Author Topic: Good news?  (Read 10427 times)

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Offline Perrigaud

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Good news?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2004, 09:57:00 AM »
To be honest with you I see both sides. There are cases where the kids were sent for no real concrete reason other than they weren't listening. Other's (such as myself) really needed to be sent. My parent's did try just about everything. In the end I realized that the way I was living my life was full of destruction. In my program there apparantly were cases of abuse and assault. I never witnessed any of that personally but I don't doubt that it happened.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2004, 10:05:00 AM »
Perriguad, I appreciate your willingness to look at this from another perspective.  I have a question.  You stated that you fully believe that abuses and assaults went on in the program you were in.  What would you say to those people?  Did they deserve this?  Was you getting the "help" you say you needed worth their beatings?  It's kinda like saying that what they went through was OK because some people got something out of it.  

I'm really not trying to pick a fight here.  I respect the fact that you ARE willing to look at this with a little more of a critical eye instead of just summarily dismissing everything we say.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2004, 12:36:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-31 05:33:00, miseducated wrote:

Try turning the tables. What if all of a sudden kids had the legal right to sign their parents into involuntary treatment for "troubled parents"? I mean, can you imagine, locking up an adult who has been tried for no crime? And then, making them go through some variation on treatment to which he must submit if he hopes to ever get out of there?


Actually, we don't even have to resort to imagination to find this scenareo. Just take a little time and look into elder care and neglect issues. There are plenty of outfits that will lock away your needy and troublesome elder relatives, take your money and/or their social security or pensions, neglect them and abuse them if they dare complain to you or anyone else about it. It's actually a big problem nationwide.

Ironically, Joy Margolis, who used to be a spokesperson for Straight, Inc. later turned up as a spokesperson for Lutheran Services of Florida when they were accused of misallocation of funding and elder neglect. I guess she found her calling early on, eh?

And I suspect this will turn out to be a matter of special concern for parents who have been less than scrupulous when researching placements for their teenagers.

If you believe that people cannot be trusted to govern themselves,
then can they be trusted to govern others?
 
--Thomas Jefferson

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Offline Dolphin

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« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2004, 01:07:00 PM »
Can you say without a doubt that there were abuses going on?  Hearsay is one thing, but you even admitted you didn't witness any.  Wouldn't be impossible not to know this?  I'm not saying that sometimes a staff person wouldn't make a bad decision, but I firmly believe they would be fired on the spot, and the parents contacted, which I know from first hand experience as a parent that this happened to.  I wasn't happy it happened, but grateful he wasn't hurt and the staffer was fired.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2004, 01:18:00 PM »
Quote
Wouldn't be impossible not to know this?  


It would be possible not to know it was abuse. If a kid is put in a state of severe psychological pressure, and told over and over again, that it was the victim's fault and that if only the victim would have followed the rules s/he wouldn't have been abused, and that it's for the victim's "own good", and that it can't be considered abuse because the victim "asked" for it to happen by breaking the rules, etc. etc., the kid might just end up believing it. That's what the program is all about, actually.
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Offline spots

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« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2004, 03:39:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-31 10:07:00, Dolphin wrote:

"Can you say without a doubt that there were abuses going on?  Hearsay is one thing, but you even admitted you didn't witness any.  


The knee-jerk definition of abuse is knocking some kid around, anywhere from cuffing them upside the head, to hog-tying them on a concrete floor for days on end.  I feel it is incorrect to say abuse can only be categorized as physical beatings.

That said, I will relate what my grandaughter has said over the last year living with us, about what she witnessed or knew was happening at Casa by the Sea.  BTW, I believe her for a lot of reasons beyond our blood relationship, mostly because what she sometimes-reluctantly mentions follows to a "T" the experiences of literally hundreds of other survivors I have listened to.

She personally spent a huge amount of time, more than two months, in solitary confinement when she first was entered into Casa.  This was kept from her parent, the family rep flat-out lying about what was happening to her, with 6 of her first 8 letters being destroyed until she finally was able to write an acceptable "manipulation" letter, stating that "...this place is not what it seems".  She does recognize the inequity of her punishments, especially the random, capricious nature of more days solitary punishment meted out by newly-minted higher level kids (who have absolutely NO business disciplining anybody, much less with the life-and-death circumstances Casa kids feared).  My kid often says with chilling quietness that she was absolutely convinced she would die in Casa. She was 14 years old.  

One girl in her dorm had spent most of her first year there in R&R, the aforementioned-hog-tying room.  This girl had permanent scars on her chin from spending so much time resting it on the concrete floor.

Only days before my kid arrived, a girl had attempted an escape by scaling the high stucco wall surrounding the entire compound. Although my kid did not personally meet this girl, her exploits spread throughout the compound (hearsay?), with credible witnesses relating the girl had a crushed pelvis from her fall from the wall.  

