How about some damn ANSWERS.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-29 22:30:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"I go there because I want to! If I want to deal with something I do it while I'm comfortable and NOT under duress or stress from it. I can pick whatever I want to talk about - I'm not going there to follow some plan he had.



I'm not there to jump through hoops and end up coming out how he wats me to come out or how they want me to feel or think or live my life. These seminars work through emotional duress, manipulation, confrontational FORCEFUL "therapy" and changing you how THEY want you to.



If I'm with my therapist I'm in control. This must be a very foreign concept to you. I'm being built up, not torn down and rewired. Its not about being forced to endure a damn trip of strong emotions and come out being told waht to do. Its me going where I want to go and getting SUGGESTIONS. I can take whatever I want from it.

Time is running out. The Indians' botanical knowledge is disappearing even faster than the plants themselves.

--Richard Schultes, Harvard University educator, authority on medicinal plants

"

Niles - Here's a concept to consider.  Yes, the parents are "required" to attend the first seminar, called Discovery, if for no other reason, to understand what their child is going to.  It turned out to be much more, but that's another story.

What about all the subsequent seminars?  They are not required to go, but almost 100% of them continue, by choice, not because they are told they have to.  You go to your therapist because you want to, so how is that different?

The thing that I'm getting from what you describe is that you're leaving it up to the therapist/psychologist to build you up, instead of having someone help you find how to feel good about yourself and not care what other people think, do, act, etc.  That's one of the intentions of the seminars, and it works.  Unlike what you think, the facilitators NEVER tell us how we should think, be, act, feel. For me, I honestly don't remember ever being given suggestions on what I "should" be doing.   On that, I remember just the opposite and hearing,  that we can "shoulda" all over ourselves.  It brings it back to being  conscious of our choices, "I choose to, I will..."


Once of the processes is called Giver/Taker.  It helps us really take a look at what we give to ourselves/others and how much we take from others.  Taking a "feel good" from your therapist is different from giving a "feel good" to yourself. What do you "give" to your therapist?

Do you think it's a sign of weakness to "let go" of the control and trust that someone else cares enough about you to not hurt you, but in some way help you?  If you trust your therapist, let go and see what happens.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-30 03:53:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Nil, none of my comments were towards you. Relax a little. It's common knowledge that music helps fill an aire. Now, are restaurants brainwashing you when you walk in and hear Sade? No, it's about setting the mood. It's a stimulus. You're right insofar that people don't know what is going to happen.

What straight answer do you want? Give me a specific question and I'll give you a specific answer. I'm always willing to do that. We live in about 5% consciousness. The rest is all sub. So do you really think you're always in control? And this, by the way, is basic psychology not program shit.

Humane yes but not necessarily healthy. I understand that you have a passionate stand on your opinions. More power to you. However, don't let it consume you. "teambuilding" may be a catch phrase, however it is also a common term.

Perrigaud - Good distinction on the music.

Just about everywhere I go has music playing in the background: the grocery store, the post office, shops, driving in my car.  I know if I go get a massage, that I can focus on the music and let my mind relax as well as my body relaxing from the massage. I can go listen to a good jazz band, or a rock band, depending on what kind of mood I want to create.  

Music in the seminar acts in the same way.  It runs from high energy (Get Over It by Arrowsmith?) to relaxing music by Enya and music we all listen to every single day (other than rap!)

We learn team building we use in the Family and also learn that we as individuals can do whatever we choose to, in or out of the "team."  Being employed, for those of us that aren't self employed" these concepts are invaluable.  I know I can do it myself, but I get so much more out of it when I am able to share my knowledge about something and let go of the control, and let others share their knowledge.

[Anonymous]

I'm glad i;m not the only one that feels the way i do about you people here. If you had read anything i said, you would know that i have spoke with former students. When one gets transfered to another school they are starting over and am not scared to tell the truth, although you will say they would be tard and featrhered at the new school for telling me anything negative. First of all i would not share anything that was said between me and the new school, i would only tell a parent.The kids i transport get treated like they were my own and i don;t care if you idiots believe that or not. Again there is nothing anyone can say to you to change your mind, and by the way i never heard of straight till this board, i don;t transport kids there. Maybe it is an evil place.
But i feel confident about the schools i go to.
There seems to be just as much support for some of these programs than not on this board?
By the way AA, NA, and CA have saved many many lives without incarciration.Why don't you go to an AA meeting and then tell me they are brainwashing them. I challenge you to go to a meeting, it is easy just call info for # and the meetings are free. I don;t go, but have in the past and there is nothing but love and concern going on. So when you attack that i know you are full of shit, or just an Idiot!
The one that cares

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-30 18:34:00, Anonymous wrote:


Why don't you go to an AA meeting and then tell me they are brainwashing them. I challenge you to go to a meeting, it is easy just call info for # and the meetings are free.

