Author Topic: ABC Brat Camp  (Read 47207 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #150 on: July 20, 2005, 10:17:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-07-20 18:59:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Imagine applying the declining years of your life (that is what they are you know) to running a negativistic destructive site like this.  Poor old you!!



I guess you get paid for it somehow, through advertising or something. Maybe that makes it worth it to you





But your responses just now to the poster who talked about Lexi, well it says it all, it tells the whole story, about you...you poor old excuse for a human being



That poster obviously meant something good, productive..something positive. All you could do was pick out phrases and diminish.  Honey....your response said a whole lot more about who you really are than it ever said about this poster



I hope any parent trying to make sense of these pages looks at your response in this case... and then decides to kick your jaded damaged opinions to the curb where they absolutely belong"


Wow, something must of struck a nerve, eh?

You deplore everyone for their low maturity level here, and then have no problem resulting to insults in the same fashion. Talk about hypocrisy.

Thank you Ginger for this website. You are doing something right, if you can illicit this kind of anger from a program supporter!
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Offline webcrawler

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« Reply #151 on: July 20, 2005, 10:22:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-07-20 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-07-20 18:59:00, webcrawler wrote:


"
Quote


On 2005-07-20 14:06:00, obsidian student wrote:



"Thank you for the kind words, I have been out of the program for almost 6 years now.  I am actully in the police academy currently,  I would definetly suggest research into the programs and to make sure the child going into the program is mature enough to learn from it.  I believe that one thing a wilderness program can do for a child is take them completly out of their enviroment by doing this it was a way I was able to look at my sit back and look at my life and see what mistakes I was making and was able to understand how to make some better choices.  I can also say that when a person is made to go without all the things you love in life you are able to appreciate those thing in a whole new way."










Look I'm glad to hear you have your life together and all, but perhaps it can be attributed to life exp. and growing older. I think people give these programs way too much credit. I know a lot of people that were wild as teens and they turned out alright.





The problem with many of the parents is that they never set consistent limits on their children from day one. They over indulge their children from the day the kid throws a temper tantrum in the store over a toy and the parent gives in. All of a sudden the kid turns 12 and is demanding more and the parent who never had consistancy with rules is at a loss of what to do.





On the other end of the spectrum there are many kids that have been abused, mistreated and bullied at school by teachers and peers, have chaotic families, suffer self esteem issues and do a lot of this stuff either for attention, to anger and hurt those that hurt them, or to escape from the emotional pain. Yelling and screaming at them while pushing them into exhaustion is not helpful.





Then there are just kids that are curious to try things. It's called being a teen.





Your kids didn't start acting out for the hell of it. It's an issue that involves the parents too, whether or not you care to admit it.





You speak of appreciating things once taken away, okay well parents can do the same thing. Take the TVs, radios, computers, Ipods, cell phones, video games, spending money away and start holding your children accountable. Stop expecting someone else to parent your child. Kids are going to act disrespectful to parents that disrespect them. It's human nature."




I can understand what your saying but I am in no way speaking of kids who misbehave or direspect there parents,I understand that rebelling is natural for teenagers. I was a drug addict teen and my parents tryed all the options including  therapy, counslers etc. They chose the option of wilderness therapy and I can say that through the program they changed also they understood that many of my problems were because of things they were doing and they were able to change how they were acting as well as I was able to understand my own problems."



I'm not trying to discount your exp or opinion, but let me say this, I once said almost the same thing you did about trying everything and my last place being the only one that helped. Most of us here have said it regardless of what program we were in. We were trained to believe that it was necessary to put up with all the negative things there for the few good ones. The break them down and build them approach is the wrong way to go.

I too was in several places and visted many counselors before my TWO YEAR stint at the last place. Here's where my parents went wrong: they did not force me to follow through on any of the places and when they did not see immediate results they gave up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
am looking for people who survived Straight in Plymouth, Michigan. I miss a lot of people there and wonder what happened and would like to stay in touch.

