Public School Abuse

[Inculcated]

Edit: Nevermind I'll just get right to it. viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30665

Were they still giving literal (not just verbal) haircuts at Daytop back then? Did the women have to wear skullcaps after theirs?

Yes they were doing both. I would say though the literal haircut was a fear based tool, since long hair and large afros were a status symbol back in the early 70's. Folks were really into images/persona's then. I believe this is why signs,  verbal haircuts, verbal announcements and so on were introduced. To break through this image we had built that was so self destructive. Women while I was at Daytop, Marathon, Elan and The Third Nail did not get literal haircuts. I remember Joe Cataldo  asking for a women to get a literal haircut at Marathon house and Joe Geramo nearly lost his mind. First and last time I had ever watched a Director/Owner dress down a senior staff in front of the house. Like I said in a earlier post on another thread Joe Geramo was one of the good ones maybe that is why he is gone, as you know Phoenix House bought them.

[Samara]

There might be some good instances of debate on this thread, but the purpose of this thread is diversionary. Whooter wants to divert attention from TBSs by attacking the public school system.

[DannyB II]

There might be some good instances of debate on this thread, but the purpose of this thread is diversionary. Whooter wants to divert attention from TBSs by attacking the public school system.

No samara it is not. Think about this for a minute public schools were here first, then came the TC.s ect......TC's are extensions of the public school system. Talk about abusing children ask any American that is 50 yrs or older what they experienced in school whether public or catholic. Spanking on the buttocks and hands, slapping, screaming, wearing a dunce cap, sitting in the corner, sitting outside in the hall, called derogatory names by the teacher, made fun of in front of the class by the teacher. Jeesh does all this sound familiar they brought the same mind set to the TC's. So samara the only one trying to divert attention is you and your friends. Attacking I think we were exposing here on fornits.

Danny

[Samara]

I don't know what your intent is.  I am not going to tell you what your experience was 50 years ago, or disagree with it. You make some great points. I am simply saying that I do not believe Whooter's intent is the same as your purported intent. And I certainly don't believe his intent is to show a link between abusive public schools and abusive TBSs - especially his.

[Ursus]

There might be some good instances of debate on this thread, but the purpose of this thread is diversionary. Whooter wants to divert attention from TBSs by attacking the public school system.

No samara it is not. Think about this for a minute public schools were here first, then came the TC.s ect......TC's are extensions of the public school system. Talk about abusing children ask any American that is 50 yrs or older what they experienced in school whether public or catholic. Spanking on the buttocks and hands, slapping, screaming, wearing a dunce cap, sitting in the corner, sitting outside in the hall, called derogatory names by the teacher, made fun of in front of the class by the teacher. Jeesh does all this sound familiar they brought the same mind set to the TC's. So samara the only one trying to divert attention is you and your friends. Attacking I think we were exposing here on fornits.

Danny

Therapeutic communities evolved out of behavior modification methods that were originally experimented with (in this country) in military prisons during World War II. They did not evolve out of the public school system.

While corporal punishment and psychological coercion are both forms of behavior modification and both carry their load of trauma, and there certainly is some overlap in their employ, to say "TC's are extensions of the public school system" is patently incorrect.

[DannyB II]

Ursus wrote:
Therapeutic communities evolved out of behavior modification methods that were originally experimented with (in this country) in military prisons during World War II. They did not evolve out of the public school system.

Please show me a cite that refutes what I said, not a cite that shows your explanation but a cite that says public schools did not influence behavioral modification in TC's, Please. I've been hearing this since I was in Elan. Were they the only source of info, no....I did not say TC's evolved out of public schools, no.

While corporal punishment and psychological coercion are both forms of behavior modification and both carry their load of trauma, and there certainly is some overlap in their employ, to say "TC's are extensions of the public school system" is patently incorrect.

This I will not argue because as I see how you put it you are right, I believe I meant it in a more abstract way, more theoretical.

