Author Topic: How about some damn ANSWERS.  (Read 49010 times)

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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #315 on: January 12, 2005, 06:46:00 AM »
I can only imagine how you are feeling right now. Which facility was she sent to? I am a graduate of CCM and Casa. Mainly Cross Creek though. Well, I too used to lie compulsively. I never did drugs or had a problem with alcohol. Be prepared to hear all sorts of views and sides. I would say read up on all the archives. Personally it helped me. I don't agree with everything that goes on in the seminars or the program. But I took what I needed and left what I didn't. I've been out for over 3 years and am living my life the way I always wanted to. Feel free to ask any questions. I do mean any. I will answer them fully.
I've got one question for you, did you ever ask her why she lies all the time?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #316 on: January 12, 2005, 09:44:00 AM »
Chi3,

Get your kid out of there, NOW. WWASPS programs are extremely abusive and harmful.

If you need any help in getting her back home, or more info, check here: http://www.isaccorp.org
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #317 on: January 12, 2005, 09:46:00 AM »
Told you. Get ready for a bunch of opinions, facts, lies, truth, you name it.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #318 on: January 12, 2005, 10:15:00 AM »
Sounds like she's already begun to realize the truth herself.  She probably doesn't need any convincing from us if she'll trust her own instincts, which right now seem to be telling her that there is something very, very wrong.
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Offline Timoclea

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« Reply #319 on: January 12, 2005, 11:03:00 AM »
First of all, if she sees a psychiatrist there, if the psychiatrist is at all competent, you should have a diagnosis now.  That doesn't mean it's the *right* diagnosis.  You should get a second opinion, and you should insist on being able to remove her to drive her to her second opinion, even if you then drive her right back.  If they won't let you remove her for needed medical treatment---and a second opinion from a board certified pediatric psychiatrist, even one in another state, counts as needed medical treatment---then you should pull her out of there pronto.

Depriving a child of needed medical treatment is child neglect.  If they won't let you take her out to drive her to that and then then immediately return her, then all the stories about how abusive they are have just been proven directly to you and you have every reason to know for sure.

Has it ever occurred to you to think about *why* they try to brainwash the parents not to question them?  I, and others, believe that WWASPS is a psychotherapy cult.  I don't know whether or not they've got their hooks into your husband or you and he just disagree, but I would use whether you can pull her for a second opinion with a board certified pediatric psychiatrist who is completely unaffiliated with WWASPS as the gold standard touchstone for determining what is going on.

If the second opinion disagrees with the opinion of WWASPS psychiatrist, get a third one.  If you still can't get a firm diagnosis, get SPECT done on her (Dr. Amen has a webpage with information about where to get this and what it is).  SPECT can *at least* tell you whether you're looking at a kid with a normal brain, a kid with a very *abnormal* brain, or something in between, and even if you still can't get a firm diagnosis, you can at least know based on which parts of the brain are affected (if any) what therapies or medications are most likely to help her.

If your child has been noticeably abnormal since age 2, there is *something* going on.  It could be anything from a genetic problem to brain damage from a hard knock on the head---maybe even one you didn't know about.

If it's from a knock on the head, maybe one that happened when she was with a babysitter or something that you just never heard about, it may not fit into the profile of any standard psychiatric disorder and it may be that SPECT may be the *only* way you find out where the damage is (if there is any).  I say this because the behavior you're telling me doesn't fit right off with any diagnosis I know about---but it may be that I don't have enough information, and it's sure hard to tell over the internet.

If the second opinion and the WWASPS psychiatrist agree about what's wrong with her, then you just need to decide what the appropriate treatment for that disorder is.

One thing to think about is that the National Institutes of Mental Health (NIMH), a federal government organization, recently released a statement that said that for mentally ill children, boot camps or boarding schools that place them right alongside juvenile delinquents are not helpful and are even harmful.

