight etc) when posting those flaws dont show and you can say that you have large breasts etc. and people can believe or disbelieve you, but you dont have to be self conscience about it.  If you have an I.Q. which is average or below and it bothers you you can go on-line and portray yourself as a rocket scientist by doing a few google searchs on the subject and claiming a high I.Q.


The people who actually have high I.Q.'s dont wear it on their sleeve, they are comfortable with it, have had it all their lives and dont have a need to convince everyone that they are smart.


Myself, I am different, I dont have anything to be insecure about because I have a very large penis."

DING! Humor points for you! Sadly, we can't pin your badge on a paper bag.  :grin:

The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188301123X/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>George Washington

"

I liked your insecurity too !!  Can I attach a badge?

[AtomicAnt]

On 2005-12-29 14:17:00, Anonymous wrote:

"re: truth searcher. First of all i disagree with the last poster in that sometimes I believe one's will must be broken down to a degree, then if done correctly, build it back up so they see a new self and willingness to pursue that to make them happy and confident.  I will get bashed on this board, but really, it sounds like your concerned, have done what you had to do, and things aren't going exactly right right now. If your really wanting to know what to do, this board, which is a very minute group of hostile people who never got it, is not the place to contemplate or make decisions.  You should seek other neutral and knowledgeable advise.  That being said,  reading your post, this is what I think.  There is definitely recidivism.  Not to blame you, because you do care, but that is again being taken advantage of.  You ARE the responsible adult, and you CAN and WILL make the decisions based upon her living in YOUR house!  She does not yet realize how much you care for her, what you've had to do, and how hard it is on you right now. Second, you and her have a definite communication gap.  You MUST have regular communication sessions,and that is required to live in the house. If she's cutting herself, you'll have to decide if this is an attention thing, or does she need some real psychological help.  You talk to her eye-to-eye where she knows you mean business, then do what you have to do, and tell her that you will because you love her. She will respect that regardless of what she might say immediately.  Lastly, I can fully understand your confusion and grief, and this site will only add to confusion. I'm on here anonymously because i do it for a laugh at the people crying about their "abuse"= had to work, had to look at wall, had to not talk, had to not look. Sorry, not had to, but was "forced" to.  No, everything in life is about choices.  It is spelled out from the beginning what the rules are. In a program, or in real life.   Now, I'll really get bombed for this. But you know what, when my teen was really headed for big trouble, and I had been through all the legal ramifications that went with it, I talked to many people, did my own investigations, and personally took my child to one I was comfortable with.  About a year later, my child is about to graduate, thinks he is 10' tall, loves his family, respects rules, and is very serious about not being around negative influences. I think you have hope to get help for your daughter, but it HAS to begin with you putting your foot down. She WILL participate in your discussions and your decisions, because YOU are the parent. And she can CHOOSE what she wants to do from there. Being 17, if she refuses, she's on her own.  Then she'll be back, to go by your recommendations.  "

Free will. It is interesting to me how this concept is twisted and turned by program supporters to suit the moment. Let's see, "...everything in life is about choices." This comes after, "I believe one's will must be broken down to a degree..." The contradiction is so latent, I can't imagine you proof read it and still actually posted it.

Let me see if I get the program logic correct. It goes like this:
 
 1. A young person becomes a troubled teenager because of some negative influence; trauma, loss, bad friends, bad parents, whatever. It's really not their fault and they didn't really choose to be 'troubled.' It just somehow happened to them. Choice had little to do with it.

 2. They are now "out of control" and making bad decisions. They are choosing to do the wrong things.

 3. The parents, as a last resort, having tried everything else imaginable, find it necessary to lock the teen up against their will. " They must ("...have done what you had to do...") break the teen down and then build them up. By force. Against their will. The teen has no choice in the matter, because the parents are in charge.

 4. The program will modify the teen's behavior by teaching them to make better decisions. They will allow the teen to decide to follow the program's rules or be punished. They cannot leave until they agree with the programs's and their parent's rules. After all, "...everything in life is about choices."

 5. "About a year later, my child is about to graduate, thinks he is 10' tall (delusional), loves his family (You give the program the credit for this?), respects rules (has no free will and is obedient), and is very serious about not being around negative influences (agrees not to hang with people you don't like)."

 But seriously, your son has simply learned to play the game. He knows that the only way he can get through this is to go with those who have such power over him. For now, this works. He may even believe in the game, since he has not been exposed to any alternative viewpoints. The difficulty will come into play when he really is free to make his own choices and encounters those opposing viewpoints. He won't know how to choose. He has never had any experience in making his own choices. As a child, he lacked the capacity. As a teen he was locked up and forced to obey. As an adult he will have to figure it out on his own.

 One last thing. Are you serious about not being around negative influences? How do you define this board? Would/will you allow your son to read this board? You do. You posted on it.

[Anonymous]

AA,
I appreciate your brillant thinking!!
Glad you made your way to the party.
Happy New Year (emoticon didn't work.
Deborah

[Anonymous]

Truth Searcher: you say you don't like the idea of "letting your daughter quit high school." You just may have no choice about it!!  She can always take the GED. NOT graduating from a traditional school is not the end of the world.  You seem to continue to project way into the FUTURE instead of concentrating on what is going on TODAY. The educational issue can be resolved by taking a GED test, and this diploma is recognized by employers and most colleges and universities.  This girl has reached what most people consider the age of majority, and she should be allowed to make her own choices regarding religion. She appears to already be making her own decisions about her sexuality.  BUT; two important issues need to be addressed: her housing, and her cutting herself. Your guidance and input are critical in these areas.