Offline webcrawler

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« Reply #152 on: July 20, 2005, 10:30:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-07-20 19:12:00, Anonymous wrote:

""Look I'm glad to hear you have your life together and all, but perhaps it can be attributed to life exp. and growing older. I think people give these programs way too much credit. I know a lot of people that were wild as teens and they turned out alright."  



This is what Webcrawler says about Obsidian Student's evaluation of his/her own experience.



Amazing how some very negativistic posters here have special knowledge of what really happened in other people's lives!!



For myself, I think that Obsidian Student sounds like an insightful together person.  



If Obsidian Student said that this program was helpful I am inclined to accept that analysis at face value



Especially compared to the analysis of Webcrawler-- who I have no reason to believe has a clue about Obsidian Student's actual experience

"


Perhaps you should slow down and read what I wrote again. Telling someone I'm glad they got their life together is not being negative!

Perhaps you should read all the posts by this student as they have admitted on another thread that the place had some bad aspects as well.

I do have a clue as to what kids experience as I was in a program for 22 months plus 6 months aftercare, a hospital, a youth home, and been to many counselors as a teen. I speak from experience and I don't know why you are so hell bent on arguing with me and making snide remarks.

Your sub topic is pretty obnoxious I may add.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
am looking for people who survived Straight in Plymouth, Michigan. I miss a lot of people there and wonder what happened and would like to stay in touch.

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #153 on: July 21, 2005, 12:03:00 AM »
This guy 'Glacier' is such a fag.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #154 on: July 21, 2005, 12:17:00 AM »
***Just because Lexi was molested, that doesn't give her the right to screw up her life.

Guess what? It?s not your place to make that judgment. It?s not useful and doesn't accurately describe reality. This is precisely one of the key attitudes that should change. It appears that the masses believe that when people are acting recklessly and hurting themselves that they are doing so consciously. It has not a thing to do with her having the ?right? to screw up her life. I?m sure she?d much rather be at peace.
If you can?t respect the challenges and understand that motivations behind ?self-destructive? behavior are subconscious, you shouldn?t be in the ?helping? field.

It's a major flaw with the so-called philosophy and ?treatment? in these BM warehouses.
Just curious, what?s it to you? Why is it so important to you that she NOT have the RIGHT to screw up her life- as you interpret it?

My son did a lot of ?destructive? things when he returned from the program that he hadn?t done before- self mutilating, devil worshipping, smoking, drinking, wearing anarchy t-shirts, parrot green hair, black finger nails, chains, army boots. Regarding his appearance, which was down played?. he finally figured out, ?It was his safety blanket?. He had been so hurt and traumatized that he trusted no one. He wanted to repel people. I could?ve lectured him till the cows come home. I could?ve forced him to dress differently. And I would?ve been just another authority figure telling him not to FEEL and act and dress the way he felt. He wanted/needed to be in control.  HE decided when it was safe to take it off- when it repelled people that he wanted to be close to. That took time and lots of listening on my part. And honestly, I was kinda glad. It does get old, smiling at people in pubic when they are gawking at your kid.

Many parents/?helpers? don?t allow kids the process, to come to things on their own. They don?t trust that they can or will. Too often it is about their need to boost their own egos with the notion that they ?saved? the kid.

These programs are less about building self esteem and more about teaching kids to defer to authority, and how to act. Any good that could come from them is missed due the unnecessarily abusive methods.

Let?s take the scene with Shawn. He?s already carrying more than his share of supplies but is guilt tripped into doing more- filling water bottles. I thought his argument was reasonable. Staff interpreted it for the audience as a reluctance to ?take responsibility?. His arguments may not always be reasonable, but that one was. It seemed to me to be the best scenario they could contrive to ?address his issue? of not contributing. Pretty lame. Why contrive a situation? If he genuinely has an ?issue? with not contributing it most certainly would come up in due course. But then if it didn?t, it might spoil the plot. I imagine that they probably choreographed scenarios for each of the kids. And I don?t believe for a minute that, as Glacier said, the staff knew nothing of ?why? the kids were there- their ?issues?.
Did you hear Shawn parrot what the counselor had fed him? His problems stemmed from- fear of acceptance due to being adopted. Well excuse me, that might very well be the case, but it would mean a hell of a lot more and be cleaner if he had been allowed to come to that realization on his own. Instead, he has another ?authority figure? telling him WHAT his issues are and how he should THINK about them and ACT.
Fear of acceptance? perhaps it?s different for all those in program land, but it?s my belief that kids/people don?t fear being accepted by their family for no good reason. Did you hear what his adopted father said? ?I don?t care if he?s cold?. It wasn?t a tone of acceptance. Sounded like resentment to me. And what IF, Shawn doesn?t feel accepted for good reason? Now, will he go back and just ?accept? their inability to accept him? I can?t help but imagine that this is the real goal and very possibly the case.  