WWASPS accepts juvenile delinquents (no offense, Perrigaud, but it sounds like that's part of what your problems were, based on what you've told us).

If your daughter is mentally ill, you might want to consider NIMH's statements in your decisions about the best place for her.

If I were you, after you get a firm diagnosis, I'd contact NAMI (National Alliance of the Mentally Ill) and get their advice about how to handle the situation.

She may need to be hospitalized, she may not--we don't have enough information about whether she's an active danger to herself or others.

But you need a firm, reliable diagnosis about exactly what's wrong with her before you decide what treatment she needs.

If her symptoms don't fit with a known illness--that is, if board certified pediatricians have trouble categorizing what's wrong with her---then the next thing I'd do is check for brain damage with a SPECT scan.

In my experience, kids with loving parents don't just "go wrong" at age 2 unless there is something  seriously biologically wrong.

Timoclea
(I'm *not* an expert, but I have bipolar disorder, I have a bipolar child, and I have a bachelor's degree in Applied Psychology from Georgia Tech.  *I'm* not an expert---but I sure know enough to know you *need* experts.  Real ones.  WWASPS has too much of a financial conflict of interests WRT your child to leave her there without a *competent* second opinion from an unaffiliated board certified pediatric psychiatrist.)

Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.

--Bob Marley

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Offline chi3

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« Reply #320 on: January 12, 2005, 11:42:00 AM »
Thanks,
I appreciate ALL opinions. I always make my own decisions the best I can based on the information I have. I try very hard to find out all the facts. I don't know if there is anything mentally wrong with my daughter, but she is not like other kids I know this for sure. She has avery high i.q. but makes poor judgements on her behavior. She was never left with a babysitter or out of my care except school. I worked in her classes from K-3. She doesn't know why she lies, or even seem to realize she does. She appears to have no morals,values, or any of the beliefs of our family. I appreciate the suggestion of the 2nd opinion. Good idea. I also will continue to read all the info I can, past or present. She is at CSA. Has anyone else been there, or had a child there?
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Offline Timoclea

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« Reply #321 on: January 12, 2005, 11:51:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-01-12 08:42:00, chi3 wrote:

"Thanks,

I appreciate ALL opinions. I always make my own decisions the best I can based on the information I have. I try very hard to find out all the facts. I don't know if there is anything mentally wrong with my daughter, but she is not like other kids I know this for sure. She has avery high i.q. but makes poor judgements on her behavior. She was never left with a babysitter or out of my care except school. I worked in her classes from K-3. She doesn't know why she lies, or even seem to realize she does. She appears to have no morals,values, or any of the beliefs of our family. I appreciate the suggestion of the 2nd opinion. Good idea. I also will continue to read all the info I can, past or present. She is at CSA. Has anyone else been there, or had a child there?"


Does she empathize with others?

Does she show remorse or regret if she hurts someone?

Does she have the ability to visualize images of places---can she draw a picture in her head?

Can she visualize consequences, or does she seem to have a poor ability to do that?

Does she seem to enjoy hurting people?

Does she have a history of hurting animals?

Does she seem emotionally numb?

Does she show an unusual pattern of sensation seeking?

Is she violent?

Does she respect the property of others?

Does she think people with morals are stupidly naive or just hypocrites faking having morals?

Obviously, I'm a stranger, so if you don't want to share all this, I'll understand.

Timoclea

A drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #322 on: January 12, 2005, 08:27:00 PM »
Chi3, I agree w/ the Anon who said "Sounds like she's already begun to realize the truth herself." Follow your gut.

My first thought is that if you know your daughter is a compulsive liar then you have absolutely NO way of gaining even thin assurance that everything is ok. Timoclea has some good advice there.

