Illegal for Parents to Snoop on the Kid's Phone Conversation

[Timoclea]

On 2005-01-12 08:27:00, chi3 wrote:

"I'm back to my same original reasons for signing onto this board. What abuse? What kind? When? Where? I believe it has happened. I just would like to hear some concrete details. I want to know if it was reported to authorites. Were people punished? I sincerely want to know. This affects me deeply. I have a child at a wwasp school. I have read and heard so many conflicting stories. I want the truth. Please."

Most of the various kinds of abuse or neglect I've seen alleged at WWASPS schools falls into the following categories:

Depriving children of toiletries necessary for good hygiene.

Depriving children of access to bathroom facilities until they have to foul themselves.

Keeping children out in the sun long enough to deliberately cause severe sunburn.

Sleep deprivation.

Excessive isolation in forced stress positions in small, bare rooms that were deliberately too cold or too hot, under constant observation.

Abuse of physical or chemical restraints as a punishment instead of just when the child was behaving dangerously to self or others.

Neglecting to get the child needed medical or dental care.

Providing unclean water so that children became sick with E. coli bugs.

Spoiled food with inadequate nutrition or calories so that kids who couldn't afford to lose the weight lost lots of weight and muscle.  Food with excess *empty* calories and inadequate nutrition so the kids had to eat too much just to get the nutrients and got fat--then emotional abuse about being fat.

Therapy sessions that consisted of people yelling and screaming at the kid.

Punishment for failure to confess deep dark secrets.

Arbitrary punishments for things the kids either didn't do or that weren't against the rules.  Arbitrary and trivial rules---like not being able to talk to other children at all--even outside of class, at meals, etc.

Abuse of patient confidentiality--confessions of flaws used to break down and demean the child.

Depriving the child of clean clothes appropriate to the weather conditions.  (In some cases, parents are charged for a clothing allowance and the kid is given only dirty secondhand sweats to wear.)

Telling the child her parents don't love her and don't want her anymore and that that's why she's there.

Depriving the child of schooling whenever the child is arbitrarily dropped down levels or placed on other restrictions.

Parents are told that all complaints of the child are "manipulation" and that all the children lie, and the child is punished for any criticism of the facility during monitored communication (all communication is monitored) for "manipulation."

It's harder in your case since your kid actually does lie a lot---you can't know what to believe and what not to.

I *think* Carolina Springs in particular has had negative dealings with the local Child Protective Services.  If it were *me* and *my kid*, I would call the local child protective services and *ask* them what their history with Carolina Springs was.  I would *also* call the Better Business Bureau and ask *them* about any complaints against Carolina Springs.

I'd visit periodically, *insist* on seeing my kid, and take particular note of any bruises or any sudden weight loss or weight gain.  Yeah, it's *really* going to compromise your child's therapy to get a hug, get stepped on a scale in front of you, and show up in shorts and a T-shirt so you can look for bruises or restraint marks.  NOT.

-------------------

Just as an aside, I had a *terrific* 8th grade English teacher.  She was a very smart, wise, dedicated lady.  One of the very wise things she had posted on her wall was, "If someone demands blind obedience, you'd be a fool not to peek."

-------------------

I would *at least* show up randomly, *insist* on seeing your daughter and physical copies of her school work in her own handwriting, hug her, look her over for bruises, stick her on the scale, and insist on walking through the back of the cafeteria and seeing what food is being prepared for the children.

I would also insist that they let you take her for a scheduled dental checkup with a local dentist every six months, regardless of what "level" or restriction she may be on.  With the possible/probable deprivation of proper nutrition, toiletries, time and privacy for hygiene, and the *definite* stress of being away from home, your daughter really *needs* those regularly scheduled dental visits.

They may tell you the dental visit has to be scheduled during the home visits, and if you can, okay.  But if they try to tell you she can't go for the home visit because she's on restriction, or if the only time you can get a dental appointment is some other time, just like I wouldn't take no for an answer about a second opinion, I wouldn't take no for an answer about a trip to the dentist for the six-monthly checkup, or for any follow-up visits for fillings, etc.

Timoclea

All religion is dumb. It's one big story they're feeding you so you'll  behave on Earth. If there is a god, then he's a prick.
--Howard Stern, American radio personality

[ This Message was edited by: Timoclea on 2005-01-12 09:20 ]

[Timoclea]

Look, I'm not going to be disingenuous.

I think WWASPS is a bad racket and wouldn't be caught dead putting my own special needs kid (I'm mom to a 9 year old with bipolar) in one of their facilities.

*Personally* I think you should be on the next plane to pull your kid out.

But realistically, you don't know me from adam and I'm trying to give you good, reasonable, generic advice.

If I'm wrong about WWASPS, or maybe even if I'm not, they'll cooperate with your precautions for your daughter's medical welfare and she'll at least be physically okay and you'll know it.

If I'm *right* about WWASPS, I suspect that they aren't going to be at all happy about your wanting to see her off their schedule to check on her welfare, or your personally ensuring she gets necessary and appropriate medical care promptly.

But really now, if they try to tell you reasonable, necessary, appropriate, prompt medical care and random physical welfare checks are going to compromise your daughter's treatment---doesn't that set your bullshit detector off full blast?

