Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

So have you defined who is allowed to post here and what qualifications people need? Get back to us when you have that defined.

Whooter this is not about qualifications rather you being confronted to add substance to your vague responses, which is commonplace for you on fornits.   [/i][/color]

Look, Joel, be nice.  Everyone gets to post here, even you.  So dont point fingers at others.  You really dont know what you are talking about.  If you cant post nice I will start only responding to your every tenth post like I do with Dysfunction Junction.
Try to have a civil conversation...... your choice.

The topic is Sagewalk



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

3 years doesnt make a career, so as a career move it was a failure. Most people would see it that way, Joel. Now why dont you be honest with everyone. Tell us the story again of when you asked to be upgraded and wanted a pay raise and they brought out the various complaints against you by the children in your care of alleged abuse, inappropriate contacts and that coupled with your over all ineffectiveness. You had no choice but to quit or speak to the authorities. We both know they were being kind and you got off easy.

So you see your past is just as transparent as mine is, Joel.

I never asked to upgraded and wanted a pay raise.  Again, another diversion tactic I'll call you out on.  If you want to create spin stories I won't stop you.  People will see through them.  There weren't any cases of alleged abuse against me either.  I would more than happy to produce my employment records to you.  Again, another diversion tactic.  There were no complaints of "inappropriate contact" and I would be more than happy to produce my employment records.  Again, another spin/diversion tactic I will call you out on.  I managed to turn around one of the roughest groups at EHT in a short period of time Whooter.  The rest of your response is typical diversion/spin tactics Whooter.  Whooter it's time to stop digging yourself a deeper hole.[/i]

So now that you are here on fornits you decided to change your story.  I cant help you clean yourself up here, Joel.  If you want to retell it differently and provide references knock yourself out.  But you will still have to explain your initial post to others here when you admitted to the above.  It doesnt matter to me either way, just dont try to judge others when you are knee deep in abuse allegations.



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

So now that you are here on fornits you decided to change your story. I cant help you clean yourself up here, Joel. If you want to retell it differently and provide references knock yourself out. But you will still have to explain your initial post to others here when you admitted to the above. It doesnt matter to me either way, just dont try to judge others when you are knee deep in abuse allegations.

I replied to your allegations you made reference to in your last EYA post, if ya want to get technical.  I've been through with this with Mark Babitz, Angela Smith from Heal and now you Whooter.  How long do ya want to keep this party going?[/i][/color]

Very good, then you understand.  If you want to be treated kindly then treat others the same way.



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

Very good, then you understand. If you want to be treated kindly then treat others the same way.

I don't think you're being mean at all Whooter.  I'm just another survivor who won't back down from you defending abusive programs, using spin tacts and shifting the focus away from programs that abuse kids. [/i]

Can you point to the post(s) where I was defending a program?  I think what you perceive as defending is asking questions that you dont like.  I dont think shutting down a program is going to help other children.  they will go someplace else.  So why not try to understand what happened to Sergey?  Why do people like yourself close your minds and refuse to discuss the details and possibilities?  It amazes me how small your world is and how little outside information you allow to get in.  Once you make up your mind you dont like other people disturbing your reality.
discussion will not hurt anyone, Joel.



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

At 10:30 AM, in 80-degree temperatures, a group of staff and students began hiking in a wilderness area managed by the Bureau of Land Management. As the newest student in the group, Sergey took the lead and was required to carry an 80-pound backpack that included water for the entire group. An hour into the hike, Sergey began acting strangely. At first he began staggering, then he drifted off course and eventually started falling down. It didn't occur to any of the staff members that this could be a telltale sign of a health emergency. Instead, the counselors assumed that Sergey was being disobedient and scolded him for his behavior. By 12:30 PM, Sergey appeared confused, started spitting and eventually reached the point of "shutdown." The staff monitored Sergey's fluctuating vital signs, but failed to call medical staff. Sergey vomited twice -- once with signs of blood. One staff member told investigators that he "wasn't overly concerned, because students in the program were always vomiting, though [he] didn't know why."

Eventually, the school nurse got involved and told the counselors to "keep doing what they [were] doing." Suddenly, Sergey began thrashing his arms around in the air and yelling. Sergey's breathing became shallow, rapidly dropping off. Then he no longer had a pulse. The staffers began CPR and called the nurse, who told a field manager to call 911. It took nearly an hour for medics to arrive. Twenty-five minutes later, Sergey was pronounced dead.

Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.

 

Sergey it is.  What do ya see wrong with this picture Whooter?[/i]

Personally I see a single person expressing his opinion and a whole group of followers here on fornits treating it as gospel and dropping before his feet.
From an intelligent standpoint we all know that there are many people involved in this investigation and Deputy Pore (or any one person) isn’t judge and jury.
 
But, aside from opinions, I am curious about how to handle a bunch of kids who are out on a hike and they are all complaining about being hot and tired.  How does one differentiate between the ones who are truly dehydrated, in need of medical attention and those who are slackers and are exhibiting behavior issues?  There were 2 EMT’s on the hike with these kids.  How could these symptoms get past them?



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[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Che Gookin]

 
But, aside from opinions, I am curious about how to handle a bunch of kids who are out on a hike and they are all complaining about being hot and tired.  How does one differentiate between the ones who are truly dehydrated, in need of medical attention and those who are slackers and are exhibiting behavior issues?  There were 2 EMT’s on the hike with these kids.  How could these symptoms get past them?



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Where does it say they were both EMT Certified?

Even with that you have to remember the conflicting priorities of their EMT training versus program training. Anyone with a pinch of sense wouldn't have had the kids out hauling 40 to 50 pounds in the hottest part of the day. The fact that they where is a screw up of the program.

As the program is the entity ultimately responsible for what goes on in every single moment of every single day for every single child, man, and woman on those treks.

[Whooter]

Where does it say they were both EMT Certified?

At the bottom of this article

Even with that you have to remember the conflicting priorities of their EMT training versus program training. Anyone with a pinch of sense wouldn't have had the kids out hauling 40 to 50 pounds in the hottest part of the day. The fact that they where is a screw up of the program.

As the program is the entity ultimately responsible for what goes on in every single moment of every single day for every single child, man, and woman on those treks.

I think we all can agree that since the kids are under the programs care that they are ultimately responsible for what happens to them.  The part that isn’t clear, so far from the investigation, is why the EMT’s missed all the signs.

At this point I am assuming that Sergey died of Dehydration and that there were no underlying conditions which contributed to his death.
If this had been a group of willing hikers I feel a person exhibiting signs like Sergey had exhibited would have been treated differently and the boys life would have been saved.  It is possible that with a group of unwilling hikers that it makes it difficult to distinguish between behavior issues and a real medical problem.  (one of the investigators I believe said this also).

Another reason could be that the 2 EMT’s just wanted Sergey to die and withheld treatment which I think is highly unlikely or maybe the EMTs were so intimidated by the home base staff that they were afraid to call for outside help.  Maybe they were not trained properly.

But I think it goes back to differentiating between a behavior problem and a medical problem.



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[Ursus]

How does one differentiate between the ones who are truly dehydrated, in need of medical attention and those who are slackers and are exhibiting behavior issues? There were 2 EMT's on the hike with these kids. How could these symptoms get past them?

Where does it say they were both EMT Certified?

At the bottom of this article

Wow. It doesn't say that at all, Whooter! Here's the quote from which you extrapolated your fairy tale:

...he was accompanied on the hike by two Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) trained staff, one of whom never left his side.[/list]

In other words, they were SageWalk field personnel, who had received some EMT training.

Not necessarily EMT-certified, not necessarily even full-blown EMTs (although I notice you keep referring to them as such, lol).

Just some "training." That "training" could have even been a one hour course in how to keep kids hydrated, for all we know.

In fact, I do believe you and I have gone down exactly this same road before on this very issue; I'm surprised you didn't remember.

[Whooter]

Ursus, I dont believe I used the word “Certified”  I was quoting and article that you posted several times:

“...he was accompanied on the hike by two Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) trained staff, one of whom never left his side.”

The article doesn’t say just any training.  It states EMT Training.  Che asked where is says they were both EMT "Certified".  I agree I should have caught that he added the word “Certified” to it when I supplied the link.  But they were not my words.
 
The training could have been a one hour course or a 6 month course off site.  They didn’t specify or I didnt see where the training was spelled out.

This leads back to my initial question ....Which is how did these two (EMT) Trained people miss this?  Was it due to improper training?  Did they want Sergey to die?  Is it more difficult to differentiate between behavior issues and a real medical emergency when dealing with kids who don’t want to be there?  Where the EMTs intimidated by their superiors and hesitated to call for outside help when they should have?

I think once these questions are answered we will be closer to identifying root cause.



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