Good news?

[Carey]

There's more than one anon here Carey. I didn't say anything about your boys calling my house. I'm just one who's been around here for a while and it just amazes me to come back and see you STILL being nothing but a condescending bitch. You don't make my blood boil at all. I just sit here and roll my eyes and feel badly for anyone who has to come in contact with you. Talk about someone with "issues"  . DAMN woman. Get a life

More than one anon?  Oh really?  Well let me help you.  The phone call part is for anon 1 and the name calling is for anon 2.  Anon 2 would be You.

Hope that cleared things up for you.

Any way,

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

Name calling again.  Curse words at that.  And you are calling me a B____.  I think I got ya stirred.  Come on, admit it.  The truth shall set you free.....

[Antigen]

On 2004-12-31 10:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Wouldn't be impossible not to know this?  

It would be possible not to know it was abuse. If a kid is put in a state of severe psychological pressure, and told over and over again, that it was the victim's fault and that if only the victim would have followed the rules s/he wouldn't have been abused, and that it's for the victim's "own good", and that it can't be considered abuse because the victim "asked" for it to happen by breaking the rules, etc. etc., the kid might just end up believing it. That's what the program is all about, actually. "

Here's the best way I can explain it. All those little things add up. Those petty sounding grievances that you just quit bothering to talk about because you just can't explain it to people who haven't experienced something very similar.

There are hundreds of spoken and unspoken rules pertaining to everything from posture to facial expression, taboo words and phrases and, most importantly, attitude. In order to make it, you have to really learn and accept the dogma so that it becomes second (or first) nature; so that your responses, verbal or otherwise, are convincingly "appropriate".

For someone who's trying hard and voluntarily to embrace the Program, that's a hell of a juggling act. For someone who's trying to maintain a grasp on their own view while convincing others, it's crazy making!

Either way, predicting staff and higher phase clients' response to everything that happens becomes a full time job. It's very much like what a battered woman has to do; keeping him from 'getting upset' becomes a full time job.

In the course of doing that, whether you intend to internalize it or not, you lose sight of your first, natural responses to a lot of things. You can watch, even take part in doing horrible damage to someone and sincerely not view it that way.

I'm sure you've all read of the numerous accounts of kids who were already dead before the staff and/or other clients realized they weren't faking. And you must think those kids and staff are monsters. And I can't disagree w/ that. But do you understand that they probably really don't know it? In their alternate reality, kids w/ legitimate grievances are like ghosts; some crazy people believe in them, but "we enlightened ones" know better. So when a kid is panting, yelling, running, acting panicked or angy or sick, the are not looking for a kid who needs assistance or medical care or something. Those kids are just figments of the coddling yuppie imagination. So they see what they believe in; a manipulative kid who's just faking.

That's why it happens again and again and why their supporter will go to any lengths to defend them. They simply unsee what they're doing. They're detached from reality in the most litteral of ways.

Come the millennium,

month 12,

in the home of greatest power,

the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus

[Antigen]

On 2004-12-31 15:15:00, Carey wrote:

"Ginger,
Both sides have an agenda and both sides are playing with peoples lives.

No, all sides have an agenda (there are far more than two sides to this story). That's because we're dealing w/ people and people always have motivations for what they do. There is no such thing as any human word or deed that is not backed by some agenda. Well, there is, but generally we view that kind of random, meaningless activity as at least neurotic.

You can make an educated guess about how reliable someone is by watching them over time. Have they been up front? Are their actions consistent w/ their stated agenda? (if they state one at all) Are their actions consistent w/ each other (some people are not intentionally deceptive, but merely confused)

When you say "those who are against the programs" are you talking about long-term survivors who have no current involvement w/ programs today? Or are you talking about people who favor some programs over others?

for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.

--Thomas Jefferson

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 15:20:00, Carey wrote:


Name calling again.  Curse words at that.  And you are calling me a B____.  I think I got ya stirred.  Come on, admit it.  The truth shall set you free.....



"

If it makes you feel better Carey, believe what you want.  It's a shame, because occasionally you make a good point but it ends up being lost on the fact that you're treat everyone with such disdain.

