Author Topic: A cult?  (Read 57217 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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A cult?
« Reply #255 on: May 19, 2005, 01:04:00 AM »
Just reading the first and last couple of posts on here and thought Id weigh in.

Anon,
How can you call Greg illogical when believeing in God is illogical? My Dad and I were discussing Christianity one day. I was asking him how he could believe in something with out proof, wihtout logic. He is a mathamatician and a very logical man. He told me, "Thats just it. Faith is illogical. You have to believe something you cant see, touch, or smell, or have any hard proof it exists." It is weird to me this extremely intelligent man could beleive something so out there. I am a reformed reborn Christian as well. One day I was thinking about God and I realized there was a possiblilty that life could just be it and then you die there is no Heaven or Hell. We just die and thats it. It freaked me out and since then I just cant believe the hypocritical biased Book anymore. I cant believe that Christians are so very judgemental and quick to hate, when that isnt the way Jesus was. He talked about damnation alot, but he also spoke of he that cast the first stone, and love thy neighbor, love the sinner hate the sin.

My dad brought up and interesting point though. Jesus existed. Therfore you either believe he was a raving lunatic or he really was the son of god.  But I also believe, being that the Bible was written by fallable men, they convieniently left things out to further thier cause.

The bible was written and canonized by men. Man left out an extreme amount of biblical testimony by other sources outside the twelve apostles. And that being the case, how can one believe in a biased book that not only causes people to shut out and hate others, but it has caused wars and problems for many. And not just Christianity other religions do it too.

My husband wanted to retort as well. He said
"god may know your choices when they are made, but he can only influence your decision, as can the devil. Hence, he knows the choice, but cannot make it for you, or presume to know what choice you will make. Thousands of factors go into decision making. God is listening not deciding."

And another thing, it is weak to have your only argument be that God is so above us that we cant possiby understand his plans. Evertime I ask my Dad about Christianty and theres something he cant explain, he responds the same way you do. God is too powerful to understand, it is not something we need to understand to beleive, ect. Wheres my freakin answers? Shouldnt they be in the Bible? Why are there so many loopholes and unanswered questions and they still expect us to swallow it without knowing the whole truth?

Seems like a big conspiracy to me.
Amanda
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Offline Anonymous

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A cult?
« Reply #256 on: May 19, 2005, 08:29:00 AM »
From what I know of God, thru reading His words, God would already know your questions and instead ask you one.  This seems to be what Jesus did with the Pharisees.  

And Amanda, for me it would take more faith to believe that all of creation just happened, by chance, without purpose, something this wonderful just sprung into being from nothing and no one.  That in itself is faith.  Your faith is in what you see.  There are lots of things I can't see, but I still know exist by evidence of behavior.  I know my husband and   children love me.  This is evidenced by  their behavior.  I can only see the results of that love and feel the implications of that love.  But I can't see love.  When they are out of town, I can't see them, but I still know their love.  I can have faith in an unseen God, because of the evidence of His creation.  To me, it is only logical that a creation has a creator.
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Offline GregFL

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A cult?
« Reply #257 on: May 19, 2005, 09:34:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-05-19 05:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"From what I know of God, thru reading His words, God would already know your questions and instead ask you one.  This seems to be what Jesus did with the Pharisees.  





Nice Bob and weave!  Can't address the question directly, can you?

What a Joke!




Quote


 I can have faith in an unseen God, because of the evidence of His creation.  To me, it is only logical that a creation has a creator."



Now you are in a logical dead end.  If the universe needs a creator, than so does the creator, and this brings you into an infinite inpass.

You are just inserting "god" into every place that you don't have understanding...your death..the universe..infinity..the beginning of time..the beginning of life.

Why can't you just say "I don't know"?

Will your head fall off?

 :grin:
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Offline GregFL

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A cult?
« Reply #258 on: May 19, 2005, 09:39:00 AM »
Amanda, Well thought out response!


I would say this tho, a couple assumptions you make are not foregone conclusions.