I don't know if they will or not, but I would say that those are *reasonable* precautions for any parent to take.

Timoclea

I'm glad some people have that faith. I don't have that faith. If there is a God, a caring God, then we have to figure he's done an extraordinary job of making a very cruel world.
--Dave Matthews, South African rock musician

[Deborah]

OWC,
Could any of these programs 'work their magic' if the kids had the basic rights of uncensored letters and unmonitored phone calls? Contact with siblings and grands? If they had access to a public phone and the phone numbers to report abuse to, posted over the phone?

Think long and hard about why this is the standard MO of all programs.

And think about the lame excuse they give for this austere policy, 'to prevent the teen from manipulating their parent'.

This is utter BS. Any good therapist would work with parent and child, drawing attention to each when they thought either was 'manipulating'. There is absolutely NO reason for this industry-wide policy, except to lower attrition, separate and condition parent and child to their roles. Instill a new vocabulary and way of perceiving.

Reports of negative conditions and circumstances at the facility should not be screened out or punished. That ALONE is a big red flag, and speaks loudly to those who will listen.

What might happen if a parent told the program that they were not concerned about being 'manipulated' and refused to have their phone calls monitored or mail censored? Refused to allow their child to be punished for reporting anything negative. Refused to limit their contact with their child to 10 minutes per week?

I've read a few accounts and what happened was that the parent was asked to withdraw their child. And in two cases I'm aware of the program attempted to 'manipulate' the parents out of a refund on pre-paid tuition. Teen wasn't 'terminated' but 'withdrawn'. Just a little trick parents should be aware of. They manipulate parents more than their teens ever did.

[Anonymous]

We have read from other students and parents that letteres and phone calls are not censored.
By the way when i was at desisto we had a phone in our dorm to use anytime. We also could write letters as much as possible.I don't see anything wrong with having to earn the write to call your parents. They can write once a week from the beginning. They gave us too much freedom at desisto and it did not work for many of us. You make it seem so different than it is. Also if the parent wants they can have a once a week conversation with thier child and a therapist. I know 1st hand a child i brought that this was done with. It is not near as bad as you say, at least not at the wwasp schools i have been to.
The one that cares

[Timoclea]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

The point is, for this parent, how does she make sure that *her* kid is okay?

And how she makes sure her kid is okay is she makes sure she maintains contact and periodically goes to the school and makes physical checks on her child's welfare, checks obvious *physical* signs of wellbeing like marks and weight and schoolwork, and ensures that her child has regular, appropriate, routine medical and dental care.

And gets a qualified second opinion to make sure that if her kid has a psychiatric diagnosis, that it's an accurate one.

Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe the other critics on Fornits are wrong.  It wouldn't be the first time I've ever been wrong in my life.

But when it's *your kid* that's at stake, a responsible parent exercises *reasonable* oversight to check and make sure.

Timoclea

Ardent advocates of prohibition were obsessed by a zeal that bordered on fanaticism. They supported politicians who voted to outlaw liquor, no matter how much of it they privately consumed, and spurned politicians who voted against prohibition, no matter how sober they were personally.
http://www.ncpoliticalreview.com/1101/Ervin/cohen.htm' target='_new'>Sen. Sam Ervin, Preserving The Constitution

[Antigen]

On 2005-01-12 08:27:00, chi3 wrote:

"I'm back to my same original reasons for signing onto this board. What abuse? What kind? When? Where? I believe it has happened. I just would like to hear some concrete details. I want to know if it was reported to authorites. Were people punished? I sincerely want to know. This affects me deeply. I have a child at a wwasp school. I have read and heard so many conflicting stories. I want the truth. Please."

From my perspective, take your experience in the seminar and put it into your daughter's context. Granted, you don't completely understand how she thinks (I read and answered your other post). But just put yourself in her shoes. What if the seminar were not just a few days? What if it were an indeterminate period of time? Could be years. What if you really, really couldn't leave. If, when you stepped out the door, you were a second class citizen as teenagers are. No property, no bank card, no ID, no credibility (oh, and btw, some miles of badlands populated by folk who can make a quick buck by capturing you and turning you in) You just can't get away from these people, even to take a breather. And, if you did manage it, you'd be a fugative w/o any rights and no one would believe you.

That's where your daughter is. Is that better or worse than where she put herself before the Program? Cause, based on what I've read, if she wants to get by, she's required to pretend, convincingly, that this is much, much better!

Now, I was never in a WWASP program. I can't swear to which rules and policies are reliable accounts and which are less than accurate. I can identify w/ how these kids describe the effects and how the proponants defend it. Uniformly, they make an appeal to faith w/o any understanding of what the process is or how it works or what the overall agenda really is.

The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.
--Thomas Jefferson

[Antigen]

At the risk of being accused of being too annalytical and intellectual and into my head, let me pick this apart.

On 2005-01-12 04:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Thank you for not being blinded by the others.

I agree. A parent that knows all of the childs friends and thier parents and has a family dinner every night and has structure for that child to follow will more likely not have problems.

