What is up with Berryman

[Carey]

Deborah,

Are you affliated with Berryman? What type of formal training do you have working with struggling teens?

I was not insinuating that Deborah was and Ed Con.  I was just saying that Deborah and Jeff were affiliated.  I was answering the question posed by this anon. That is all.

By the way my dictionary "websters" says affiliated - to associate,join or connect.

[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-12-24 07:44 ]

[Antigen]

Are you talking about another private list, or Trekkers?

We ought to be grateful that our government monopoly schools are such a failure. If today's 18 year olds could do arithmetic, they'd be out buying enough rope to hang everybody over 40.
--Alan Handleman on Social Security

[Anonymous]

Deberah is involved with PURE/TREKKERS? Is she an ED-CON or just use one to place her child? If she used one was it Bozak?

[scottT]

On 2003-12-24 07:18:00, Antigen wrote:

GINGER SAID "...Anon (Jeff, maybe?) nailed this one

'This attentuated reasoning is a throwback to McCarthy era standard of "If you at any time ever KNEW a communist, then you must yourself BE a communist' ... This seems to be a big problem w/ this issue."

No it wasnt Jeff.  Jeez. I made a point of stressing that I had no financial interest in any educational biz (or the OTHER smear artists).  It must have been the reference to Christmas Shopping (as opposed to Chanukah Shopping) that threw you off.

[Antigen]

No, I just honestly wondered if it were Jeff.

But what do you think of my framing of the paranoia problem?

I mean, I've met some diabolical characters in this industry. Miller Newton springs to mind, despite my best efforts to keep with the happy, holliday spirit. Art Barker and Libby MacDonald too.

But they're the exception. Most of the people who get caught up in this parent movement thing are well intended. Good people often do horrible things to others when they think they're doing it for a good cause.

Everybody seems to be looking for some maniacle, hunched over evil monster at the core of this and I don't think there is one. Even those lost souls like Art and Virgil, without their cult followings, they're just pathetic losers who've invested all they were and all they had in an illusion. That's all the legacy they will ever have.

There never was a good war or a bad peace.

--Benjamin Franklin, (1773)

[scottT]

To paraphrase Woody Allen (I think),  just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.  

I reached the conclusion very early on that a high percentage of posts were emanating from the loathsome organization(s),  specifically to incite flame wars;  or better yet,  demonstrate to any parents who might be "on the fence" about BM programs,  just see all the infighting, backbiting,  and coarse language  that goes on here and you can easily conclude that the program critics were "mere chattering pigs".

Too bad that so many were so eager to help them succeed by living down to the loathsome ones' expectations of us.  

Perhaps in the new year, let's pray that the quality of discourse will be less directed to ad hominem attacks,  and more conscious of the ultimate goal:  shutting down as much of the gulag as possible -- one one program at a time, one school at a time or even  one child at a time.  Divisiveness and reciprocal slander is counterproductive to that goal.

Letting WWASPS, PURE, and their ilk fragment the opposition with their ludicrous threats of holding all parents "accountable" (including parents fighting against the organizations) based on some ivory-tower notion of ideological "purity" is just a short cut to surrender.  

If the smear artists can scare away the people with the most direct familial and economic interests at stake (i.e., the check writing parents),  they tear the guts out of the opposition.  If so,  all they'll have to beat will left  be a few courageous individuals with highly elevated senses of self-righteousness, but not much in the way of juice.

[Deborah]

I was going to ignore the anon questions, but since Carey has jumped in and is attempting to "associate" me with Jeff yet again, I'll say that the question has already been answered numerous times.

8/03/03
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=30

8/07/03
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#16446

8/8/03
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=10

8/30/03 Jeff- How he came to be on my listserve
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=10

9/1/03
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=50

Carey, I assume the lengthy explanation I gave you on 30 Aug was not enough. Like I said before, you'll just have to sit with your imaginings. If you have anything substantial to prove an association, post it up. I have championed your cause from the beginning,  but your paranoia has interfered with your judgment, therefore why I have chosen to avoid interacting with you. I imagine you got a burr in your butt after this interaction:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=60

and decided I was suspect and began your campaign to prove some association with PURE or Jeff. You never answered the quesiton I posed back then. IF I was associated with either party, why would SS's email (the one you posted) state that Jeff was "monitoring" my listserve? You're like a snapping turtle. Let go. I'm not "one of them".