Second, if your daughter really is emotionally or psychologically frail then it's a pretty good bet she wouldn't come out of the Program anywhere near as self posessed and clear-headed as Perrigaud. (and I do think you'll realize even more about your fairly recent experience as time goes on, Perrigaud)

I'm also concerned about how sold on the whole thing your husband might be. If WWASP is a cult, and I have reason to believe that it is, then you may have to be careful not to make your husband choose between you and the program. Never mind setting him off and not having any sway with him. If you're deemed a noncompliant parent, you'll lose any shot at contact w/ your daughter.

My family was involved w/ a similar treatment cult for about 12 years; from the time I was 6. At first, my dad resisted and went ahead and complained out loud. He was banned from the house till my older brothers graduated their program.

When my turn came along, he went along... but not really. It did effect him, but not completely. Toward the end of the ordeal, he let me know he'd left a screwdriver under a dresser drawer in case I needed to pick the lock on my bedroom door or defend myself against another kid trying to escape. (In my program, kids on lower phases were locked into the bedrooms of kids on high enough phases to be living at home)

I'm sorry I can't offer you any sure fire solution to your daughter's problems. I hope you understand that that's largely because there aren't any, no matter how much you pay or how sincere the people making the offer. But, based on my contact w/ former WWASP students, I'm fairly confident that if the kid actually has a problem and it's not just you WWASP isn't going to help her. If it's just you, time away and just time to grow up will help her and, hopefully, she's tough enough to not be seriously broken by "the process". Either way, there must be a less risky option than leaving her incommunicado w/ a bunch of cultish TOUGHLOVE hategroup proponants.

Innocence implies the ability to restrain from the initiation of aggression, and to question those who don't.
http://www.MisesRomania.org' target='_new'>Sorin Cucerai

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Offline spots

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« Reply #323 on: January 13, 2005, 12:59:00 AM »
Quote
< If it's just you, time away and just time to grow up will help her and, hopefully, she's tough enough to not be seriously broken by "the process".


A very real result for many many many children sent to these cult facilities is that they do, in fact, "grow up" and often think the Program had a lot to do with it.  Probably not.  But...the time your child spends abandoned in a harsh hateful tough love environment will forever be a wedge between you and him.  He will no longer trust you, he will no longer want to confide in you as he works through to maturity, and he will possibly no longer love you.  Proceed at you own risk, keeping your kid locked up in a private prison.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #324 on: January 13, 2005, 04:06:00 AM »
wow! I wasn't expecting so much, thanks. My husband thinks the seminars are crap...for adults. He thinks my daughter will get a lot from them. She has went to Orientation, and we spoke with her on Christmas Eve and she said she likd it. Yes, she lies, How do I know they didn't make her say it? Because she has been saying whatever she has wanted back in forth in her letters, in her journal, and in the phone call. I was surprised. I thought that wasn't allowed. Apparently they don't seem too care to much about that, anymore. I think they eally only started having big expectations of them there when they reach level 3 and beyond. Mostly there like where, you'll know when there ready and so will we. Timoclea, she is apathetic to others and cold,but there are a few people she become "obsessive" about. She thinks its funny to hurt others, sees it as no big deal unless it is a big deal, then just seems really uncomfortable. Loves Pets, small chidren, disabled people, or those not quite quick, seeks out thrills and dangerous situations, continouosly.Not sure if that's all or if I expressed it correctly, let me know, I will try to re-word.
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #325 on: January 13, 2005, 04:42:00 AM »
It's crazy how much I can relate to her. My mom said that she knew there was something wrong with me the day we were driving in her car and the brakes faltered for some reason. She screamed and did her best to get control. I, on the other hand, didn't even flinch. I would describe myself as dead inside. I didn't care much for anyone or anything. My father had once asked me to stop lying. My response was "I can't". There were a handful of people that I was loyal and caring about. They were friends that had it bad and I protected them at all cost.


