How about some damn ANSWERS.

[Antigen]

Perigaud, it sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on things. It's good to hear. And I hope  you never find yourself in circumstances similar to Bill Gagan http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 87&forum=9

But just think how much you could do w/ the full support and backing of your family. Not that you really have a choice, I didn't either. But, living in SW PA for a few years, I've learned a lot about old-fashioned family values and fidelity.

These yenzers are very conservative. I know 17yo boys who are not allowed to ride the public bus system because their parents are afraid of the trouble they might find if they could go to "the city" on their own. However, no matter what kind of trouble a kid gets into, home is still the place where they have to take you in. And the result is families who raise their children in the same home their grandfather bought just before marrying grandma. Adult chidlren living at home till they purchase the house next door. here, there's no shame in it. There's an accepted role for adult children who live at home. They don't live as children, they take on an adult role, pay bills, make repairs, stock the kitchen, etc. Parents (grandparents) almost always pitch in on each kid's first home before starting to spend their pensions on vacations and things.

Around here, they stay together, no matter what. I envy them like you wouldn't believe.

Experience is that marvelous thing that enables you recognize a mistake when you make it again.
-- F. P. Jones

[Perrigaud]

Crimeney people! First off I'm a she. Second, Niles get over the whole I'm behind the program 100%. If it is one thing I have learned is that there are a lot of views I had never really listened to before I stumbled across this forum. I agree with Timoclea and N when it comes to better refining these programs. Please Niles, that whole comment on me probably suggesting a seminar was childish. I wouldn't reccommend a seminar because it wouldn't help. In fact it may even harm or stir more of your anger. So no, and don't ASSume. I do wish there were a way to govern these institutions somehow so less harm would come out of 'em.

[Nihilanthic]

Wow, we agree on something. Less harm from these 'teen help' programs!

That would be reform and regulation, and the regulatory bodies doing their jobs!

Imagine that.

However, it does mean a lot less kids would end up in the programs, and these money making businesses would be a lot more specialized, a bit more costly (Requiring professionals) and have a lot less revenue (less people locked in with parents paying for it). So, naturally, the 'industry' will fight tooth and nail to make sure we dont ruin their profits.

I apologize about how I come across, but I am just a little fed up with the rather large amount of bullshit that comes along with the programs as of right now. A 25+ year history of abuse, suspicion, and questionable secrecy is RIDICULOUS.

I'm just not exactly a trusting person right now.

Just because you do not take an interest in politics, doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684863952/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> PERICLES (430 BC)

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-08 19:34:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"Wow, we agree on something. Less harm from these 'teen help' programs!



That would be reform and regulation, and the regulatory bodies doing their jobs!



Imagine that.



However, it does mean a lot less kids would end up in the programs, and these money making businesses would be a lot more specialized, a bit more costly (Requiring professionals) and have a lot less revenue (less people locked in with parents paying for it). So, naturally, the 'industry' will fight tooth and nail to make sure we dont ruin their profits.



I apologize about how I come across, but I am just a little fed up with the rather large amount of bullshit that comes along with the programs as of right now. A 25+ year history of abuse, suspicion, and questionable secrecy is RIDICULOUS.



I'm just not exactly a trusting person right now.

Just because you do not take an interest in politics, doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684863952/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> PERICLES (430 BC)

"

Niles---actually, there would be an industry shakeout.  The places that couldn't, or wouldn't, comply with the rules would be the ones that would be shut down or have the kids removed, so when you narrowed it down to just the kids on *voluntary* commitment or the kids who really needed involuntary commitment, the remaining facilities would have an easier time filling beds.  The difference is that if all the kids they were taking really needed to be there, they would be having to actually take care of all these sicker kids.

I imagine it's much easier to manage a kid who doesn't really have anything wrong with her except she was screwing her boyfriend.  A kid who *wants* to play the game and move up through the levels and just go home.  You don't have to actually care for that kid--you can go through the motions and even load her up with various responsibilities for some of the tasks that keep the place running.

Realistically, probably a number of the kids who really have problems but don't *quite* need to be committed would be in day programs and home at night.  But at least they'd be wearing their own clothes and home at night.  And their parents would probably *not* stop them from mailing letters to people from the family mailbox in the morning on the way to the hospital.

The thing is, day hospitalization programs are still programs---but if the kid is with her own family at least part of each day, it reduces a lot of the potential for serious abuses.

Timoclea
(Sorry if I called you a "he" Perrigaud.)

[Anonymous]

Save the baby seals!!

[nightcrawler]

Timoclea -- Check your PM

[Perrigaud]

T,
 I guess the way I look at it I do have the support of my family if it falls within what they deem as supportworthy. They're always around to listen and talk to. That's nice. Anyhow, in the end it worked out. We have a great relationship. I'm not mad at them for choosing to parent me the way they did. That was their choice. I was adopted and 1/2 dead when I was so. I'm from a third world country. Who knows where I could be now had I not been adopted. I am very thankful for the oppurtunities I have received. Anyhow, my point is that I didn't get to choose my parents (no one does). Things in life will never be perfect. Sometimes they may even be downright very difficult. It's all about working through it and moving on.