[DannyB II]

I don't know what your intent is.  I am not going to tell you what your experience was 50 years ago, or disagree with it. You make some great points. I am simply saying that I do not believe Whooter's intent is the same as your purported intent. And I certainly don't believe his intent is to show a link between abusive public schools and abusive TBSs - especially his.

Intent hmmmmmm.........why is that so important to you. Why are you here. Why is it so critical that you know one person intent. Does it effect your intent. Since when do you know so much about whooter have you done your own investigation, have you sent out a investigator. What the results.
Are you just going by everyone else information, what is there intent.
Everyone is so worried about everyone else, my my .......
Just move on a live your intent, samara.

[Ursus]

There might be some good instances of debate on this thread, but the purpose of this thread is diversionary. Whooter wants to divert attention from TBSs by attacking the public school system.

No samara it is not. Think about this for a minute public schools were here first, then came the TC.s ect......TC's are extensions of the public school system. Talk about abusing children ask any American that is 50 yrs or older what they experienced in school whether public or catholic. Spanking on the buttocks and hands, slapping, screaming, wearing a dunce cap, sitting in the corner, sitting outside in the hall, called derogatory names by the teacher, made fun of in front of the class by the teacher. Jeesh does all this sound familiar they brought the same mind set to the TC's. So samara the only one trying to divert attention is you and your friends. Attacking I think we were exposing here on fornits.

Therapeutic communities evolved out of behavior modification methods that were originally experimented with (in this country) in military prisons during World War II. They did not evolve out of the public school system.

Please show me a cite that refutes what I said, not a cite that shows your explanation but a cite that says public schools did not influence behavioral modification in TC's, Please. I've been hearing this since I was in Elan. Were they the only source of info, no....I did not say TC's evolved out of public schools, no.

If you did not mean to say that TCs evolved out of public schools, then I apologize for misunderstanding you.

The TC modality was introduced into reform schools and residential treatment centers such as Highfields in New Jersey (1950s) and Marianna in Florida (attempted in the 1960s). At the time, it was intended to be a "kinder, gentler" form of behavior modification than the rampant corporal punishment and isolation methods then practiced.

While corporal punishment and psychological coercion are both forms of behavior modification and both carry their load of trauma, and there certainly is some overlap in their employ, to say "TC's are extensions of the public school system" is patently incorrect.

This I will not argue because as I see how you put it you are right, I believe I meant it in a more abstract way, more theoretical.

Fair enough.

[Samara]

Yes, DB, intent is important to me. This site is not what it was six years ago when I first came, but it was enormously vital in my ability to process the experiences I had at CEDU. I was never able to talk about them before.  This site has helped many people. So, yes, it bothers me when people have nefarious, perfidious intent. Whether to troll this site or to derail it.

[Anne Bonney]

The TC modality was introduced into reform schools and residential treatment centers such as Highfields in New Jersey (1950s) and Marianna in Florida (attempted in the 1960s). At the time, it was intended to be a "kinder, gentler" form of behavior modification than the rampant corporal punishment and isolation methods then practiced.

Yep.....


http://www.tampabay.com/specials/2009/reports/marianna/



They were screwed-up kids, sent to the reform school in Marianna for smoking, fighting, stealing cars or worse. The Florida School for Boys -- that'd straighten them out.

Fifty years later they are, by their own account, screwed-up men -- afraid of the dark, unable to love or be loved, twisted by anger, scarred by the whippings they endured in a cinder block hell called the White House.
READ THE STORY
PORTRAIT GALLERY
MORE DOCUMENTS

[DannyB II]

Yes, DB, intent is important to me. This site is not what it was six years ago when I first came, but it was enormously vital in my ability to process the experiences I had at CEDU. I was never able to talk about them before.  This site has helped many people. So, yes, it bothers me when people have nefarious, perfidious intent. Whether to troll this site or to derail it.

See my problem is I'm just watching a bunch of professional bullies who learned well from there program days try to overwhelm someone with a different thought process. I have read and read trying to find a shred of evidence to show Whooter is a shill, troll and phony can't find it. Now I have been duped before. Just not feeling it. So since I don't see things they way you do then what???
That is the dilemma.....I am a survivor also.
This site is not what it was 6 years ago, what is that supposed to mean .
danny

[Ursus]

There might be some good instances of debate on this thread, but the purpose of this thread is diversionary. Whooter wants to divert attention from TBSs by attacking the public school system.