Did Jesus exist?  There has been debate on this topic since the gospels were written.  At this point, it is so entrenched in mythology that we may never know. And no, he didn't have to be a raving lunatic if he wasn't the son of god. Many people think that they are the incarnation of God and appear fairly rational...look at our modern day example Rev Sun Yun Moon. Many people say "god is in me". Doesn't this sound crazy? Do these people act crazy? Usually no.  

Your conclusion about omniscience and free will is one theory that can't hold water, god cannot know what we are going to choose and give us free will. If he knows we are going to do something in the future, then we are compelled to behave this way.  My two questions to God are evidence of this. Read back and with your sharp open mind, you will get it.

Thanks for the response.
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Offline GregFL

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A cult?
« Reply #259 on: May 19, 2005, 09:57:00 AM »
Also, Amanda, your father appears to be what I think is a more intellectually honest christian than what we are witnessing here.

When a religious person says

"I believe because I have faith, it is not based in logic, I feel it"

well, who can argue with that?  It is when these people try to step up to the plate with logical arguments, "scientific" conclusions based on their relgious book, and foregone conclusions about concepts such as Creation, then their argument gets silly real quick.
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Offline Anonymous

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A cult?
« Reply #260 on: May 19, 2005, 10:09:00 AM »
*I* am a raving lunatic.

Most raving lunatics are not at all like sane people think we would be, even off our meds.

I haven't known many schizophrenics, but I've known a lot of other bipolars.

People who are crazy, even before meds, can and could go through long periods of stability just because the diseases wax and wane on their own.

And you can be in a period of relative stability and still believe God is talking to you.  In fact, a lot of raving lunatics are hyper-religious because that's one of the areas of the brain frequently affected by what we've got.

I suspect that throughout human experience, raving lunatics have been labelled holy men or holy women and had their visions and teachings followed by others.

It certainly explains Mohammed better than anything else.  Guy at 41 years of age, in a cave, decides an Angel is talking to him.  Riiiiight.  And half of what he was so arsed about at all his neighbors in Mecca, and why he had to run away to Medina in the middle of the night in the first place, was because his friends and neighbors who lived with him and should know thought the man was a dangerous raving lunatic.

One of the bigger differences between Mohammed and Jesus is that Mohammed happened more recently so perhaps we have more information or people were noticing different things, already, to write down.

And Jesus appears to have been a much nicer person.

But I have no problem at all with believing that Jesus was a very good person, and a very wise person, and also a raving lunatic.  Because those three things are not as incompatible as people without a major mental illness, or without a close family member with major mental illness, think they are.

I think that either the information about Jesus has been reported and distorted very selectively *or* he was a raving lunatic, or a bit of both.

Having a cow at the banking people in a Temple, throwing over tables, grabbing a whip and running around after them beating on them----all that isn't exactly the *normal* way of dealing with a bad policy.

It was effective.  It was probably even a good idea.  But not exactly normal.

Crazy people have those kinds of violent rages.  Frequently at things that would have hacked other people off, too.  Other people would have just chosen to exercise more control than to start throwing tables, yelling out accusations, and beating the crap out of semi-random examples of the whole group of people making them mad.  Normal  people, even if they were as upset as Jesus appeared to be, would have handled that differently.

So yeah, I think he was a nice, wise, lunatic who nevertheless said a lot of important things.

Timoclea
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Offline GregFL

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A cult?
« Reply #261 on: May 19, 2005, 10:16:00 AM »
hehe. It is fun to play the "I think game" But none of us really know. We just make assumptions based on the information presented to us, our fears, our desires, and our need to understand things we cannot.

The credulous argument is a weak and emotional argument. That is why you witness them ducking logical questions, because direct answers lead them away from their foregone conclusions.

To me, this is not how I wish to live my life, by a set of absolutes based on illogical and silly assumptions like Woman was tempted by a talking snake into eating a magical fruit, Or God murdering 42 children by sicking bears on them because they called one of his prophets "baldy". I could go on and on. I think two thousand years ago, it probably made some sense in the context of that ancient society. Today in 2005? It is unreal people accept this stuff at face value and choose to dismiss hundred's of years of science and reason.

