Public School Abuse

[Eliscu2]

:notworthy:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:
Thank You.

[Whooter]

We all view people from our own perspective which is shaped by our experiences.  If you really believe I am insincere then read the JRC thread.  There were numerous discussions on whether or not shock therapy was abusive and many people here were not willing to listen to survivor stories of how it helped them.  They would believe staff and ex-staff over the survivor’s stories.

Many survivors indicated that the shock therapy was helpful to them but since accepting the fact that any program is helpful many posters here decided to close their ears and minds to any open discussion.  They were not willing to speak about shock therapy itself.  Rather they focused solely on the abuse that occurred at the JR center.  Many would rather soothe themselves with the stories of patients being held down at knife point and given shock treatment then talk about the treatment itself.

Many posters/regulars like yourself are so hardened to your opinions that you don’t even see that you hold a double standard and have closed your mind to any open discussion.  If you feel a survivor story fits your definition then you believe it.  If it doesn’t then you decide to believe the program staffs account of what goes on or discard the opinion altogether.

I think we all agreed that abuse occurred at JRC but to invalidate survivor’s accounts of how shock therapy helped them eliminates the possible discussion of whether given a non abusive environment this therapy can be effective to help some people.  Many here would not open their minds up to that possibility which shows that many here don’t even care enough about other people to listen.

This is just one example samara.  If you step outside your world a little and took a fresh, non biased, perspective you would see that fornits allows for very little room for survivors to post honestly if it means tell anything other than the negative parts of their program experiences.  It is so biased that it comes across as insincere.  Even holocaust survivors speak about the one or two guards who brought them candy!
If you saw that then maybe you would understand my posts a little more.



...

[Samara]

Don't pull that crap with me. It's more deflective BS, and we all know it.  There is NO reason for you to be on this board. The tenor of your "contributions" is different than others who may disagree.   It comes from a cruel place.  I have watched you for years without saying much, so it's not like I suddenly decided to cast you in a role.  You don't belong here, and you never did, and you've never been honest about why you are really here.  WHY ARE YOU REALLY HERE?

(To bring the holocaust into this implicating that since 1-2 guards brought them candy, it mitigates the experience - DISGUSTING!)

[Whooter]

Don't pull that crap with me. It's more deflective BS, and we all know it.  There is NO reason for you to be on this board. The tenor of your "contributions" is different than others who may disagree.   It comes from a cruel place.  I have watched you for years without saying much, so it's not like I suddenly decided to cast you in a role.  You don't belong here, and you never did, and you've never been honest about why you are really here.  WHY ARE YOU REALLY HERE?

(To bring the holocaust into this implicating that since 1-2 guards brought them candy, it mitigates the experience - DISGUSTING!)

Samara, you just proved my point and dont even realize it!  Many people here use the Holocaust as a comparison to their stay in programs, you know that very well.  But when I use it you find it disgusting.  You are so blinded and ingrained with hatred that you cant see the double standard!  lol



...

[Troll Control]

Oh, I see, public school employees are responsible for abusing kids in their care, right?

But how does that square with your previous statement?

I dont see the staff as being responsible for the abuse even though they were being abusive.

So, let's get this straight:  Public school employees are responsible for abuse, but program staff are not.

But Whooter admonishes samara in this manner:

You are so blinded and ingrained with hatred that you cant see the double standard! lol

 Whooter seems to be an expert at the "double standard" so I guess he knows it when he sees it, right?

This is a window into Whooter's motivation for being here.  He simply wants to profit by moving kids from the public sector to the private sector, abuse be damned.  Sick fucker.

[Ursus]

Lessee... like only 'bout 99,990 cases or so to go ... to counter the first incident of program abuse reported here on fornits!

There might be some good instances of debate on this thread, but the purpose of this thread is diversionary. Whooter wants to divert attention from TBSs by attacking the public school system.

I agree! He's always bringing up how terrible things are in the public school system whenever accounts of abuse in programs get too intense for him. And now he has made his very own thread for it! Shows some good initiative!