I agree! He's always bringing up how terrible things are in the public school system whenever accounts of abuse in programs get too intense for him. And now he has made his very own thread for it! Shows some good initiative!

According to Whooter, "approx. 99.999% of our teenagers are raised without the help of programs." So... for him to prove that abuse rates in the public school system are even just equivalent to those in program, he'll have to come up with 99,999 times as many cases as there have been known program abuse incidents.

I suspect he shall be kept busy for some time to come! Can he do it?  

[Whooter]

There might be some good instances of debate on this thread, but the purpose of this thread is diversionary. Whooter wants to divert attention from TBSs by attacking the public school system.

I agree! He's always bringing up how terrible things are in the public school system whenever accounts of abuse in programs get too intense for him. And now he has made his very own thread for it! Shows some good initiative!

According to Whooter, "approx. 99.999% of our teenagers are raised without the help of programs." So... for him to prove that abuse rates in the public school system are even just equivalent to those in program, he'll have to come up with 99,999 times as many cases as there have been known program abuse incidents.

I suspect he shall be kept busy for some time to come! Can he do it?  

Yes, my estimate based on the numbers from the article.  I havent actually conducted any studies myself lol.



...

[Paul St. John]

Danny responding to your ridiculous posts is a tedious job, but I guess I ll give this one more at least, a go............


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This is all about you here, here is where all your problems started right in public school. They had to find you another place to go. You were trouble, part of the problem not the solution. Daytop wasn't even in the picture yet when you were tormenting the hell out of everyone.

Danny, what the fuck are talking about dude?  LOL!  Where the hell do you get this idea, that I was tormenting the hell out of everyone.. I was actually a pretty well liked guy.  You sound so much like a bullshit counselor, it's as if you re doing it on purpose.  Damn, man...



Well if you were so well liked and well adjusted getting straight A's ect.....what fuck happened. You fell off a turnip truck and ended up in Daytop.

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Honestly, Danny.. It's none of your business.  I don't even know you. All you need to know, is that I went there. That is all that is required for us

 to have a conversation about it.  I am not on trial here.  Remember, I am not the one forcing my ideas onto others.  I am not the one who claims

 to be able to cure people with my ideas.  And if you must know; it wasn t a turnip truck.  It was a wain.
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Whooter Smooter he is not your problem nor is anything being sidetracked, who the hell said this was all about TC's......You?

My point Danny, which I guess your dyslexia caused you to miss is that, the discussions here are not about Paul St. John.  Regardless of anything about me, facts are facts.  this is not a board about me.  TC's are the topic.  If I am right about something, I am right about it, reguardless of my childhood. You accuse me of being self-absorbed.  Have you looked in the mirror lately?  You accuse me of only caring about my own conclusions, when I have offered you opportunity, after opportunity, for you to present yours.  Besides, as far as you are concerned, Ginger is my mommy, and I don t actually have conclusions... She and the other fornits people brainwashed me.. or are we finally past that?

See protege`Ursus would be proud of you, using my disability to insult me on a web site that advocated for survivors with disabilities. Who said TC's are the topic, YOU. You are heavily influenced by other members here read your posts you spit out the same language, it is scary. Yes the discussions can be about and for you.  


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You're an idiot.  First of all, I do not know nearly enough about Ursus to have tried to model myself after him.  Second of all, where do you come

up with this?  Danny, throwing around baseless accusations is like breathing to you.

And considering that I have only been posting and interacting with the majority of the people here for about a week, I think it is highly unlikely that

 I have been influenced by them, in any major mind-alterring way, and certainly not in a negative way.  You say that I "spit out" the same language.