Close, but no cigar! Into every life some rain must fall. And the Spring of life always seems to be an especially soggy stretch. I've seen some kids come up just fine w/ their parents being far too busy and preoccupied to pay much attention to what their kids were up to (provided the kid more-or-less kept from getting busted at anything major) And I've seen others who, despite their parents dedicating themselves entirely to micromanaging every aspect of their kids' lives turn out... well, like half of us posters to these forums.

If you're going to get involved in a hands-on way in your kids' private business, be prepared to get your hands dirty.

I think a lot of people get into trouble and become prime targets for the troubled parent industry when they snoop just a little too much. You get a glimpse of something and get frightened and over-react when, had you not known, the kid would have come to the same conclusion on their own w/o your strongarming them.

Been there, as I've said. Yes, I'm glad I found out which kids I wouldn't want using my phone. But I also realized that I could have figured it out based on more obvious evidence w/o ever violating my daughter's autonomy. Big mistake on my part! Very little return.

The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:

[Nihilanthic]

To the lady with the kid in the wwasps school...

Hello? Earth to mama!

If you are worried about your kid PULL THEM OUT. If WWASPS tries to make up shit about how they hae to keep them confined and hidden from you, then maybe you SHOULD take that as suspicion.

Its "treatment", not jail, right? You can cancel it whenever the hell you want!

Go there and DEMAND to see the kid or pull them out and find out for yourself. Sheesh. You're an american, this is america, theres no excuse for such secrecy about YOUR CHILD.

If that is YOUR KID then YOUR responsibilty is to them. GO FIND OUT YOURSELF.

And if you do, please come back here and tell us about it. It would help everyone.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
-- Aristotle

[Anonymous]

I think that parents should be able to "snoop" - especially if they suspect their child is involved in dangerous activities - such as drug abuse.  Sometimes it's difficult to find out what's really going on.

[Nihilanthic]

why cant they snoop on the programs?

May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis

[Anonymous]

Why can't you grow up. Your 20 year old views of someone who has never been to a wwasp program and only have opinions based on rumors are of no use to parents and the parents here need to know that you are no authority and you are only 20, which does mean allot. You have not grown up yet. The one that cares

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-13 04:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Why can't you grow up. Your 20 year old views of someone who has never been to a wwasp program and only have opinions based on rumors are of no use to parents and the parents here need to know that you are no authority and you are only 20, which does mean allot. You have not grown up yet. The one that cares"

And you kidnap children and try your best to hang on to your crazy delusions, so you could justify your acts of violence against CHILDREN and your criminal activities.

You're the one who needs to grow up. You're obviously still not over your own behavior modification experience.

[Anonymous]

98 percent of the time i do not use cuffs and have never done anything violent to a child. Yhis is waht i mean about there being so many kids on this board. This is a typical tactic used by kids and immature people, they try to say the most hateful thing to get at someones insides and try tp push the person's buttons. You can not piss me off that bad that i will lose composure. I take care of each child on each intervention as if they were my own. Kidnapping is illegal, Intervention is not.
Get your facts straight, it is only your opinion and the law is on my side. I was not in a BM school it was a theraputic one and if you have read anything i wrote, you would see that i spent my 8 months there had allot of freedoms and was not a bad place. Desisto did change from what i have heard on our allumni web site. But i did not go through a BM school.I have no delusions, you don't know me at all and you never will, because you are very simple minded with blinders on. The one who cares

[Nihilanthic]

OK, OWC - before I go any farther - PLEASE, for gods  sake, learn some spelling grammar and syntax. Its hard to read what you say.

Now, finally, Lets spell a few things out.

Currently there is NO distinction between Behavior mod and 'therapeutic' boarding schools. "Behavior modification" is just a polite way of saying you're brainwashing or punishing someone into obedience. Dont like it? Tough.

Now, you say intervention is legal, kidnapping is not. Wheres your proof of that?

Legally taking someone into custody involves a trained LEO and due process. If its just detainment they have to let them go if they dont have a reason. Get that?

These "interventions" Do not have due process. AT ALL. You're just a hired goon, nothing more. You dont know or see shit because a kid in fear of a program would never tell you anything.

If we are right, and they had something bad to say, did you just magically forget how they claim they're punished for trying to tell people about it?

Furthermore, about the due process, there is no real evaluation of the necessity of them in a program. There is no oversight to make sure the program offers any therapy at all, especialy the kind necessary for a lot of them with real problems.

If they had due process a lot of them would be sent home, dont you get that? There is simply NO NEED to abduct and hold kids captive for 'treatment' except the extreme cases.

There are still no answers for the points I've raised, "OWC".

Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist

[Anonymous]

You have no points. You are just jumping on the bandwagon here. Why, only you know? I have dealt with police and TSA and Airport police all over the country, they seem not to have a problem with what i do. If i don't spell right get over it, you seem to understand. There is nothing illegal with what i do otherwise i would have been arrested. I also do pick up kids from courts, jails and hospitals. Some are even court ordered. So just drop the illegal stuff. You can call me a kidnapper all you want, but i am not and the law says so.So get over yourself. You and this board seem to be the brainwashed and very much cult like to me. The one who cares