*I suggest you do read everyone's posts. They'll be helpful.*
[ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-13 01:45 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #326 on: January 13, 2005, 07:29:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-01-13 01:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"wow! I wasn't expecting so much, thanks. My husband thinks the seminars are crap...for adults. He thinks my daughter will get a lot from them. She has went to Orientation, and we spoke with her on Christmas Eve and she said she likd it. Yes, she lies, How do I know they didn't make her say it? Because she has been saying whatever she has wanted back in forth in her letters, in her journal, and in the phone call. I was surprised. I thought that wasn't allowed. Apparently they don't seem too care to much about that, anymore. I think they eally only started having big expectations of them there when they reach level 3 and beyond. Mostly there like where, you'll know when there ready and so will we. Timoclea, she is apathetic to others and cold,but there are a few people she become "obsessive" about. She thinks its funny to hurt others, sees it as no big deal unless it is a big deal, then just seems really uncomfortable. Loves Pets, small chidren, disabled people, or those not quite quick, seeks out thrills and dangerous situations, continouosly.Not sure if that's all or if I expressed it correctly, let me know, I will try to re-word. "


WWASP often lets the kids say negative (but not too negative) things about the program in their letters, so that WWASP could tell the parents that their child is being "amnipulative". It's a way to make sure the parents are in line with the program.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #327 on: January 13, 2005, 07:39:00 AM »
Chi, just be prepared that the majority of these people on these posts will stop at nothing to have you pull your child out. Just remember most of them were not at a wwasp program and are just going on what is said by a very small percentage of kids and parents that have been through the program. They live for parents that pull thier kids or programs that get shut down. Perigaud went through a wwwasp program and look at her, she is doing great. This guy niles is only 20 years old and is no authority on this subject.
I agree do what is in your gut, that is always best. I have personally seen kids  many months later in the program and most of them are doing great and give me a smile and a hello, even though i'm the one that brought them there.
All these people say it's fake and they are forced, i say that's BS, I have a gut to and it tells me they are very real. I used to be an actor and I can see a bad acting job if it was there. The one that cares
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #328 on: January 13, 2005, 08:15:00 AM »
Should you decide to keep her in there don't let her forget that she's in a somewhat surreal environment. If she doesn't keep that in her head she will surely fall on her face when she comes home. Also tell her that not everything in the program is right. This is all if she stays.
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Offline Timoclea

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« Reply #329 on: January 13, 2005, 11:18:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-01-13 01:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"wow! I wasn't expecting so much, thanks. My husband thinks the seminars are crap...for adults. He thinks my daughter will get a lot from them. She has went to Orientation, and we spoke with her on Christmas Eve and she said she likd it. Yes, she lies, How do I know they didn't make her say it? Because she has been saying whatever she has wanted back in forth in her letters, in her journal, and in the phone call. I was surprised. I thought that wasn't allowed. Apparently they don't seem too care to much about that, anymore. I think they eally only started having big expectations of them there when they reach level 3 and beyond. Mostly there like where, you'll know when there ready and so will we. Timoclea, she is apathetic to others and cold,but there are a few people she become "obsessive" about. She thinks its funny to hurt others, sees it as no big deal unless it is a big deal, then just seems really uncomfortable. Loves Pets, small chidren, disabled people, or those not quite quick, seeks out thrills and dangerous situations, continouosly.Not sure if that's all or if I expressed it correctly, let me know, I will try to re-word. "


Thinking it's funny to hurt people and thrill seeking I'd be worried about, but it's largely a question of degree, and nobody can tell just over the internet how different her behavior is from an average teen her age.

If you bring her back home, you might try enrolling her in martial arts.  A good dojo is really good for developing self-discipline, and an understanding that your actions really could harm someone else along with the determination not to, and a relatively *safe* place to get your thrills sparring the other students in supervised bouts.  If she wants an adrenaline rush, the sparring ring is a relatively good place to get it with limited real risk.

I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide.  She *probably* mostly needs time to grow up.  *If* she's dangerous to others, if I were you  I might have her somewhere---but it wouldn't be WWASPS.  Those folks are just scary.

Timoclea

People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000051WYJ/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.

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