Ginger, as to Spots comment about me "putting my son in a program". Are you sure she wasn't talking about the Ms D Va- Deb? If she was referring to me, I missed it. Do you have a link? She may have been refering to this:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=30

In any event, I never placed either of my sons in a program. I do not advocate programs under any circumstances. I know 7 people personally who have been sent to warehousing facilities beginning in the late 40's to present, and not one of them had a positive experience.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=10
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=10
http://fornits.com/wwf/22036
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&0
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2745&forum=9
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=1047&forum=9
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=10
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?So ... 9&start=10
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=10
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2379&forum=9

Several people who frequently post here are members of my listserve- you all know who you are. Anyone want to step up to the plate on this one? Or would you prefer to remain silent for fear of being "associated" with the big bad wolf, who the majority of you vouched for; and certainly NOT ONE spoke against when his membership was posed? I left it to you folks, who were much further along in your research of the infamous industry and knew the personalities involved.

If it's any consolation Carey- as I imagine you'd give $12,500 to be part of my mysterious listserve- it is relatively inactive these days. The action is happening here. You are jutified in your anger and desire for justice, but you are irrational and unreasonable, you wouldn't be welcome, solely for that reason.

[scottT]

Dear Deb,

Todays anon questions were not directed at you, but at the person making the accustions.  As a regular around here, I already knew the answers.

My hope is simply that we can all dispense with the counter-productive  McCarthy style tactics and stay focused on the ultimate issue of exposing the loathesome ones,  rather than dilly-dallying about who has the most elevated sense of righteousness.

[Carey]

Deborah,

Whether or not you like it, Jeff was a part, and could still be for all I know, a part of your "private" listserv.  I can see why you would rather claim to not be associated with him, or why maybe you have now chosen to disassociate yourself from him.  It really does not make any differnce to me one way or another.  I was only responding to the anon posting.  I knew there was/is an association at one time or another.  

Really though, you should not get so worked up over the facts.  Jeff was on your listserv, and that does denote an association.  Whether it is past AND present, I don't know.

loathesome oneS

Scott, who are the loathesome ones?  Are they all ed cons and all programs?  Or, are they the ones that you determine are loathesome?  I am just trying to determine who the "judge and jury" is.

[scottT]

Sorry Carey,  I'm not going to give you an answer as to who exactly is "loathesome".

However, even though I can't "give" you an answer,  may I suggest that you get out your list of all the loathesome people from whom you have accepted money,  and perhaps you could find some who might want to "rent" my answer?

Who is loathesome?   The answer,  I suspect, is already in your hand.


[ This Message was edited by: scottT on 2003-12-24 14:29 ]

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-24 11:42:00, scottT wrote:

"To paraphrase Woody Allen (I think),  just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that they're not out to get you.  

Indeed.

I reached the conclusion very early on that a high percentage of posts were emanating from the loathsome organization(s),  specifically to incite flame wars;  or better yet,  demonstrate to any parents who might be "on the fence" about BM programs,  just see all the infighting, backbiting,  and coarse language  that goes on here and you can easily conclude that the program critics were "mere chattering pigs".

I assume everyone at least considered the possability, didn't ya'll?

If not, C'mon! Think back to the day when, aside from knock-knock jokes, making fun of druggies was about the only kind of humor not verbotten to phasers. I thank God I was an out of towner. At least I never had to face playing the role w/ people I knew back in the real world.

But really, I would hope that most people looking at this from the outside would also realize that this is pretty much what your family reunion might look like 20 years from now if you get sucked into the TOUGHLOVE hategroup. I wouldn't wish us on anyone, would you?

Perhaps in the new year, let's pray that the quality of discourse will be less directed to ad hominem attacks,  and more conscious of the ultimate goal:  shutting down as much of the gulag as possible -- one one program at a time, one school at a time or even  one child at a time.  Divisiveness and reciprocal slander is counterproductive to that goal.

I'm not really looking at this as one program at a time. That's actually been going on sort of out of the media spotlight pretty constantly all the way back to the `70's. I'm looking at it more as a public education project. See, the problem has never been that nobody in authority could find out about these programs. The problem has always been that they don't care. They don't think it effects them. But it does.

