Good news?

[Carey]

Group 2.

[Carey]

Are you a parent who put your kid in a program?

Are you a parent who feels guilty?

Are you a parent who is looking to blame someone else for neglecting your child?

Just curious.[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2004-12-31 16:40 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 16:37:00, Carey wrote:

"Are you a parent who put your kid in a program?



Are you a parent who feels guilty?



Are you a parent who is looking to blame someone else for neglecting your child?



Just curious.[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2004-12-31 16:40 ]"

Fuck you Carey.  I was a kid IN a program.  I feel guilt about nothing.  Freudian slip???

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 16:47:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-12-31 16:37:00, Carey wrote:


"Are you a parent who put your kid in a program?





Are you a parent who feels guilty?





Are you a parent who is looking to blame someone else for neglecting your child?





Just curious.[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2004-12-31 16:40 ]"

Fuck you Carey.  I was a kid IN a program.  I feel guilt about nothing.  Freudian slip???"

Which program?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 16:36:00, Carey wrote:

"Group 2."

Thank you.  That wasn't so hard now was it?

[Carey]

Which program?  

But, you really shouldn't dish it out, if you can't take it.  So, are you as angry with your parents as you are with me?

[Antigen]

Carrey, if you want to get any meaningful discussion out of this forum, you really have to let things roll off.

You're right, some participants in this particular discussion are trying strenuously to disrupt any kind of meaningful dialog. I don't think Spots is one of them.

LOTS of people involved in the broader debate, personally or or as an area of activism (both groups and others not specified) have gotten fooled, confused and/or allied themselves w/ others who have misrepresented (or been confused about) their agendas.

You've learned a lot over the past couple of years. So have I. So have some of them. Them others, well just don't respond to them.

Finally, even though some of Group 1 have allied w/ the wolf in sheep's clothing doesn't mean the have bad intentions or are stupid or will never discover their error. No sense picking enemies where you don't have too, ya' know?

Serious shit here! When you first came around, I thought something didn't add up because of the nature of the attack on you. It looked and smelled to me just exactly like a Program smear campaign. And, the more we discuss and learn about the topics (putting aside, personal attacks intemperate outbursts) the more it looks like that. But it really took a LOT of effort and time to pick out the occasional relavent detail from all the mud slinging.

Just ignore the bullshit. Honestly, your knowledge and insights are welcome here and so are everyone else's. You'll make more progress getting at the truth if you don't take part in the bullshit.

Every man has a property in his own person.
This nobody has any right to but himself.
The labor of his body and the work of his
 hands are properly his.


--John Locke

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 16:53:00, Carey wrote:

"Which program?  



But, you really shouldn't dish it out, if you can't take it.  So, are you as angry with your parents as you are with me?"

My mom, no.  My dad, yes.  Talks to people who don't agree with him exactly like you do.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 16:53:00, Antigen wrote:

 Honestly, your knowledge and insights are welcome here and so are everyone else's.

See, I agree with this completely.  Carey, you and I are much more on the same page than you could possibly imagine.  I just can't stand to see someone who obviously has well thought out, intelligent points taint them with the way you deal with people.  I agree with most of what you post and always get something out of it.  But it gets to the point where you really discredit yourself.  Whether or not you realize it, you can really come across as a self-serving, self-righteous, sancitmonious, pompass ass to people.  And very often, to the people who are more "on your side" (for lack of a better term) than you know.  When you do that, they tend not to listen to what you're saying...all they hear is HOW you're saying it.

[Carey]

I hear ya Ginger.  

But sometimes you have to call it as you see it.  You know why?  Because ya have to make people realize that there are probably a whole lot of others who see it exactly the same.  

I think there are probably a whole lot of people out in the real world who really don't give a rats ass about what is happening to rebellous teens.  And when you get one who comes across like our Anon, well it makes people care even less.  You see anon needs to convince those who are skeptical, those who question and debate issues like myself, that what is happening to teens is true.  He/she will never do it by attacking people.  All he/she will ever do is make them even more sure that these places should exist.

Now if the point of fornits is to just let people belly ache, then shut out those that raise questions.  But, if the point of fornits is to make a difference then teens and parents against programs need to learn to debate without attacking.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 17:08:00, Carey wrote:

"I hear ya Ginger.  



But sometimes you have to call it as you see it.  You know why?  Because ya have to make people realize that there are probably a whole lot of others who see it exactly the same.  