But hey, if others wanna use this as a blueprint for how they process information, that is their choice.

Just don't come a knocking on my door wanting to convert me with this sillyness.
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Offline Anonymous

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A cult?
« Reply #262 on: May 19, 2005, 02:54:00 PM »
The Bible is a bunch of (poorly written) fictional stories.  The Old Testament was written by a bunch of protein-deficient Jews in order to justify their racism and swindling of other peoples.  The New Testament was written by the Church for the same reason.  Religion is jive, those who fall for it are 'tards, and should be executed.
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Offline Anonymous

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A cult?
« Reply #263 on: May 19, 2005, 03:41:00 PM »
And another thing,
In the Bible, it says it is a sin to be gay, right? It says it once in the old testament and once in the new. But the bible also says alot of other weird things in the old and new testaments too about how we should live our lives, but most Christians dont follow those rules. Its like they pick and choose what rules they want to follow and not the ones they dont. I think thats ridiculous. And maybe saying Jesus was a lunatic was a bit extreme. He has soem good things to say. And Greg, My brother the theologin told me there was documented fact from more than one culture that Jesus exsisted. Is there a link you can provide to give me some info on the opposite?
Thanks
Amanda
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Offline Anonymous

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A cult?
« Reply #264 on: May 19, 2005, 03:45:00 PM »
Oh, and I was listening to NPR the other day and they were discussing the seperation of church and state. The people said there is nothing in the constitution that says the words seperation of church and state. Further, on man said that the idea was to keep the state out of the affairs of the church, not the church out of the affairs of the state. Any info or links about that?
Amanda
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Offline Anonymous

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A cult?
« Reply #265 on: May 19, 2005, 04:39:00 PM »
Amanda, you are right the Bible does say that lots of actions are sins.  And Christians are nothing but sinners with their sins forgiven.  The Bible even says that if anyone says he is not a sinner then he has just sinned.  We all sin and fall short of perfetion.  Jesus was the only perfect one.  So yes, Christians pick and choose their sins, but that doesn't make it right.  They are all still sins.
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Offline Anonymous

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A cult?
« Reply #266 on: May 19, 2005, 05:56:00 PM »
You have quoted all things from the Old Testament.  I know those things have been explained to you in earlier posts, so go back and re read the things Buzzkill told you.  Those posts are very researched and represent what most Christians believe today.  I am sorry you are stuck in the Law.  Try reading the New Testament and see the grace brought by Jesus.
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Offline GregFL

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A cult?
« Reply #267 on: May 19, 2005, 06:18:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-19 12:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"And another thing,

In the Bible, it says it is a sin to be gay, right? It says it once in the old testament and once in the new. But the bible also says alot of other weird things in the old and new testaments too about how we should live our lives, but most Christians dont follow those rules. Its like they pick and choose what rules they want to follow and not the ones they dont. I think thats ridiculous. And maybe saying Jesus was a lunatic was a bit extreme. He has soem good things to say. And Greg, My brother the theologin told me there was documented fact from more than one culture that Jesus exsisted. Is there a link you can provide to give me some info on the opposite?

Thanks

Amanda"


Next, your brother will be marching out tactitus and Josepheus.

Yes there are links...look thru this thread.
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Offline GregFL

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A cult?
« Reply #268 on: May 19, 2005, 06:21:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-05-19 14:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"You have quoted all things from the Old Testament.  I know those things have been explained to you in earlier posts, so go back and re read the things Buzzkill told you.  Those posts are very researched and represent what most Christians believe today.  I am sorry you are stuck in the Law.  Try reading the New Testament and see the grace brought by Jesus."


Yeah, god was wrong back then!


Oh wait, that makes him not omniscience!


 :rofl:

You are so illogical, it is mind numbing.
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Offline GregFL

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A cult?
« Reply #269 on: May 19, 2005, 07:51:00 PM »
And pleases stop assuming the anon posters are my posts.

Like almost everything you have said, that is an erroneous conclusion.
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