Been to plenty of meetings.  Never again.  If you didn't bother to go and actually read the Orange Papers site, then you don't know anything about what I'm talking about.  Key is though, you have to be able to read it with an OPEN mind.  Something program people lost a long time ago.  Sad, very sad.

Please show me the statistics that proves AA's "success" rate.  Seriously.  I'd really like to see what sources your citing.

[Anonymous]

The difference between music in your daily life and music in a seminar is subtle---sometimes nonexistent,  and sometimes significant.

Elevators play certain music to try to calm you down and make you forget that the elevator is so slow.  Buildings put mirrored walls around elevators because the people get caught up in looking in the mirrors and don't get as irritated about having to wait a bit for the elevator.

Music is used to affect people---it's used to sell us things, it's used to make us feel religious and motivate us to give more money, it's used to convey mood in movies and TV shows, it's used to attract people into car lots to sell cars, it's used to remind people Christmas is approaching and they really need to do their shopping, it's used by lovers to enhance sex.

It can also be used as part of a designed, structured program to "set the mood" for a particular psychological effect intended to be induced in the target individuals.  It can be used to help get a target individual into an unusually suggestible state.

Just because music was being played at a seminar doesn't necessarily mean it *was* being used to induce a suggestible state, but when you "set the mood" that's exactly what you're doing---you're setting it *for* something.

It's not any one thing that makes for a brainwashing experience---it's the entire pattern all together.

In most normal situations, the various stimuli in the environment tend to cancel each other out.  *Some* of them are directed at manipulating the targets to do particular things---like orange and red decor in fast food restaurants is intended to motivate consumers to eat their food and leave quickly, freeing up the table for the next set of consumers, rather than staying and chatting for awhile.  And it worked, but a lot of places have gotten away from it some as there's also a tendency of customers to go someplace more comfortable to eat in the first place.  But anyway, back when most fast food places were heavily orange and red on the inside, the "warm" colors motivated you to eat and leave quickly, while the social atmosphere of the meal motivated you to stay and talk---conflicting stimuli, they somewhat cancel each other out.

One of the biggest factors in identifying a brainwashing situation is the physical control, usually for about three days.  The reason is that the physical control allows the people who design the situation to carefully craft as many factors as possible to push the targets towards being extra suggestible.

It's not that manipulating people's emotions is always bad.  It's basically what all art does, and the lion's share of garden-variety entertainment does.  People pay money to have it done on purpose.  You buy a CD with rock or sad songs or love songs on it because they make you feel a certain way when you hear them.  You buy art for your walls because when you hang it the room makes you feel different than it did with bare walls.  You watch a comedy to make you laugh, or a tragedy to make you cry and give you a feeling of catharsis.  You watch horror to be scared, just to enjoy the emotional roller coaster of the fear and then the rush of relief when the movie finishes and the hero just barely manages to get out okay.

But it's *transient*, or at least you have a lot more say about how much of it you imbibe that goes straight to your gut (or your gonads) and bypasses your brain.

When people get brainwashed, they can end up spending decades, or their whole lives, cut off from their friends and family in some cult, can give some scam huge sums of money for services they either don't receive or didn't need in the first place, can abuse their children because the cult says to, can have (or end) sexual relationships because the cult says to, can try to  poison masses of innocent people, or can betray their country, or can kill themselves, because the cult says to.

Anyplace that wants physical control of you for three days or longer *and* wants your money is someplace to examine closely and with a *very* skeptical eye before you even remotely consider giving over either the physical control *or* the money.

Personally, I wouldn't take *anybody's* three day seminar unless I was staying at a hotel they didn't own or book and was guaranteed that I was going to have my own transportation and freedom to leave through the whole thing, and that I'd be spending no more than eight hours a day in the seminar or associated activities, and that there *would* be a break for lunch (a non-sugary balanced lunch) and plenty of non-sugary choices among any refreshments.