***You people have no idea what these parents have tried.

I did hear Jada?s mom say the she just couldn?t listen to her daughter talk about her sexual encounters.  Now that?s some damn good modeling for your child. Sex is bad, I can?t talk about it, I can?t listen to your experience. Did it ever occur to you that kids are constantly checking to see what their parents are made of. To see if they are really present. Really invested in their well being. Hell, to see if they're even real. I?d give up too if my parent was such an apathetic, narcissistic wimp. I?d like to take that mom to the wilderness for 90+ days and hike her in freezing weather. The whole time talking about sex and where/when she developed her unnatural and unrealistic beliefs. I?d require her to talk about nothing but sex until she was deprogrammed. Perhaps when she got home she?d appreciate her daughter?s attempt at intimacy.

And the expression on Flying Eagle?s face when he was ?counseling? the kids, particularly Frank.  If my therapist looked that concerned and overly invested in MY ?issues?, I?d run like hell. He looked like he was in pain or fear, or both.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #155 on: July 21, 2005, 12:19:00 AM »
I am watching the show now. This is utterly disgusting. Sitting around in a circle insulting eachother? Yeah... very therapeutic. I feel sorry for all the kids who have to camp with that dickhead named Frank. If I was sent there with him I would have thrown a rock at him by now, what an annoying dude. They actually expect these kids to open up to strangers? To a huge TV audience? Please... ABC wants DRAMA not therapy. That's why they are at sagewalk!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #156 on: July 21, 2005, 12:28:00 AM »
They mean salespeople. They just convince the parents not to believe their own kids. They break the bond that took many years to build. What an accomplishment.  :roll:

This show makes me want to throw up. They think its all a game or something. I mean come on, who thinks this actually helps anybody with serious issues.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #157 on: July 21, 2005, 12:31:00 AM »
Did you see Nick breakdown when they mentioned abandonment issues? Jesus, this is such a fucked up show. We all get to watch emotional damage be done to teens on tv. God damnit, this is fucked up.

 ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::  ::puke::

These 'therapists' are clueless. These 'counselors' are clueless. Most of allk, the parents are. For believing these wackos can safely care for their child. In addition they somehow believe they will solve their problems somehow? Get real!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #158 on: July 21, 2005, 12:38:00 AM »
Does anyone else notice ALL the parents are pushovers?  :roll: Aparently they are more comfortable paying someone else to do something they could easily do themselves. Or do the program parents actually believe the 'therapists' and 'counselors' know something they don't? I don't get it!!  :???:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #159 on: July 21, 2005, 12:40:00 AM »
What is sad, we all know how they will define 'success'. The kids will be so happy they are going home they will seem like new children, for a while. They will be thankful to the staff, they are so happy, they are leaving. You can see it already. Of course it will appear a 'success', why don't they go check up on them 2 years later and see how much Sagewalk actually helped. Money well spent? Unlikely.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #160 on: July 21, 2005, 10:05:00 AM »
Now some things are universal: if you or I put our hand in fire...our skin gets burned.  

Other things are not so general.

A few posts back Webcrawler claimed to "have a clue" about Obsidian Student's experience because both of them had been in programs.

Problem is: Webcrawler seems to have hated his experience, Obsidian Student found his---not perfect---but overall helpful and positive.