As for the whole reformation of programs. That would be ideal. However, no matter how reformed and refined theses institutions would get, there would always be a group of people complaining and rallying against them. That's the way of the world. Nothing is ever supported 100%. But, I do aggree with the purifying of these programs. Screening employees, thoroughly screening the patients and correctly analyzing them. And less cases of abuse (that's a big one). Again, I didn't have the misfortune of running across this. But I know it happens. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-09 22:49 ]

[Nihilanthic]

Timoclea - If they cant deal with voluntary commitment or only involuntary ones that are actually necessary, they can kiss my ass.

If it takes breaking rules of ethics and human compassion to turn a profit, then screw 'em. I dont care!

Perrigaud - I hear what youre saying, but you seem to be a little too accepting of that 'bad things happen' and had to throw in that little quip about how there'd always still be people protesting it.

The point of a free, open society is you can counter argue or disprove the protestors. If the industry was able to ACTUALLY do that it would be better. But now, it doesnt, all it does is hide behind a veil of secrecy. The CIA and our defence contractors can do that, but not programs treating children. The people making bombs and airplanes have a valid reason, not just excuses.

One last thing, though. Please dont take this as an insult or being a freud-wannabe, but..

"I'm not mad at them for choosing to parent me the way they did. That was their choice. I was adopted and 1/2 dead when I was so. I'm from a third world country. Who knows where I could be now had I not been adopted. I am very thankful for the oppurtunities I have received."

I really am sorry but I get this big vibe of "the parents are perfect, I should always thank my parents, I cant be mad at my parents, they can do no wrong, I should just accept it and shut up and be glad".

That kind of programming is one of the roots to my passion against this industry. They adopted you for themselves. You just had dumb luck either way, Perrigaud. Believe it or not you dont owe anyone jack.

Your real parents abaondoned you, the adoptive (and wealthy) ones got a foreign kid for their own reasons and the program spat your current self out for their profit.

From where I stand all 3 sets of people deserve a good slap in the face, and you dont have to have everything rest on your shoulders.

You have your freedom now and youre trying to reconcile what happened out of your control. Then you bump into people like me who forget your feelings in our empassioned drive to try to get justice for those abused and prevent it in the future.

So, Perrigaud, I'm sorry if I've come across as an ass or made you feel bad.

Thats not what I'm here to do. I just get worked up *very* easy by this and the ridiculous secrecy and double speak of this damn conspiracy (yeah yeah) makes me get quick tempered. After hearing the kind of crap out of "one who cares", the kays and lichfields, and the operators of these places, I've gotten a short fuse. Thats one of my problems I have to recognize. The internet prevents me from directly seeing if I cause distress to people.

When I first found out about this, I had my own little regression, but without a seminar. I cried for weeks when I discovered how bad it was for some people and how long its gone on.

This has been seared into my memory and I wont forget about this until I die. I wont stop acting until I see real measures in place.

So yeah, all the programmies, see? I can face my shit and spill the beans within control of the situation without the need for a seminar. Go chew on that.

Now, I have to go to sleep, to have the wrapup session with my speech therapist that I CHOSE to go to :razz:

Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits.
--Dan Barker, author and former evangelist

[Perrigaud]

Niles,
 Yet again you've misinterpreted me. My whole point on the parent thing was that my parent's aren't perfect. A lot of others would have gone about raising me a different way. No use in me crying about how horrible my childhood was and so on. My parents have made many many mistakes. But I'm not going to live in the past. In the end it made me a stronger person. Also, as for my biological parents, well it's actually parent. I have an open adoption which means I can look into my papers and see all my info. My mother had 3 girls. I'm the youngest. Well, in Guatemala there are a lot of guerilla warfare. My father was a guerilla and died in action. My mother didn't have the means to support all 3 girls. In fact the middle sister died of malnutrition. My mother gave both my sister and I up for adoption. So you see, you should really learn all the facts before jumping to conclusions.

[Anonymous]

Just an observation:
There appears to be many adopted kids in programs. In a perfect world, those who adopt might channel the money their paying out to programs to the biological parent so the family can stay together. Why adopt and put the kid in residential 'treatment'?
Two thousand a month would go a long way in 'a third world' country.

[Anonymous]

Found this in the SEED forum.  EXCELLENT info.
Scary stuff though.

http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html

I. Behavior Control

1. Regulation of individual?s physical reality

a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with
b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears
c. What food the person eats, drinks, adopts, and rejects
d. How much sleep the person is able to have
e. Financial dependence
f. Little or no time spent on leisure, entertainment, vacations


2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals

3. Need to ask permission for major decisions

4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors

5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).

5. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails

6. Rigid rules and regulations

7. Need for obedience and dependency


II. Information Control

1. Use of deception

a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
c. Outright lying


2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged


a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members so busy they don?t have time to think


3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines


a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who "needs to know" what


4. Spying on other members is encouraged


a. Pairing up with "buddy" system to monitor and control
b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership


5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda


a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources


6. Unethical use of confession


a. Information about "sins" used to abolish identity boundaries
b. Past "sins" used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution

[Nihilanthic]

Perrigaud - you're right, but you still deserve an apology from them, or at least more support than the program seems to indicate they could give.

Yeah, I misinterpret things. I'm technically autistic (aspergers syndrome). Learning is part of growing up.

As for your mom giving you up that way... that was, indeed, a hard thing for her to do. I should have waited for the facts before jumping to a conclusion, but I didnt know where you were from or why you were given up.

Yeah, what doesnt kill us makes us stronger, but its not a favor to be misparented. Having had a dismal failure of a father, and by contrast a much better STEPfather, I'm probably very critical of parents who make mistakes or act out of their tempers or throw money around (like my dad) instead of try to understand the childs feelings and help them understand instead of dominate them (like my stepdad did).

I'm not thanking my dad for anything except his habit of premature ejaculation and my conception. Thats all hes done for me. I dont dwell on it either, but I dont exactly just give him forgiveness. If he admits hes screwed up and changes how he is, I would. But I doubt he will. I want more parent accountability.

Guess I got some egg on my face and I need to apologize again. Sorry, Perrigaud.
 

And suffering is not a badge of honor. Experiencing tyranny does not deserve a bow or a kiss. The honor is in removing the stumbling stone. The honor is in the impolite destruction of tyranny through honest, powerful dialogue - not etiquette. Not political correctness.

http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?mode=view&user=1153' target='_new'>Maximus

[Anonymous]

I think this quote is very appropriate here:

And suffering is not a badge of honor. Experiencing tyranny does not deserve a bow or a kiss. The honor is in removing the stumbling stone. The honor is in the impolite destruction of tyranny through honest, powerful dialogue - not etiquette. Not political correctness.
Maximus

[Perrigaud]

N,
  No worries. Life is all about learning. To all those people that owe apologies don't expect to get them (the apologies). If it happens great but if it doesn't oh well. What does that say about their character? Life's too short to be angry. I'm not saying forget about the pain, hurt, or whatever harm they have caused. Just learn from their mistakes, don't do them yourself and know that that makes you that much stronger of a person. And should the topic arise don't be afraid to say what you need to say. I don't think that would be hard for you to do.

[chi3]

O.K., so hi to all of you on this thread.I started reading this thread about 4 hours ago, and was so interested, I had to join this site. I do not know much about this, so please try and cut me some slack. First off, I have a child in the wwasps program. It was a decision made by my husband and I, him mostly, because we were truly at a loss of what to do with our child. We have tried everything, and I do mean everything, and we really were scared she would do something that she couldn't get out of. Her behavior has always been odd since she was very small (age 2 or so). She is very hard to deal with. She lies, and lies, so much, she can't keep them straight to herself. We believe she has some mental issue, but could never get a straight answer. I let my husband research the info for the schools. He chose the teen help program. He didn't tell me all he knew, he truly felt it would just upset me for no reason. I didn't know they were going to keep her there w/o contact with us for a great length of time. I didn't know anything about the seminars, levels, point system, etc. I was lead to believe that it was a"strict" boarding school. She hasn't been there very long, but after I started finding out the story on what the whole "program" was about, I was not happy. I started reading as much as I could find about the wwasps schools. I freaked out. This is not what I had intended! I tried to discuss this with my husband who says that stuff is old info, it didn't happen at "our" school. Well, I also asked some of the other parents. They all jumped on me like I said that I worshipped Satan or something. These people are total "stepford" parents. If you don't agree with everything the program says, you are against it, and you are to be outcasted. They push you immediately to go to the seminars, and parent support meetings. We recently attended the Discovery seminar because we were told we could not see our child until we had graduated Discovery and Focus. If you read Karen Lile's statement about her experience 5 or 6 yrs ago, it was almost exactly like ours. I did not feel intimidated, but felt like we were being treated as children, manipulated to the highest degree, and fed total bullshit. There were a few things said that were o.k., but for the most part, the objective is to brainwash you as they do your children. I am so damn confused! I want help for my daughter, I feel like we have tried so much stuff, but this place is driving me crazy. I can't see how it is doing any good for her. She sees a psycologist that we pay extra for, but only intermittently. I think that the doctor is pretty sharp, but the rest of the staff are so "programmed" they are completely against any negative words about the system. I will never leave my child in this place years! I will never do some exit plan where she gets abandonded! I can't imagine having strangers coming into my house and removing my child! If she was that bad, I would have her in a mental facility getting full time help. I am truly liking the idea about a day facility. Does anyone have much info about this? I am open to all, I am at wit's end.