Spending more time might seem like "getting your money's worth" but it's penny wise and pound foolish.  

Timoclea

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-30 18:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I'm glad i;m not the only one that feels the way i do about you people here. If you had read anything i said, you would know that i have spoke with former students. When one gets transfered to another school they are starting over and am not scared to tell the truth, although you will say they would be tard and featrhered at the new school for telling me anything negative. First of all i would not share anything that was said between me and the new school, i would only tell a parent.The kids i transport get treated like they were my own and i don;t care if you idiots believe that or not. Again there is nothing anyone can say to you to change your mind, and by the way i never heard of straight till this board, i don;t transport kids there. Maybe it is an evil place.

But i feel confident about the schools i go to.

There seems to be just as much support for some of these programs than not on this board?

By the way AA, NA, and CA have saved many many lives without incarciration.Why don't you go to an AA meeting and then tell me they are brainwashing them. I challenge you to go to a meeting, it is easy just call info for # and the meetings are free. I don;t go, but have in the past and there is nothing but love and concern going on. So when you attack that i know you are full of shit, or just an Idiot!

The one that cares

"

How do you know how to treat kids?
Where did you get your understanding of kids?
How did you end up finding this board, what brought you here?
How did you choose the profession of transporting kids to the facilities?
What makes you feel so confident about the schools?

Some answers, please?
 

AA creates dependents on yet another substance - namely AA/NA, et al.

[Antigen]

On 2004-12-30 18:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

But it's *transient*, or at least you have a lot more say about how much of it you imbibe that goes straight to your gut (or your gonads) and bypasses your brain.

Suspended disbelief is the term that springs to mind. When you go to a movie or read a good story, you voluntarily suspend disbelief. The actors and script don't have to be perfectly convincing. The audience and actors/authors agree or conspire to voluntarily suspend disbelief and to pretend that it's all very real for a short time.

That's different from what, say, a used car salesman or a timeshare salesman or an EdCon does for a living. In that scenario, they may or may not be in on the desception, but the customer certainly is not. To the customer (seminar attendee) it's all excrutiatingly real. If it's not 100% real for them, then they don't buy.

That's the salient difference. Informed consent.

Given the choice between dancing pigs and security, people will choose dancing pigs every time.
-- Ed Felton (quoted in www-security about Active-X)

[Antigen]

Wait a second here...

On 2004-12-30 02:31:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger-- here's what I know about the history of WWASP.



Robert Lichfield started his way in the teen abuse business as a staff member of Provo Canyon School, which was just as abusive back then as it is now. At some point, Lichfield decided to start his own concentration camp.



He met David Gilcrease, who was a Lifespring trainer at the time. Gilcrease developed the seminars, which are, in fact, Lifespring seminars (Lifespring came from Est, by the way), and together they created The Program, and in 1990, they opened their first concentration camp: Cross Creek Manor in La Verkin, Utah.



The old ISAC site hinted at a connection between WWASP and Straight. It said that Lichfield was and still is one of the biggest donators to the Republicans in Utah, and that he attended many Republican conferences-- just like a certain Straight executive (I can't remember his name). I can't remember the exact wording used, but that page suggested that that Straight exec taught Lichfield some of the elements of a successful, highly abusive treatment cult (such as the level system, use of parents for fundraising and recruiting, etc.), which Lichfield later incorporated into WWASP. "

I almost forgot about this question. It was for the program supporters. You're a former supporter, I know. But you got your information after the fact.

What I'm asking is this; to those of you who swear by the Program, how much do you know about it's origins and how it works?

Perrigaud
The tactics in the seminars are ones that have been used in different situations. By this I mean that a lot of corporate "team building" and "excellence training" have the processes we used in the seminars.

Thanks. Is that all you know? Does anyone else have more information?

What I'm looking for is the authors of the methods; their names, published work and any peer reviewed studies of their work. Detailed descriptions of what, exactly, the Program is and how and why it works.

It's a two part question. First, were any of you given enough information to research these methods prior to being asked to sign a contract and do you now understand what the Program is, where it comes from and how it works?

Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.
--Winston Churchill

[Anonymous]

Want to talk about "REAL" brainwashing?  How about MTV, commercials, magazines, movies, etc,, that depict a sexy woman as thin, perfect make-up, perfect hair, perfect teeth, eye candy.  This is what I call brainwashing because the viewers take it as fact and strive to be "just like them."  Ever see the downside of trying to do that? Bulemia, anorexia, cutting, drugs, suicide? What happens when these kids can't live up to what the media says they should be?  

Public schools and AD/HD?  These kids are brainwashed into believing they aren't good enough, smart enough, strong enough to make it without meds or therapy.

It's beyond my comprehension who you guys can slam something that can finally get through to these kids that they don't have to be like the media thinks they should be and that is COMPLETELY, 100% for THEM and THEIR success.

Thank the Powers that BE that there are media personalities that do whatever they can to change that attitude and belief.  Starting over, Oprah, Dr. Phil, Pat Croce and old re-runs of "Higher Ground."

Yea, I believe my son would have been "deadorinjail" so stop repeating your same old, same old rebuttal.  Obviously you don't believe in divine intervention and how GOD works through people to make this happen in the physical world.  

I made my mistakes as a parent, but I would have been a bad parent if I HADN't done anything and stood by being a victim to the crisis and let my son die or ruin his life in ways that you don't seem to have experienced.  I won't defend other programs or their "model" because I can't.  

I'm sorry some of you were abused or hurt mentally or physically by the programs you were in.  Very few of any of you on this board actually know WWASPS.  I came here a while back to try to understand the WWASPS haters and I see right through most of them. I understand the folks like Ginger that were traumatized by the programs they were in.  I understand the parents that were victims to their spouses.  I understand the competitors that WWASPS won't pay for their referrals, I understand those that just want parents to keep their child at home.  I wanted so much to keep my son at home and you have NO idea the trauma it caused for me to admit that I couldn't do it alone.  I cried for months prior to and months afterward until I began my own inner work.  You can say or think anything you want, but having WWASPS support really did save my family in more than breath.

Fuck you and your judgments for something you can never understand. No, I didn't agree with the whole process 100%, but I would have never put my son in harms way, he was doing that for himself.  Giving him his "rights" We wouldn't have the relationship we have now, based on trust and respect, that we have now.  Though I don't see him much, he's away at school, we talk at least once a week and I never forget to tell him I love him and I'm proud of who he is.  I did NONE of this, he did it and though he hated being in a program, he tells anyone that ever wants to know that without it where he sees he would be and it was, the at the core, the only thing that would have gotten through to him.  Thank you Cross Creek!

[Anonymous]

Ginger, Niles, whoever - WHO CARES HOW IT WORKS?  It works for anyone that CARES enough about their life to do the tough stuff to get past whatever got them in the mess they were in.  The past does NOT have to equal the future unless you want it to - in other words, if you are in your "safe" place and are too afraid of what it's like on the other side of what's comfortable, whether it's working or not, you'll keep asking about other's experiences over and over again until you decide to just let it go and do something different, or not.

As someone once said - Analysis paralysis!  Stay stuck in your crap, it's not my problem.  It's YOUR life and your choice.

[Anonymous]

Timoclea - you have a lot of "book" knowledge, but tell us what your actual "up close and personal" experience is with seminars and youth programs.  Ever been to one, or had an indepth face to face conversation with a WWASP student? You're so quick to judge and write your LONG justifications, but between the lines, I don't see jack about real experience other than your battle with bi-polar disorder and correcting grammatical errors.   I don't see that you ever answered the question way back...are you a therapist?

[Nihilanthic]

On 2004-12-30 21:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger, Niles, whoever - WHO CARES HOW IT WORKS?  It works for anyone that CARES enough about their life to do the tough stuff to get past whatever got them in the mess they were in.  The past does NOT have to equal the future unless you want it to - in other words, if you are in your "safe" place and are too afraid of what it's like on the other side of what's comfortable, whether it's working or not, you'll keep asking about other's experiences over and over again until you decide to just let it go and do something different, or not.



As someone once said - Analysis paralysis!  Stay stuck in your crap, it's not my problem.  It's YOUR life and your choice.



 "

Do you even know what you just said?

You outright say criticism is bad, and analyzing is bad, and understanding is not necessary. So just go along with whatever these fucks are saying?

Thats WHY I'M HERE. Because some people TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OTHER PEOPLE THAT WAY.