So either these are different experiences or (as is more common here in true-believer-land) anyone who thinks his experience was good must be brainwashed, evil, "just wait for another year and you'll see the light", etc, etc, etc.

Obsidian Student's posts seem pretty balanced and reasonable to me...especially compared to some other posters.  He's 6 years post program---if he was going to have some great revelation there's a good chance he would have had it by now

You might just as easily argue that given another year or two Webcrawler or any number of the negative types here could have a revelation that their program was really good. Now how likely it that to happen?
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Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #161 on: July 21, 2005, 10:07:00 AM »
The porgram could of changed between webcrawlers and the guy with 6 years out. that would change experiances.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline webcrawler

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« Reply #162 on: July 21, 2005, 11:00:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-07-21 07:05:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Now some things are universal: if you or I put our hand in fire...our skin gets burned.  



Other things are not so general.



A few posts back Webcrawler claimed to "have a clue" about Obsidian Student's experience because both of them had been in programs.



Problem is: Webcrawler seems to have hated his experience, Obsidian Student found his---not perfect---but overall helpful and positive.



So either these are different experiences or (as is more common here in true-believer-land) anyone who thinks his experience was good must be brainwashed, evil, "just wait for another year and you'll see the light", etc, etc, etc.



Obsidian Student's posts seem pretty balanced and reasonable to me...especially compared to some other posters.  He's 6 years post program---if he was going to have some great revelation there's a good chance he would have had it by now



You might just as easily argue that given another year or two Webcrawler or any number of the negative types here could have a revelation that their program was really good. Now how likely it that to happen?





"



Oh please do tell us what your experience is oh "positive one". After 13 years of trying to forget about the place I was in, it all came back to me during a traumatic event.

And to be honest I too supported boot camps, etc. until a few years ago when I started learning about all the bad things happening. I had no clue, I thought the program I was in was the end all and be all of bad programs. I was wrong and I have since learned there are many more out there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
am looking for people who survived Straight in Plymouth, Michigan. I miss a lot of people there and wonder what happened and would like to stay in touch.

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #163 on: July 21, 2005, 11:12:00 AM »
Here's what really bothered me from last night:

The guy who's supposed to have a violent temper, I forgot his name, who they showed helping the little ADD kid up from the ground...they made this out to be some sort of transformation, when it's NOT. This show is so stupid. They made it sound like he's never liked anyone or showed the slightest bit of kindness ever his entire life.....until now....the breakthrough thanks to SAGEWALK. This is sickening.

The fact that they encourage the kids to go off on each other by sitting there silently letting them confront each other. Plus it's similar to what the field people say to them too so they know it's looked up to. And they want to get out of there so there's pressure to do what is wanted. Then they come in and say..this is sagewalk, we talk things out etc etc. What about the molested girl? Should she go talk to the person that molested her and put herself in danger. Again, this so is SO stupid.

And who was that kid they only showed once, crying during individual counseling? And they kept saying, this is going to be really hard for him, he's sensitive etc. Well....maybe he shouldn't be there then! Why keep him if he's maybe too sensitive? (And why do they have that little ADD kid there!! He's a KID and he has a biological disorder!!) And more importantly, why don't they ever show him?? Probably because he makes everyone look bad because he's obviously not a bad kid. Not that the rest are abnormal, but with him I bet it's undeniable.

My last complaint, is that they are teaching them through the dumb hikes that...nobody will be there to help you out. That's what they kept saying. What kind of a horrible, screwed up lesson is that to teach a bunch of kids. God.
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Offline webcrawler

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« Reply #164 on: July 21, 2005, 11:19:00 AM »
I read in yesterday's paper that this show had 10.4 million viewers last Wednesday. Sadly, this show will probably continue with a new set of kids.

If anything I hope the supporters and opposers of this place can at least come to a common ground on one issue. The issue being that the children should not be exploited on national television for entertainment purposes.

We already can see the mind set of at least one viewer with the insensitive remarks regarding a client being molested.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
am looking for people who survived Straight in Plymouth, Michigan. I miss a lot of people there and wonder what happened and would like to stay in touch.