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Author Topic: A cult?  (Read 59625 times)

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Offline GregFL

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A cult?
« Reply #240 on: May 18, 2005, 04:53:00 PM »
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On 2005-05-18 13:36:00, BuzzKill wrote:



It seems to me you are trying to cast blame on God for not Making you do what you should, b/c He knows what wrong you will do.


What a disengenious tuck and dodge of the question, like I was really talking about stealing something tomorrow at 8.  :lol:  :lol:

This is a micro example of your responses in this entire thread.

Buzzkill....Omniscient or Freewill...which is it?





 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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Offline Anonymous

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A cult?
« Reply #241 on: May 18, 2005, 05:23:00 PM »
okay, I am not all knowing, but it doesn't take an all knowing parent to know what their child will do when given free will.  If I offer my child a tuna sandwich or a peanut butter sandwich, I KNOW she will pick the tuna one.  However, I didn't MAKE her pick the tuna one.  Now, if I KNOW that and I am not all knowing, then how much more will my heavenly father KNOW about me?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #242 on: May 18, 2005, 05:26:00 PM »
And Buzz, your posts are still be read with great respect by others that are not posting!  We thank you for your intelligence, time, effort and energy.
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Offline GregFL

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A cult?
« Reply #243 on: May 18, 2005, 05:30:00 PM »
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anon wrote:

 okay, I am not all knowing, but it doesn't take an all knowing parent to know what their child will do when given free will. If I offer my child a tuna sandwich or a peanut butter sandwich, I KNOW she will pick the tuna one. However, I didn't MAKE her pick the tuna one. Now, if I KNOW that and I am not all knowing, then how much more will my heavenly father KNOW about me?









You do not Know anything, you assume based on your child's prior behavior. Your child could develop a craving for peanut butter and you  don't have this knowledge before hand! This type of stuff happens all the time. Your analogy is horrible!!

This is very different than knowing a future absolute. IF a supernatural being knows the future absolutely, it predetermines the outcome.  If the future is absolute, then it is also not able to change. If it is unable to change, you have no free will. If you have freewill, then the future is  not certain, it is based on a future decision. In that scenario, God cannot know the outcome because of "free will.

Think about it.

Now,Anon, since you have piped in... which doctrine is wrong...Free will or omniscience?
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #244 on: May 18, 2005, 05:30:00 PM »
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On 2005-05-18 14:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

"And Buzz, your posts are still be read with great respect by others that are not posting!  We thank you for your intelligence, time, effort and energy.  "


you speaking for all lukers or just yourself? Who elected you the lurker spokesperson?

Aren't you really just trying to boost "jesus's side" in this argument?

comn, you can tell us.

 :grin:
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #245 on: May 18, 2005, 05:34:00 PM »
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On 2005-05-18 14:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"okay, I am not all knowing, but it doesn't take an all knowing parent to know what their child will do when given free will.  



Man, I just re-read that again. Are your proposing that you know with certainty all decisions your child will make?

What a load of crap!!!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #246 on: May 18, 2005, 05:50:00 PM »
Neither is wrong.  God doesn't operate in the same time restraints that we do.  He created time.  We move in a linear time line.  God does not.  He knows our decisions but they are still ours.  And, by the way, read the posts more carefully!  It is tuna that my child likes.   :smile:   You may not agree with the analogy, but it is as close as you can get when you speak to a finite being about an infinite Father.  And...I am not saying All children would choose tuna just mine.  And she would not ever choose the peanut butter because she knows the consequences of eating peanut butter.  She is highly allergic and it could kill her.  Now...I will still keep peanut butter at home because the rest of the family still enjoys it.  She will go other places that serve peanut butter, but I KNOW my child's choice.  However, I am not forcing that choice.  She still has free will.  She chooses to abstain from peanut butter because of how it will effect her life.  But there is still free will.  I choose God because of how He will effect my life.  He chose me before the foundations of the earth, so...just as I know my child's choice...He knows mine.  But He doesn't make me choose Him just as I don't make my child choose the tuna.  And as far as speaking for the other anons...there are several of us at work that discuss and enjoy this thread.  So I know I am speaking for at least 4 of us!  so keep the debate alive!
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #247 on: May 18, 2005, 06:20:00 PM »
Even if God doesn't operate within time ( a horribly silly notion)  YOU DO.