What youre saying is the only truth comes out of some manipulative seminar leader who can take you "out of your 'safe' place" and you have to go along without understanding or anylizing shit to "move on" and center youre whole life around it.

Its supposed to be for treatment not a fucking religion. This is going WAY too far. Dont you realize this?

We *DEFINITELY* care how it works because magic and mysticism is BULLSHIT and everything has a rhyme and reason. This is a Cause-and-effect universe. BY DESIGN. Go bitch at Stephen Hawking if you cant accept that. He knows how it works and CARES how it works.

Accepting this bullshit like religious 'truth' is utter bullshit. Complete and utter bulshit. This is supposed to be crisis management not taking over your damn life. When things are taken to this level its DEFINITELY cultish and is big time beyond normal ethics.

HOW IT WORKS MATTERS A *LOT* WHEN PEOPLE ARE HURT SO BADLY BY IT!

I care about my life enough to do tough shit, but guess what? I do NOT need to give myself up emotionally and psychologically to a bunch of manipulative strangers to do it! I can do it myself feeling TOTALLY comfortable and in control!

IMAGINE THAT! I dont need to get MIND FUCKED in a seminar to get better! WOW!

"The past does NOT hav eto equal the future unless you want it to" it seems you're stuck living in the world of the program, bub. Arent you supposed to move past it and be normal?

I'm not going to just fucking let go and let someone else decide my fate or fuck with my mind.

Analysis paralysis? Go write that down on a piece of paper and kindly stuff it up your ass. I live my life analytically and I tend to get by quite well, thank you. Hell, I even care about other people without being manipulated or forced or made to "leave my safe place" and put through an emotional cheesegrater.

Fuck you.

I live my life in control of myself, without being emotionally and psychologically fucked up and manipulated by others. I analyze *EVERYTHING* and get UNDERSTANDING out of it, and not just leave it in the hands of some unknown 'leader' and blindly follow and give myself over to him.

I know how things work. I'm here because I don't like to see manipulative jerks taking over peoples lives until they die suckering them in, in the name of "treatment" for real, or imagined problems.

Brainwashing is not a damn fix-it-all for anything. Its not a golden hammer and we arent all nails that need an emotional 'impact'. Do you really thinkg surrendering your mind and your life over to a bunch of strangers who want your money is how you 'deal with tough stuff' and move on? No. You do it yourself.

UP YOURS for saying its okay to screw with other peoples minds!

I was clinging to the hope there might be actual therapy in these places but the only way it works is utter conformity and hiding real issues, or simply wiping their head clean and replacing it with a damn stepford child.

I think its damn near proven, now. Look at yourselves.

Oh wait, you cant, someone has to look at yourself for you and tell you how to live!

Everything in moderation, including moderation.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'>Mark Twain

[Perrigaud]

Anonymous, no I never did see a girl get restrained for no reason.

[Anonymous]

Thanks prigaud, but these idiots won't believe it.I have worked with childeren for the last 16 years coaching sports and mentoring troubled youth. About 3 years ago, I was approached to become a transporter because of my exstensive training with kids, Child abuse prevention, drugs,suicide ect..And as I said my experience as atroubled youth is my best training i could ever get.You people have once again proved how stupid and simple you are. What do you people belive that we are living in some society that is brainwashing us to eat, drink, and watch certain shows. I am laughing so hard while i write this!!!HA HA HA!!!Unfortunatly i don't believe the stats about all this youth violence and drug use ect.. has gone down. I don't see it, i see a world that has lost family values and need to get them back. Family should be the most important thing. I have teenage kids that i have coached who look at me as friend and that is most important to me. If i can make a friend on a transport in such a messed up way for me to meet a kid, then i am even more proud. Again it really does not matter what i say because it goes in one ear and out the other.Sure kids have rights, but when they start doing drugs, having sex, cutting and failing school and showing no regard for thier parents, then something has to be done to help this kid and if it means sending them to a boarding school then that is the parents right. So the kid has the right to do all these bad things and not have thier life affected by it. Well if that were the case you would be looking up stats on youth deaths, because they would rise dramatically. Your son has been arrested 3 times is that enough to make a decision to send them away?You  are the brainwashed. Not us. The one that cares

[Anonymous]

Relationship? you talk to him once a week, you hardly see him? wow that is the great relationship I want with my child, get a grip