Would you consider it abuse to withold toilet paper, sanitary napkins, aspirin, etc.?  This was done to children I personally know.  Would you consider it abusive to deny people toilet privileges until they were forced to soil themselves?  My own kid was denied orthodontic care for more than 8 months, and when *something* was finally done, it was done in the most cruel and terrifying manner.  Interestingly, my kid tells of the trips to the Ensenada dentist, but really doesn't recognize or think of the mean, purposely-scarey events as abuse.  She will, eventually.

These are credible instances of abuse, from a witness...and this was only on the girls' side, even though the boys' side of Casa was notorious for greater wrongs.  I personally know one skinny 16yo boy who lost 25 pounds in 4 months at Casa, due directly to witheld food. This same boy, being somewhat large for his age, was recruited to drag boys to R&R, kicking and screaming, although he himself was never committed to that space.  One boy I have spoken to suffered grevious physical injuries at High Impact, the facility that is-or-is[was]not WWASPS, including broken bones and teeth knocked through his lip.

My grandaughter saw several boys being force-marched back into the Casa compound after having been run up and down the steep mountainside across the freeway from the Casa site as punishment.  One boy was vomitting from the exertion.

This is personal, credible testimony from someone who lives in my house.  If you want more, just ask Cherish Wisdom about her daughter's experiences at Provo Canyon, or Buzzkill about her son's time at Dundee.  How much personal testimony about *physical* abuse do you need to believe it happened?  We're not even venturing into the mental anguish and abuse of the entire Program.  Let's just say, you have been presented with evidence a jury would weep over (see the PURE trial), and to ignore it or challenge it is...well, stupid.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2004, 03:41:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-31 10:07:00, Dolphin wrote:

"Can you say without a doubt that there were abuses going on?  

Nope. But then I haven't sent my kid there. You can damned well bet I'd need more than hearsay to convince me that these people do NOT abuse their students before I'd trust them to care for any of my kids.

In another thread we're discussing exactly how the Program 'works'; specifically, what parents and former students who support the program
think, what they know and don't know about it. So far, the concensus seems to boil down to this:

Quote
Ginger, Niles, whoever - WHO CARES HOW IT WORKS? It works for anyone that CARES enough about their life to do the tough stuff to get past whatever got them in the mess they were in. The past does NOT have to equal the future unless you want it to - in other words, if you are in your "safe" place and are too afraid of what it's like on the other side of what's comfortable, whether it's working or not, you'll keep asking about other's experiences over and over again until you decide to just let it go and do something different, or not.

As someone once said - Analysis paralysis! Stay stuck in your crap, it's not my problem. It's YOUR life and your choice.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#73167



So, to recap the position of Program supporters, you have no clear understanding of what does go on in these Programs while you're not permitted regular contact and communication w/ your kids. But you're damned sure there is no abuse or undue manipulation or intimidation going on because everyone who says so are liars, losers and lunatics.

Is that about an accurate assesment? If not, what is?

If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
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Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2004, 03:58:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-31 06:57:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"To be honest with you I see both sides. There are cases where the kids were sent for no real concrete reason other than they weren't listening. Other's (such as myself) really needed to be sent. My parent's did try just about everything. In the end I realized that the way I was living my life was full of destruction. In my program there apparantly were cases of abuse and assault. I never witnessed any of that personally but I don't doubt that it happened. "


You know, this was really all I wanted to hear from you.

Look, I can speak to this from maybe a different perspective.  You're new, but I've kind of worn some of the regulars here out talking about my personal experience with being bipolar, and having lots of bipolars in my family, so I'll keep it short this time.

A lot of the survivors here who are least happy with the programs got sent for trivial reasons.

Me, I sure do have a major mental illness--I'm high function, but there are other members of my family, and who have been in various generations of my family, who weren't high function.  Some of us have been institutionalized for spans of time---and needed to be---and some have had worse experiences.  My great grandmother was chained to a tree in the yard in her manic phases, when she got violent, because that was all they had to do with her.  She was dangerous, and they knew she wasn't criminal but was just nuts, and there were no treatments.

Institutionalization is better than that.  And being stable on medication and *not* institutionalized is better still.

I've never needed to be committed, but I love my family.

You might say I have a personal stake in seeing that treatment of the mentally ill, and civil commitment procedures and conditions, work properly and humanely.

I don't want to end residential treatment.

I'll sure as hell have family members who need it.

And we tend to be early onset---it showed up in me when I was five years old, and my nine year old daughter already has it.

So our future generations, in my family, are likely to encounter the system for good or ill in our teens.

I'd sure prefer it to be for good rather than ill.

And that's why, even though I have a life, I spend so much time on this damned issue.

I really do *not* want to end residential care for teens.

I want it to be affordable.

I want it to work.

I want it to be safe and effective.

And I want kids who are capable of doing well in *outpatient* care to have that opportunity.

You ever wonder why I spend so much time on here when I've never been (fortunately) in one of these facilities and it "doesn't affect me"?  Because it affects my whole damned family---out to the nth generation.  And I love my family.