If god knows the future absolutely, then you have no free will, you are pre determined to behave in the manner and fashion god knows you will. It is a simple logical conclusion.

What a twisted justification argument you use.

Which is it..do you have free will or does God know the future?

Answer the question.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #248 on: May 18, 2005, 06:38:00 PM »
BTW, I corrected it to peanut butter before you replied.


4 people at work, eh? Do you work at an evangelical church?


 :grin:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #249 on: May 18, 2005, 06:44:00 PM »
I know you do not understand.  But  I have no problem with God knowing the future and the decisions I will make because He knows me.  I am sorry you don't have experience with relationships like that.  One does not preclude the other.  As far as where I work...NO I don't work at a church, but I am blessed to work with other believers.  You make statements that make God little and with no more power or understanding than man.  He is Creator and there is no way for man to understand all of His ways.  I cannot expect an ant to understand human emotions any more than I can expect man to understand all of God's ways.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #250 on: May 18, 2005, 06:48:00 PM »
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On 2005-05-18 15:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I know you do not understand.  But  I have no problem with God knowing the future and the decisions I will make because He knows me.  I am sorry you don't have experience with relationships like that.  One does not preclude the other.  As far as where I work...NO I don't work at a church, but I am blessed to work with other believers.  You make statements that make God little and with no more power or understanding than man.  He is Creator and there is no way for man to understand all of His ways.  I cannot expect an ant to understand human emotions any more than I can expect man to understand all of God's ways."


hmm...I guess your thesis is, you can't think this thru.

I am talking about YOU, not god. If god knows what you are going to do tomorrow, can you change the course of that knowledge? Do you have to behave as god Knows, or can you change it?  The answer is...if you can change it, God doesn't know...If you can't change it, you don't have free will, you are pre-determined to behave in a certain fashion. This is an indisputable fact. Think, Anon...it isn't really all that painfull!

BTW, I am a reformed Born again christian. Don't patronize me by saying "I don't have experiences with relationships like that". If you were following this thread as close as you claim, you would have already known that. Further, I am the father of two children, one 22  years old. Your example is absolutely based on  a false pretense, you Do not know how your kids will behave with free will. Please!

your entire response above is known as "special pleading" and it does not hold water.

Answer the question...is it free will or Omniscience that is wrong?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #251 on: May 18, 2005, 07:48:00 PM »
I am sorry.  I just don't agree with your logic.  To me it is illogical.  God knows what my choices will be, but they are mine.  When I change my mind, He is not surprised.  He knew I would.  The two things, free will and all knowing are not different.  He created me.  He knows me better than I know me.  He knows my choices.  I didn't claim to know all my child's choices.  I AM NOT GOD!  God knows what my child's choices will be.  I know what some of them will be...like not choosing peanut butter.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #252 on: May 18, 2005, 08:30:00 PM »
I only want evidence, not proof. For example, I do not have proof god doesn't exist, the evidence only sways me to believe that. The argument for God is an emotional, weak argument. If the argument was stronger, I would tend to believe.

This right here tho is evidence of the non- logical, anything goes mentality of the credulous. They refuse to allow logical arguments to enter their brain because it interfers with their foregone conclusion.

Just like "creation science", it is self induced sillyness
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #253 on: May 18, 2005, 09:30:00 PM »
OK....

 lets say that god lets  me ask him two questions.
My first question is this... I ask God to tell me the yes or no answer to question # 2, without telling him what the question is.  He answers  yes.


 Can I now phrase the 2nd question just to make god give me the wrong answer to question # 1?  What if I say, are you evil?

Can I do this forcing god to answer NO to question # 2, thereby rendering his first answer incorrect?


If so, Doesn't that make him not omniscience?

If no, doesn't that mean I don't have Free will?



 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:
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Offline `

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« Reply #254 on: May 18, 2005, 11:36:00 PM »
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On 2005-05-18 15:47:00, Cayo Hueso wrote:

"Oh My God!  Those last couple of anon post just about made my head asplode! :nworthy:
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