According to Whooter, "approx. 99.999% of our teenagers are raised without the help of programs." So... for him to prove that abuse rates in the public school system are even just equivalent to those in program, he'll have to come up with 99,999 times as many cases as there have been known program abuse incidents.

I suspect he shall be kept busy for some time to come! Can he do it?  

[Samara]

Well, it is laughable that Whooter calls me blinded by hatred. Yeah, so sorry I hate abusive programs.
My hatred for programs have been shaped by experience, other people's experiences, education, and continued thought. It's not like I just woke up and decided to hate the program. There was a seed, but it was also evolutionary.  People like Whooter exacerbate the negativism becuase I don't like cold hearted emotional rapists on survivor sites. Especially since his efforts to undermine painful experiences is sustained and systematic. At least my contempt is honest, open and directed.

[Ursus]

The TC modality was introduced into reform schools and residential treatment centers such as Highfields in New Jersey (1950s) and Marianna in Florida (attempted in the 1960s). At the time, it was intended to be a "kinder, gentler" form of behavior modification than the rampant corporal punishment and isolation methods then practiced.

Yep.....

http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/marianna/

They were screwed-up kids, sent to the reform school in Marianna for smoking, fighting, stealing cars or worse. The Florida School for Boys -- that'd straighten them out.

Fifty years later they are, by their own account, screwed-up men -- afraid of the dark, unable to love or be loved, twisted by anger, scarred by the whippings they endured in a cinder block hell called the White House.
READ THE STORY
PORTRAIT GALLERY
MORE DOCUMENTS

You might be interested in this, Anne. Or maybe not...

One man who was supposed to turn things around towards the "kinder, gentler" form of behav mod was Oliver Keller. Louis de la Parte recruited him from Illinois in 1967 or 68, where he had headed the Illinois Youth Commission for awhile. He had even started his own program in Illinois, "a residential program for boys and alternative to state correction facilities," then called "Boys Farm," and which was probably loosely modeled after Father Flanagan's Boys Town.

Keller was also in the process of completing his PhD in sociology (I presume something to do with corrections or juvenile reform, as his thesis was focused on that) and was considered to be well read on the latest, "most progressive" behavior modification methodologies around. And he had also recently axed the head of some reform school or corrections facility in Illinois for reasons of physical cruelty and abuse. He was perfect for the job: he had both the balls and the brains to pull it off, and he wasn't from Florida.

Florida created a new agency, Florida Division of Youth Services, and appointed Keller as its head. A few years down the line, they appointed him as Secretary of the Florida Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services which oversaw the Division of Youth Services. Ollie Keller was also one of the founders of AMIkids, originally one of those smaller, community-based programs that were gonna replace the large institutionalized hell holes like Marianna.

[Anne Bonney]

The TC modality was introduced into reform schools and residential treatment centers such as Highfields in New Jersey (1950s) and Marianna in Florida (attempted in the 1960s). At the time, it was intended to be a "kinder, gentler" form of behavior modification than the rampant corporal punishment and isolation methods then practiced.

Yep.....

http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/marianna/

They were screwed-up kids, sent to the reform school in Marianna for smoking, fighting, stealing cars or worse. The Florida School for Boys -- that'd straighten them out.

Fifty years later they are, by their own account, screwed-up men -- afraid of the dark, unable to love or be loved, twisted by anger, scarred by the whippings they endured in a cinder block hell called the White House.
READ THE STORY
PORTRAIT GALLERY
MORE DOCUMENTS

You might be interested in this, Anne. Or maybe not...

One man who was supposed to turn things around towards the "kinder, gentler" form of behav mod was Oliver Keller. Louis de la Parte recruited him from Illinois in 1967 or 68, where he had headed the Illinois Youth Commission for awhile. He had even started his own program in Illinois, "a residential program for boys and alternative to state correction facilities," then called "Boys Farm," and which was probably loosely modeled after Father Flanagan's Boys Town.