Timoclea
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Offline Carey

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« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2004, 04:50:00 PM »
Quote
This is personal, credible testimony from someone who lives in my house. If you want more, just ask Cherish Wisdom about her daughter's experiences at Provo Canyon, or Buzzkill about her son's time at Dundee. How much personal testimony about *physical* abuse do you need to believe it happened? We're not even venturing into the mental anguish and abuse of the entire Program. Let's just say, you have been presented with evidence a jury would weep over (see the PURE trial), and to ignore it or challenge it is...well, stupid.


Spots, what evidence?  Accusations?  Personal Testimony?  Accusations and personal testimony are not evidence. Have you not heard the personal testimony of those who work in, or run the programs.  They too have plenty of positive things to say about what happens in the programs.

There are plenty of parents that have plenty of positive things to say (personal testimonies) as well.  Their testimony contradict yours. And, their children's testimony contradictS that of your granddaughter's.  Why do you not consider their "testimony" as good as evidence? Because it is not evidence!  Nor is yours or anyone elses.  Someone telling you how "great" the program is has not proven to you that it is "great".  Yet its the same story they tell  over and over again.  Why do you not believe them?  BECAUSE IT IS NOT EVIDENCE!

The accusations themselves may be true none the less, BUT THEY ARE NOT EVIDENCE.  People telling the same stories over and over, does not make them true.

I don't know anything about Cherish Wisdom or her daughters experience at Provo, but I do know about Buzzkill and I do know Buzzkill wouldn't know reality if it slapped her smack dab in the face. And as for Buzzkill's son, I have talked to him personally. He called my house. I know where his head is at.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2004, 05:10:00 PM »
I've talked to your boys too Carey. . .
They've called here several times.

As for evidence - you may spout off all you wish about what is and what isn't -
Thank God it isn't up to the likes of you.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2004, 05:11:00 PM »
Get over your bad self Carey.  What an absolute insufferable ass you still are.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2004, 05:39:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-31 13:50:00, Carey wrote:

The accusations themselves may be true none the less, BUT THEY ARE NOT EVIDENCE. People telling the same stories over and over, does not make them true.


Many different people from different places over the course of years telling similar stories about the same organizations and people is evidence (but not proof). Sworn affidavits that make more sense taken together than anything the proponants have come up w/ to the contrary is evidence (still not proof). News articles, again, many different people who don't know each other describing the same people behaving the same way AND fact checking by various media organizations (who routinely wager their assets against their work) is yet more evidence (still not proof, though). Photographs of children in something like dog kennels, physical evidence like words carved on walls, bruises, scars, illness, weight loss, etc. -- more evidence, STILL not proof.

Taken all together, that's a pretty compelling pile of evidence, don't you think? I do. I'm pretty well convinced. But there's one thing I can see that you probably can't and hopefully never will, Carey. I read and listen to what these kids and their parents tell me about their experience. Not just the major points, but the way they describe what it feels like to be afraid to smile at someone or afraid to cry and to never have a moment that you're not under close scrutiny and busy worrying about avoiding some minor infraction that will get you punished in whatever way is most harmful to you personally, be it physical pain, humiliation in front of the other kids, not going home or talking to family. Whatever your weakness.

And I pay attention to how they describe having been maneuvered into the situation. It all adds up.

More compelling evidence.

So, in the face of all this very compelling evidence, what's the other side of the story? "It works, we don't know how, we just trust the process and anyone who says otherwise are all liars, losers and lunatics." I don't find that very compelling at all. Do you?

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary

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Offline Carey

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« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2004, 05:57:00 PM »
If I said you're blue, would you then say, "no you're blue."  

Ha Ha Ha.  My boys called your anonymous house. Does an anonymous person with an anonymous house have an anonymous phone number.  Did they dial 1-800-anonymous.  That is really funny.  They must have dialed 1-800-anonymous-collect.

Once again, no argument on your part to try and make your case for "testimony" being "evidence."  I guess my point hit you hard.  Testimony is testimony.  Testimony is a statement.  A statement is words and "words are all I have to take your heart away."


Do I make your blood boil anonymous?

Name calling...how childish.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #28 on: December 31, 2004, 06:04:00 PM »
There's more than one anon here Carey.  I didn't say anything about your boys calling my house.  I'm just one who's been around here for a while and it just amazes me to come back and see you STILL being nothing but a condescending bitch.  You don't make my blood boil at all.  I just sit here and roll my eyes and feel badly for anyone who has to come in contact with you.  Talk about someone with "issues" :lol: .  DAMN woman.  Get a life.
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Offline Carey

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« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2004, 06:15:00 PM »
Ginger,

Personally, I have seen how both sides work.  I have seen those who are for programs lie and manipulate and I have seen those who are against the programs do the same damn thing. Both sides have an agenda and both sides are playing with peoples lives.  

Somewhere in the middle "lies the truth." Based on all of the testimony, I am not sure exactly where that is.

Do I think kids have been hurt.  Sure I do. Do I think that some of the kids who claim to have been hurt are lying?  Yes I do.
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