  I suppose you are talking about utilizing the English language to express rational ideas. Guilty as charged, but I did that way before coming here,

 and I would bet that most of the posters you are referring to did also.  You will find it is common in many places, in fact.  I know it is new to you,

 but who knows?  Your interactions here, just might make a better man out of you.  As far as TC's being the topic versus me, being the topic,

 I don t know, I guess it is just a crazy assumption on my part..LOL

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Jeffery Dalmer said the same thing.....duh...."people are who they are".

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I missed this the other day..

I like the way you say "duh".  Like Paul, didn t you know that Jeffey Dahmer said that?  Ohhh Hoooo.. I got ya!  Danny I would have to say that the

primary differences be me and Dahmer, are that I am not gay, I don t kill people, and I don t eat people.

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That's not what it is about Danny. Are you really that fucking stupid?

Bravo, Thanks for someone finally getting honest, do tell what is this about. I am all about abuse against children just not they way you want me to.


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Danny, one of the words, in this collective(lol) language that we use here, is *context*.  What I meant was that the thread was not about child

abuse.  It is about painting a negative picture of public schools, to make programs look better then they are in comparison.  Right, Whooter?


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 I noticed everyone wants to move on, not participate, change the subject.
 Why is this brand of abuse not captivating enough for you or is it where the abuse is happening not intriguing to your passions.

I'll talk about it another time.. another place.  Here, it is being used as a weapon.

Who has the gun in their hand, Paul. Think about it ?

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There sure are a lot of question marks there Danny.  Is "think about it", a question?  Either way, you are not making sense, and I d rather not

 think about it.

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Your a phony admit it your here for the glory, SEE ME.....

Of all people Danny.....
Why are you here, again?
 
You know exactly why I am here to make sure you tell the truth.......


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I didn t know that.. Not exactly.  Not even slightly.  But just to be clear, that is the story that you are going to stick with?  You are here, at

fornits, to make sure that TC's, and other abusive centers get a fair trial?


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There is abuse in all schools of America.

Right Danny.. MMMhhmm.. Yup!  

 We were established with the rejects of other societies/countries the Puritans.[/quote]


Danny, go fuck yourself!  You don t like this country, GET THE FUCK OUT!  That s how you view this country.  Established by rejects?
You re a fucking reject.  This country was established by the most innovative thinkers of their time.. But then I guess you are not a big fan of freedom are you?


Read your history bigot,


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Now again, just to be clear.. we are on the same page in that YOU KEEP CALLING ME A BIGOT FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER, and YOU ARE

ALSO DOING IT TO A BUNCH OF OTHER PEOPLE!!!

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 innovators in slavery,

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Nope slavery was around long before America...

It might be worth noting that those African slaves were captured and sold to us by other Africans.

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 innovators in wiping out the whole Indian race practically,

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Nope, we weren't the innovators in that either.  That would be the French, the Spanish, and the British, and probably other people too.

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innovators in killing 2 million Vietnamese with 500lbs,1000lbs bombs,

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I think I ll just sum that up in the term "war", and no we weren't innovators in that either.

 I believe that was Cro-Magnum Man. (probably spelled that wrong, but I think you ll have to let me go on that)

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 innovators in setting off 2 atom bombs,

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Yeah, unfortunately, but only because we beat them to the punch in creating it.  

And so I would like to include with that- innovators in science, and in nuclear technology.


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 innovators in killing college students at Kent State and on and on

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Well, yeah.. we were the first to do it at Kent State, but not the first to kill students, especailly students with an opinion.

  It was a disgusting occurence, but it was nothing like the shit went that went down in China. (not even slightly comparable)

  Or hell, go protest in Russia.. Let me know how it goes.

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......innovators in selling high-risk home mortgages packages overseas,

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I'm not sure what you are talking about.  Are you talking about the housing bubble?


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 George Washington had slaves as did most of our innovators. It took England to finally persuade us to stop abusing the black man, yes the very country we were fighting at one time to stop abusing us.

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Slavery is and was a terrible thing, but you are not taking the time, and what the rest of the world was like into account.

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So yes if this is what you respect and want, I will go FUCK myself.


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So let me get this clear.. All I gotta do is say that I respect this, and you will go fuck yourself.. I respect it!!!!