[Carey]

When you say "those who are against the programs" are you talking about long-term survivors who have no current involvement w/ programs today? Or are you talking about people who favor some programs over others?

I am talking about the individuals I have come in contact with over the last couple of years.

Hell, I am "against the programs."

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 16:09:00, Carey wrote:

"

When you say "those who are against the programs" are you talking about long-term survivors who have no current involvement w/ programs today? Or are you talking about people who favor some programs over others?

I am talking about the individuals I have come in contact with over the last couple of years.
"

Well that could include both groups she listed.  Care to actually answer the question now?

[Carey]

If it makes you feel better Carey, believe what you want. It's a shame, because occasionally you make a good point but it ends up being lost on the fact that you're treat everyone with such disdain.

Do you speak for "everyone"?  Maybe you think you do.  

I know I don't.  I wouldn't even claim to.

Did I make another "good point"?

[Carey]

On 2004-12-31 16:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-12-31 16:09:00, Carey wrote:


"

When you say "those who are against the programs" are you talking about long-term survivors who have no current involvement w/ programs today? Or are you talking about people who favor some programs over others?

I am talking about the individuals I have come in contact with over the last couple of years.

"

Well that could include both groups she listed.  Care to actually answer the question now?"

I think Ginger knows my answer.  It doesn't matter if you do.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 16:13:00, Carey wrote:

"

If it makes you feel better Carey, believe what you want. It's a shame, because occasionally you make a good point but it ends up being lost on the fact that you're treat everyone with such disdain.

Do you speak for "everyone"?  Maybe you think you do.  



I know I don't.  I wouldn't even claim to.



Did I make another "good point"?

"

Yep, sure did. Just proved mine right there dear.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 16:15:00, Carey wrote:

"

On 2004-12-31 16:11:00, Anonymous wrote:


"

On 2004-12-31 16:09:00, Carey wrote:



"

When you say "those who are against the programs" are you talking about long-term survivors who have no current involvement w/ programs today? Or are you talking about people who favor some programs over others?

I am talking about the individuals I have come in contact with over the last couple of years.


"

Well that could include both groups she listed.  Care to actually answer the question now?"

I think Ginger knows my answer.  It doesn't matter if you do."

and there again hon.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 12:39:00, spots wrote:

"

On 2004-12-31 10:07:00, Dolphin wrote:


"Can you say without a doubt that there were abuses going on?  Hearsay is one thing, but you even admitted you didn't witness any.  

The knee-jerk definition of abuse is knocking some kid around, anywhere from cuffing them upside the head, to hog-tying them on a concrete floor for days on end.  I feel it is incorrect to say abuse can only be categorized as physical beatings.



That said, I will relate what my grandaughter has said over the last year living with us, about what she witnessed or knew was happening at Casa by the Sea.  BTW, I believe her for a lot of reasons beyond our blood relationship, mostly because what she sometimes-reluctantly mentions follows to a "T" the experiences of literally hundreds of other survivors I have listened to.



She personally spent a huge amount of time, more than two months, in solitary confinement when she first was entered into Casa.  This was kept from her parent, the family rep flat-out lying about what was happening to her, with 6 of her first 8 letters being destroyed until she finally was able to write an acceptable "manipulation" letter, stating that "...this place is not what it seems".  She does recognize the inequity of her punishments, especially the random, capricious nature of more days solitary punishment meted out by newly-minted higher level kids (who have absolutely NO business disciplining anybody, much less with the life-and-death circumstances Casa kids feared).  My kid often says with chilling quietness that she was absolutely convinced she would die in Casa. She was 14 years old.  



One girl in her dorm had spent most of her first year there in R&R, the aforementioned-hog-tying room.  This girl had permanent scars on her chin from spending so much time resting it on the concrete floor.



Only days before my kid arrived, a girl had attempted an escape by scaling the high stucco wall surrounding the entire compound. Although my kid did not personally meet this girl, her exploits spread throughout the compound (hearsay?), with credible witnesses relating the girl had a crushed pelvis from her fall from the wall.  