Keller was also in the process of completing his PhD in sociology (I presume something to do with corrections or juvenile reform, as his thesis was focused on that) and was considered to be well read on the latest, "most progressive" behavior modification methodologies around. And he had also recently axed the head of some reform school or corrections facility in Illinois for reasons of physical cruelty and abuse. He was perfect for the job: he had both the balls and the brains to pull it off, and he wasn't from Florida.

Florida created a new agency, Florida Division of Youth Services, and appointed Keller as its head. A few years down the line, they appointed him as Secretary of the Florida Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services which oversaw the Division of Youth Services. Ollie Keller was also one of the founders of AMIkids, originally one of those smaller, community-based programs that were gonna replace the large institutionalized hell holes like Marianna.

Wow....didn't know that.  I have some experience with AMI.  A next door neighbor of ours when I was growing up was a scuba instructor at the one in my hometown.  From what I saw of the few visits I had there, it was NOTHING like Straight or any of the other behavior mod places.  It was more focused on simply teaching the kids (all boys from what I remember) marine mechanical skills and giving them mentors to talk to.  They had regular school sessions taught by a credentialed teacher.  None of the TC crap.  I'm not up to speed on anything they do now, but in the mid 70s, it was pretty decent.  At least the one I'm familiar with, but I think they all worked similarly.

[Ursus]

Wow....didn't know that. I have some  experience with AMI. A next door neighbor of ours when I was growing up was a scuba instructor at the one in my hometown. From what I saw of the few visits I had there, it was NOTHING like Straight or any of the other behavior mod places. It was more focused on simply teaching the kids (all boys from what I remember) marine mechanical skills and giving them mentors to talk to. They had regular school sessions taught by a credentialed teacher. None of the TC crap. I'm not up to speed on anything they do now, but in the mid 70s, it was pretty decent. At least the one I'm familiar with, but I think they all worked similarly.

Well... That was what you saw.

I think there is definitely something to the concept that the punishment should be somewhat in league with the crime. And the kids in those programs were diverted from juvie. They were not rebellious teens that sassed back to their parents one too many times. Or were just hanging out with the "wrong crowd." Consequently, for kids enrolled in programs like AMI, having the opportunity to learn a marketable skill and living in what was, at the time, a far more liberal and positively-oriented environment ... was probably seen by them as quite preferable, all things considered.

But Keller was definitely of the mind to install methods of psychological coercion in favor of what he perceived as brutal physical coercion.

Two of the methodologies that Keller planned to implement in Florida were Lloyd McCorkle's 'Guided Group Interaction' and William Glasser's 'Reality Therapy.' GGI is a direct descendant of TC methodologies used in military prisons during WW II, and the immediate predecessor to 'Positive Peer Culture'; Glasser's Reality Therapy would later figure in Miller Newton's and George Ross's contributions to the methods used at Straight. In other words, "TC crap," as you put it.

[Anne Bonney]

Wow....didn't know that. I have some  experience with AMI. A next door neighbor of ours when I was growing up was a scuba instructor at the one in my hometown. From what I saw of the few visits I had there, it was NOTHING like Straight or any of the other behavior mod places. It was more focused on simply teaching the kids (all boys from what I remember) marine mechanical skills and giving them mentors to talk to. They had regular school sessions taught by a credentialed teacher. None of the TC crap. I'm not up to speed on anything they do now, but in the mid 70s, it was pretty decent. At least the one I'm familiar with, but I think they all worked similarly.

Well... That was what you saw.

I think there is definitely something to the concept that the punishment should be somewhat in league with the crime. And the kids in those programs were diverted from juvie. They were not rebellious teens that sassed back to their parents one too many times. Or were just hanging out with the "wrong crowd." Consequently, for kids enrolled in programs like AMI, having the opportunity to learn a marketable skill and living in what was, at the time, a far more liberal and positively-oriented environment ... was probably seen by them as quite preferable, all things considered.

But Keller was definitely of the mind to install methods of psychological coercion in favor of what he perceived as brutal physical coercion.