I think there are probably a whole lot of people out in the real world who really don't give a rats ass about what is happening to rebellous teens.  And when you get one who comes across like our Anon, well it makes people care even less.  You see anon needs to convince those who are skeptical, those who question and debate issues like myself, that what is happening to teens is true.  He/she will never do it by attacking people.  All he/she will ever do is make them even more sure that these places should exist.



Now if the point of fornits is to just let people belly ache, then shut out those that raise questions.  But, if the point of fornits is to make a difference then teens and parents against programs need to learn to debate without attacking.  "

I could have written this about you Carey.

[Carey]

On 2004-12-31 17:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-12-31 16:53:00, Antigen wrote:


 Honestly, your knowledge and insights are welcome here and so are everyone else's.

See, I agree with this completely.  Carey, you and I are much more on the same page than you could possibly imagine.  I just can't stand to see someone who obviously has well thought out, intelligent points taint them with the way you deal with people.  I agree with most of what you post and always get something out of it.  But it gets to the point where you really discredit yourself.  Whether or not you realize it, you can really come across as a self-serving, self-righteous, sancitmonious, pompass ass to people.  And very often, to the people who are more "on your side" (for lack of a better term) than you know.  When you do that, they tend not to listen to what you're saying...all they hear is HOW you're saying it.



"

Is it about how I say it that is important?  Or, is it about what is said that is important?  I am not here trying to make friends.  I am not trying to impress anyone.  

I came on and posted that personal testimonies don't equate to evidence.  I posted that I have talked to Buzzkills son.  I was attacked for doing so.  Why?  Because someone felt threatned by my thoughts.

How better should I have started the conversation?

[Antigen]

On 2004-12-31 17:08:00, Carey wrote:


Now if the point of fornits is to just let people belly ache, then shut out those that raise questions.  But, if the point of fornits is to make a difference then teens and parents against programs need to learn to debate without attacking.  "

Neither you nor I nor anyone else has the power to make everyone who posts here learn proper debate w/o attack. In fact, given the nature of the discusion, we can expect repeat visits from people who's primary means of communicating is through personal attack. I won't shut them out. I used to be one of them and they're welcome here. They don't think so because, in their world, disagreement or challenging questions are a sure precursor to ejection and humiliation. But honestly, all of you, even our perenial friend from Phoenix, are welcome here.

The point of Fornits is so damned much simpler than I think you realize. The point is to just lay it all out, warts and all, and to let the reader decide what to make of it.

Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'> Thomas Jefferson, 1787

[Carey]

On 2004-12-31 17:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-12-31 17:08:00, Carey wrote:


"I hear ya Ginger.  





But sometimes you have to call it as you see it.  You know why?  Because ya have to make people realize that there are probably a whole lot of others who see it exactly the same.  





I think there are probably a whole lot of people out in the real world who really don't give a rats ass about what is happening to rebellous teens.  And when you get one who comes across like our Anon, well it makes people care even less.  You see anon needs to convince those who are skeptical, those who question and debate issues like myself, that what is happening to teens is true.  He/she will never do it by attacking people.  All he/she will ever do is make them even more sure that these places should exist.





Now if the point of fornits is to just let people belly ache, then shut out those that raise questions.  But, if the point of fornits is to make a difference then teens and parents against programs need to learn to debate without attacking.  "

I could have written this about you Carey.  "

"You're it, no you're it"

So why didn't you.  Cause you couldn't think of it on your own?

Oh yeah I forgot, you are just a kid.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-31 17:16:00, Carey wrote:

"

Is it about how I say it that is important?  Or, is it about what is said that is important?  I am not here trying to make friends.  I am not trying to impress anyone.  



I came on and posted that personal testimonies don't equate to evidence.  I posted that I have talked to Buzzkills son.  I was attacked for doing so.  Why?  Because someone felt threatned by my thoughts.



How better should I have started the conversation?

 "

Both what you say and[/i] how you say it, albeit to a lesser degree.  Of course this isn't about making friends, but damn, do you really have to be as rude as you come across?  

No one felt threatened by what you said about speaking to her son.  I don't even have the slightest clue about your argument with Spots, but more times than not(not always) I see you come off with such smugness.  Again, it really distracts from the entirety of your message...which I mostly agree with.

It was only an observation.  Apparently I hit a nerve.  All I'm asking is that you learn to work and play well with others a little better.