Would you consider it abuse to withold toilet paper, sanitary napkins, aspirin, etc.?  This was done to children I personally know.  Would you consider it abusive to deny people toilet privileges until they were forced to soil themselves?  My own kid was denied orthodontic care for more than 8 months, and when *something* was finally done, it was done in the most cruel and terrifying manner.  Interestingly, my kid tells of the trips to the Ensenada dentist, but really doesn't recognize or think of the mean, purposely-scarey events as abuse.  She will, eventually.



These are credible instances of abuse, from a witness...and this was only on the girls' side, even though the boys' side of Casa was notorious for greater wrongs.  I personally know one skinny 16yo boy who lost 25 pounds in 4 months at Casa, due directly to witheld food. This same boy, being somewhat large for his age, was recruited to drag boys to R&R, kicking and screaming, although he himself was never committed to that space.  One boy I have spoken to suffered grevious physical injuries at High Impact, the facility that is-or-is[was]not WWASPS, including broken bones and teeth knocked through his lip.



My grandaughter saw several boys being force-marched back into the Casa compound after having been run up and down the steep mountainside across the freeway from the Casa site as punishment.  One boy was vomitting from the exertion.



This is personal, credible testimony from someone who lives in my house.  If you want more, just ask Cherish Wisdom about her daughter's experiences at Provo Canyon, or Buzzkill about her son's time at Dundee.  How much personal testimony about *physical* abuse do you need to believe it happened?  We're not even venturing into the mental anguish and abuse of the entire Program.  Let's just say, you have been presented with evidence a jury would weep over (see the PURE trial), and to ignore it or challenge it is...well, stupid.       "

So when is YOUR science fiction novel going to be published?

[Antigen]

On 2004-12-31 16:15:00, Carey wrote:


I think Ginger knows my answer.  It doesn't matter if you do."

No, I really don't. And it would be a logical error for anyone to paint both groups w/ the same broad brush.

In order to live free and happily you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.
-- Richard Bach

[Carey]

You see Ginger, you get someone like this anon who just can't stand for someone to come on here and try and have an intelligent debate.  They are so threatened by a challenge that they start playing these "you're it", "no, you're it" games.  

I challenged Spots on her "testimony" evidence. Then you Ginger post your thoughts, which I might add, raise questions in my mind.  The questions give me food for thought.  But then....someone, anon 1 & 2, jump in with their useless name calling and games.  They don't have anything intelligent to say, just you B____, you A__, and then they follow it up with generalizations (disdain for everyone).

[Anonymous]

and here it is again. http://www.wwasprebuttal.com

i KNOW there's WAY more truth in this   I'd be an idiot to say that some abuse doesn't happen in some programs or all of them, but it really is in how you define as abuse.   A kid starving themselves and saying the "program wasn't feeding them."  Blaming the program for separating them from their peers and saying that they didn't do anything to deserve it.  The stuff goes on and on. And do you know why the majority of parents don't believe it?  How could they? Remember all the lies before the admission?  Again, the boy that cried wolf.

Do you think it's abuse when your child is taking dangerous drugs, having sex for money, cutting, punching holes in the walls, disrespecting their own lives?  Probably not.  I see that as the worst kind of abuse when an idiot parents chants...it's just normal teen rebellion.  Talk about denial! Who's abusing whom?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 16:27:00, Carey wrote:

"You see Ginger, you get someone like this anon who just can't stand for someone to come on here and try and have an intelligent debate.  They are so threatened by a challenge that they start playing these "you're it", "no, you're it" games.  



I challenged Spots on her "testimony" evidence. Then you Ginger post your thoughts, which I might add, raise questions in my mind.  The questions give me food for thought.  But then....someone, anon 1 & 2, jump in with their useless name calling and games.  They don't have anything intelligent to say, just you B____, you A__, and then they follow it up with generalizations (disdain for everyone). "

Oh, well golly gee Carey.  Didn't know you got distracted so easily by a few idioms.  

I'm just someone who has seen you continuously treat people who disagree with you this way.  That's MY observation.  MINE.  I didn't speak for anyone else.  

Now, answer the question Ginger asked please.  If you already have in the time I've taken to type this, then you have my apologies.