Two of the methodologies that Keller planned to implement in Florida were Lloyd McCorkle's 'Guided Group Interaction' and William Glasser's 'Reality Therapy.' GGI is a direct descendant of TC methodologies used in military prisons during WW II, and the immediate predecessor to 'Positive Peer Culture'; Glasser's Reality Therapy would later figure in Miller Newton's and George Ross's contributions to the methods used at Straight. In other words, "TC crap," as you put it.

Damn, even the one I thought was fairly benign was....sigh....it's all so friggin' incestuous.

[DannyB II]

innovators in slavery,
Nope slavery was around long before America...
It might be worth noting that those African slaves were captured and sold to us by other Africans.

The American business men of the time bought these slaves. Now we also could have just said no, we don't have slaves here in this country.  

-------------------------------------------------------
innovators in wiping out the whole Indian race practically,
Nope, we weren't the innovators in that either.  That would be the French, the Spanish, and the British, and probably other people too.

 No of course not,  President Grant sent General Custer, The Trail of Tears....President Jackson signed into law the "Indian Removal Act", Thomas Jefferson quote,"Indians can remain east of the Mississippi so long as they assimilate and become civilized, Letter from Thomas Jefferson:
 In an 1803 letter to William Henry Harrison, Jefferson wrote:
To promote this disposition to exchange lands, which they have to spare and we want, for necessaries, which we have to spare and they want, we shall push our trading uses, and be glad to see the good and influential individuals among them run in debt, because we observe that when these debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off by a cession of lands.... In this way our settlements will gradually circumscribe and approach the Indians, and they will in time either incorporate with us a citizens or the United States, or remove beyond the Mississippi. The former is certainly the termination of their history most happy for themselves; but, in the whole course of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to shut our hand to crush them, and that all our liberalities to them proceed from motives of pure humanity only. Should any tribe be foolhardy enough to take up the hatchet at any time, the seizing the whole country of that tribe, and driving them across the Mississippi, as the only condition of peace, would be an example to others, and a furtherance of our final consolidation.
Ya I'm sure you will find some colorful folks from all nationalities in there.
 

------------------------------------------------------------------

innovators in killing 2 million Vietnamese with 500lbs,1000lbs bombs,
I think I ll just sum that up in the term "war", and no we weren't innovators in that either.
I believe that was Cro-Magnum Man. (probably spelled that wrong, but I think you'll have to let me go on that)

LOL.....Right some king of war, like putting a kid in a TC. No chance......
 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

innovators in setting off 2 atom bombs,
Yeah, unfortunately, but only because we beat them to the punch in creating it.  
And so I would like to include with that- innovators in science, and in nuclear technology.

Paul, Japan was not one of the players at the time we were worried about producing the bomb, Germany definitely and Russia around 1945-46. We just wanted the war over and Japan was so fanatical we felt we had no other choice.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

innovators in killing college students at Kent State and on and on
Well, yeah.. we were the first to do it at Kent State, but not the first to kill students, especially students with an opinion.
It was a disgusting occurrence, but it was nothing like the shit went that went down in China. (not even slightly comparable)
Or hell, go protest in Russia.. Let me know how it goes.

We are not talking about China or Russia. We are talking about America and how innovated we are. Paul there is enough abuse that goes on in this country I don't even need to look else where.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

......innovators in selling high-risk home mortgages packages overseas,
I'm not sure what you are talking about.  Are you talking about the housing bubble?

Yes I am sort off, the comment I made above is/was one of the engines that drove the housing slump. To much to discuss now.  


-----------------------------------------------------------------

George Washington had slaves as did most of our innovators. It took England to finally persuade us to stop abusing the black man, yes the very country we were fighting at one time to stop abusing us.
Slavery is and was a terrible thing, but you are not taking the time, and what the rest of the world was like into account

.
Well you have a good point there, Paul. I am actually taking into account the times (The Beginning of our Country). We started right out of the box telling people they were inferior because they were different, so therefore we had to punish them,(sound a little familiar).