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 I'll pay for it too. If you think we have freedom here well I don't know what to say.

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Danny the world has yet to experience complete freedom.  there is a lot of work to do everywhere, even in public schools.

 But America introduced the idea of freedom in an actuality. as it had never been seen before.  It was a change that started here,

 but has spread in varying degress across the whole world.  You are trying to do, in these comments, what Whooter is trying to do to public schools.

  You are focusing on the faults in their grossest form, and assigning only that value to the whole.  You are looking at a gorgeous model,

 and only seeing her pimple.  We weren t founded by rejects.  We were founded by individuals, who rejected a large portions of the greatest wrongs of their time.

 They did the rejecting, not only in word, but in deed.  Were they perfect? no.  Are we perfect now? no.

 But the majority of our basic principles are sound, and got us where we are today.. to much more civilised world.. and a much freer world..

 Beethoven was not just a deaf guy.  Einstein was not just a funny haired guy who hooked up with his own cousin.. Just as Hitler was not just

intelligent, and Ted Kazinsky was not just a genius.....


and so in the end, it all leads back to that "scary" language , we use 'round these parts- CONTEXT, Danny... CONTEXT!
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 Freedom is a Utopian idea I gave up on long ago.

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That's ashame Danny. Maybe in another life, huh?

Paul

[Samara]

See my problem is I'm just watching a bunch of professional bullies who learned well from there program days try to overwhelm someone with a different thought process. I have read and read trying to find a shred of evidence to show Whooter is a shill, troll and phony can't find it. Now I have been duped before. Just not feeling it. So since I don't see things they way you do then what???
That is the dilemma.....I am a survivor also.
This site is not what it was 6 years ago, what is that supposed to mean .
danny

Well, there are some bullies here on both sides. But I understand having a reactionary response to pro program tools after going through the program.  I arrived at this site 6 years ago, after years of nightmares about CEDU with no ability to process the experience. This site helped me with that, and many Straight, Seed and other survivors. I was never able to talk about my personal Twilight Zone with civilians. Six years ago, this place was raw, sure, and there were debates and volley, but it was purer. It was more therapeutic. It was a wonderful place to support others, receive much needed validation, and process the experience. Some of us re-connected with old peers, and that also provided healing. Some people apologized for their part in abusing others. Some staff even came aboard and hashed out issues, from apologies to trying to understand a resident's point of view. Some people tried to find runaways or debated sending their kids to programs. There was, even in raw energy, a more respectful if direct undertone.

Then it devolved - trolls and other hijinks abounded and people left (I did, too, but remained a watcher from time to time.) It's sad really.  I can't tell you how many people have been helped here in every spectrum.

As much as his haters may disagree, I actually think Whooter is gifted. One, he is perniciously persistent. Two, he really does attempt to muddy up the board with confusing flip flops and intentional "misdirects."  If he got too crazy, like you and others have, people would automatically dismiss him. He is smarter than that. He has been here for years and it just really doesn't make sense since his perspective is diametrically opposed. We are all used to it.  I stayed out of the fray in the early years because I could see he was a Tar Baby. Whatever you say doesn't stick. He ducks, misdirects and baits and switches.

I guess it makes me angry that he is here invalidating the pain many people share. I see this site as For Survivors. Right or wrong. Survivors can debate each other - but I don't appreciate some pro program hack coming here to invalidate other people's experiences. I'd feel the same way about any survivor site.

Programs have plenty of cash and fancy websites to promote their schools. Survivors deserve our own zone and some guy who has never shown an ounce of real empathy or understanding should not be welcome here.  And again, it begs the question, why is he here?  
He has been around the rodeo with many posters here that now ignore him because they do not want to give him the attention he wants to further his agenda. But he still intrudes and obfuscates.
Obviously, I care. And it is hurtful. It is not because there is no tolerance for other POVs. It's because this place has been beneficial to so many people in past years and survivors don't need another pro-program tool to grind salt into the wounds. What is the purpose to that?  Is it some kind of sick pleasure?  I am sorry you don't understand. I am really speaking from the heart on this one.