Letting WWASPS, PURE, and their ilk fragment the opposition with their ludicrous threats of holding all parents "accountable" (including parents fighting against the organizations) based on some ivory-tower notion of ideological "purity" is just a short cut to surrender.  



If the smear artists can scare away the people with the most direct familial and economic interests at stake (i.e., the check writing parents),  they tear the guts out of the opposition.  If so,  all they'll have left to beat will be a few courageous individuals with highly elevated senses of self-righteousness, but not much in the way of juice.  

You might be surprised at the staying power of some of the folks who are interested in this issue. Most of them don't post here, but enough of them do read so that everyone's pretty much up to speed on who's who and what's what.

What is most disturbing to me about ODD and other 'disorders' is that there is no real attempt to ascertain the environmental picture ? the social, political, and economic factors that drive a person's behavior.  We're asking the wrong questions ? we shouldn't be asking, 'does this kid have a disease called ODD?' but 'why is this kid so at odds with his or her society?'


--Leah Harris, a progressive psychiatrist

[Antigen]

On 2003-12-24 12:31:00, Deborah wrote:

Ginger, as to Spots comment about me "putting my son in a program". Are you sure she wasn't talking about the Ms D Va- Deb? If she was referring to me, I missed it. Do you have a link? She may have been refering to this:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=30

No, Deb, I'm not at all sure she wasn't. That would explain a LOT!

In any event, I never placed either of my sons in a program. I do not advocate programs under any circumstances. I know 7 people personally who have been sent to warehousing facilities beginning in the late 40's to present, and not one of them had a positive experience.

That's pretty much what I thought.

Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?"  Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown, _Peanuts_ [Charles Schulz]

[Carey]

Scott,  

Got it, pictures clear, I see where you are coming from.  

Sorry, didn't mean to challenge you with that question.  

Let me ask you this.  If I stand up and speak out against PURE and Sue Scheff for what she and her associates did to me and my family, why does that bother or concern you?  If you have a problem with WWASP, why don't you go after them?  Is what ever you have agianst WWASP dependent on Sue being found innocent?  I don't get it.  


[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-12-24 15:04 ]

[Antigen]

Scott and Carey, I think you're both going to drive yourselves crazy trying to figure out who are the victims and who are the perpetrators in all this.

I'm not afraid to say it right out in the open, I believe these programs are cults. While there are always certain core members who are more guilty than others, there is no clear line and nobody but nobody can be counted on to stay firmly in one camp or another. That's how cults are.

Of the two men probably most responsible for bringing scrutiny to Straight and Straight legacy programs over the years, one was a Sr. Staffer and the other was an entheusiastic fundraiser from the parnets' group. The founders, otoh, still apparently don't understand that the Program is abusive or they wouldn't have put their grandson through it just a coupld of years ago. You think starting flame wars on a public forum is the end all of dirty tricks? These bastards killed Peter McWilliams for having the audacity to prove marijuana can save lives and to help change California law accordingly.

I'm not just speaking generally here. Betty Sembler and Calvina Fay saw to it that Peter McWilliams would be convicted under the drug kingpin laws. He choked to death in his home, unable to keep down his medications or food and too weak to clear his airway, just about a week before his sentencing hearing.

(see http://mcwilliams.com/ and keep an eye out for word from Todd McCormick. He just got out of prison on the 10th and promises to write extensively about his experience)

Yes, we know they play dirty. But they also believe, right down to the core, that they're the good guys.

They who? Well, take your pick on any given day.

Carey, I honestly think Deborah's your friend. And I think you're seeing injuns behind some trees where there aren't any. I don't blame you. Seems like you had the priviledge of living in a world untouched by the TOUGHLOVE hategroup till fairly recently. I envy you that. Maybe you're just suffering from culture shock.

But your kids are free now. (Yeay!) You can stop and catch your breath.

[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
http://www.house.gov/reform/press/02.01.07.htm' target='_new'>Committee on Government Reform

[Antigen]

"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by ignorance." -- Unknown

Ya'll, this is a highly emotional issue we've all chosen to delve into. It's like America's horrible family secret that strikes right to the root of who we are. The stakes are very high for everyone who has the courage to look this square in the face.

So lets all cut eachother a break and be nice to eachother for the holidays. Just assume that all questions are litteral. Who can keep straight all past conversation by various faceless anons and screennames?

Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0807059099/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Mahatma Gandhi, My Autobigraphy, p. 446