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So yes if this is what you respect and want, I will go FUCK myself.
So let me get this clear.. All I gotta do is say that I respect this, and you will go fuck yourself.. I respect it!!!!  I'll pay for it too. If you think we have freedom here well I don't know what to say.

Stop clowning around we are finally having a serious grown up conversation....lol.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Danny the world has yet to experience complete freedom.  there is a lot of work to do everywhere, even in public schools.

 But America introduced the idea of freedom in an actuality. as it had never been seen before.  It was a change that started here,

 but has spread in varying degress across the whole world.  You are trying to do, in these comments, what Whooter is trying to do to public schools.

  You are focusing on the faults in their grossest form, and assigning only that value to the whole.  You are looking at a gorgeous model,

 and only seeing her pimple.  We weren t founded by rejects.  We were founded by individuals, who rejected a large portions of the greatest wrongs of their time.

 They did the rejecting, not only in word, but in deed.  Were they perfect? no.  Are we perfect now? no.

 But the majority of our basic principles are sound, and got us where we are today.. to much more civilised world.. and a much freer world..

 Beethoven was not just a deaf guy.  Einstein was not just a funny haired guy who hooked up with his own cousin.. Just as Hitler was not just

intelligent, and Ted Kazinsky was not just a genius.....


and so in the end, it all leads back to that "scary" language , we use 'round these parts- CONTEXT, Danny... CONTEXT!

Nice read there Paul thanks. Always good to hear another mans ideas on life. Once again, thanks.
----------------------------------------------------------

Freedom is a Utopian idea I gave up on long ago.
That's ashame Danny. Maybe in another life, huh?

Paul

[/quote]

Well I hoping.......

Danny

[Ursus]

Wow....didn't know that. I have some  experience with AMI. A next door neighbor of ours when I was growing up was a scuba instructor at the one in my hometown. From what I saw of the few visits I had there, it was NOTHING like Straight or any of the other behavior mod places. It was more focused on simply teaching the kids (all boys from what I remember) marine mechanical skills and giving them mentors to talk to. They had regular school sessions taught by a credentialed teacher. None of the TC crap. I'm not up to speed on anything they do now, but in the mid 70s, it was pretty decent. At least the one I'm familiar with, but I think they all worked similarly.

Well... That was what you saw.

I think there is definitely something to the concept that the punishment should be somewhat in league with the crime. And the kids in those programs were diverted from juvie. They were not rebellious teens that sassed back to their parents one too many times. Or were just hanging out with the "wrong crowd." Consequently, for kids enrolled in programs like AMI, having the opportunity to learn a marketable skill and living in what was, at the time, a far more liberal and positively-oriented environment ... was probably seen by them as quite preferable, all things considered.

But Keller was definitely of the mind to install methods of psychological coercion in favor of what he perceived as brutal physical coercion.

Two of the methodologies that Keller planned to implement in Florida were Lloyd McCorkle's 'Guided Group Interaction' and William Glasser's 'Reality Therapy.' GGI is a direct descendant of TC methodologies used in military prisons during WW II, and the immediate predecessor to 'Positive Peer Culture'; Glasser's Reality Therapy would later figure in Miller Newton's and George Ross's contributions to the methods used at Straight. In other words, "TC crap," as you put it.

Damn, even the one I thought was fairly benign was....sigh....it's all so friggin' incestuous.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions." — H. G. Bohn (1855) ?

Ollie Keller took the paddle out of Marianna. He helped get a lot of smaller community based programs started (was The Seed one of them?). But he wasn't the best administrator, and was certainly never allotted enough money to do the job that needed to get done. So he got spectacularly roasted by Florida politics (briefly).

And... as it turns out, psychological coercion can sometimes do just as much damage as physical coercion. And, over time, AMIkids ended up becoming a very large program umbrella.

[Whooter]

Joel requested a different thread:

Link to one of the Studies



...

[Awake]

Joel requested a different thread:

Link to one of the Studies



...

We may debate as to the reality of those statistics, as i have argued, but the TTI can't deny the reason for them. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423


.