Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

[Whooter]

:shamrock:  :shamrock:
That's what I'm saying, why would you want to do that. That in and of itself is irresponsible. So Whooter Sagewalk is entirely culpable for this young man dying. This is a tragedy that should have never happened. I don't think it can be seen any other way rationally.
Danny

I don’t think anyone, even Sagewalk will argue that they are responsible.  The parents signed over Custody (so to speak).  So anything that happens to the kids is the programs responsibility.  What I am interested in is the root cause of the death.   What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward?  Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.

I disagree with the mentality that we should outlaw wilderness camps or prohibit hikes through the woods and force everyone to remain in urban areas.  There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.



...

[DannyB II]

:shamrock:  :shamrock:
That's what I'm saying, why would you want to do that. That in and of itself is irresponsible. So Whooter Sagewalk is entirely culpable for this young man dying. This is a tragedy that should have never happened. I don't think it can be seen any other way rationally.
Danny

I don’t think anyone, even Sagewalk will argue that they are responsible.  The parents signed over Custody (so to speak).  So anything that happens to the kids is the programs responsibility.  What I am interested in is the root cause of the death.   What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward?  Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.

I disagree with the mentality that we should outlaw wilderness camps or prohibit hikes through the woods and force everyone to remain in urban areas.  There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.



...

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
Thats actually a good point. I wonder if there is a test or a way to determine if/when the child is fit to go on a hike of this type. The program could feed, detox and stabilize the child for a week and then get clearance from a test (blood test) of some sort which deems the child healthy enough to move into the wilderness program. Just coming off butts and junk food suddenly would be enough to put the body in shock and throw off the electrolytes I would think.

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
You actually said it right here then!!!!!!!

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[DannyB II]

What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward?

1. Breaks
2. Water
3. Clothing inspections
4.  Foot checks
5.  Reduce backpack weight
6.  Sunscreen
7.  Adequate food - High calorie diets
8.  Remove Sergey from the hike and send him to the hospital [/i]

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:
How about don't send a drug addict out on a march/hike until he is properly nourished. Then you don't have to send Sergey to a hospital.
Danny

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward?

1. Adequate breaks
2. Adequate water
3. Clothing inspections
4.  Foot checks
5.  Reduce backpack weight
6.  Adequate food - High calorie diets
7.  Remove Sergey from the hike and send him to the hospital [/i]

Maybe they did all of those things.  They had more breaks than usual because they were 2 hours and 45 minutes into a 2 hour hike.  I assume they do these hikes all the time and none of the other kids died or were hospitalized.  Why this kid?  What could they have done differently?

I dont expect any one here to have the answers.  Just wondering if this will be addressed after the investigation.


...

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

Maybe they did all of those things.

Apparently they did not remove Sergey from the hike and send him to the hospital.  Whooter they fucked up and got caught with their pants down.  [/i][/color]

Actually they "did" remove Sergey and send him to a hospital, Joel.  The morgue is usually in a hospital but located in the basement.  The key was to remove Sergey from the hike prior to him dying.  See, Joel to say the program screwed up and got caught with their pants down doesnt help the other kids who are in programs today nor will it help those entering them tomorrow.  What the investigators and people like myself need to establish is what happened.  What was the root cause of Sergeys death and what changes can they make to assure this doesn't happen again.  None of the other kids died or any before them on years of hikes through the mountains or woods.  What made this young man and this hike unique enough that caused a death.

There are thousands of kids who go through these wilderness programs every year and it seems every year a child dies during these hikes.  How can the deaths be prevented?
This is what needs to be answered.  The deaths are still occurring so the changes have not been identified not implemented yet.



...

[Antigen]

What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward? Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.

Well, for starters, you could quit supporting lunatic notions like "trust the process" and "these kids are all untrustworthy, manipulative liars" and "ya have to break a few eggs to make an omlett".

Look, Sergey died because he was placed in the care of people who sincerely believe that the proper response to a kid showing clear signs of accute dehydration is to assume he's faking  for attention and hava a picnic under the nearest shade tree rather than to feel his arm pit to see if he's stopped sweating. And the proper response to that same kid not breathing is to call the program staff, not 911.

The root cause is that the people running these programs are dangerously irrational. The proper response to that is not to appoint another committee of equally dangerously irrational bureaucrats to slap safety warning labels on their foreheads. The proper response is for parents and all other legal guardians (such as officals and private citizens acting in prentis locus) to take note that this shit happens and to do due dilligence prior to signing over effective custody to brainwashed lunatics. It's not that hard. Just go through Sagewalk's staff pages and google some of the names listed there. They have a history. You know it. We know it. Sagewalk knows it. Aspen knows it. STICC knows it (prolly some of them among the partners).

There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.

Yes! Make them entirely voluntary and quit pretending it's medicine on the order of heart surgery or cancer treatment.

Any truley therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. Pick one and run with it (and scisors, if you like). return undef() if /coercion/sig;

[Antigen]

Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that *allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.

Joel, man, I think it runs deeper than that. You say "practices that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students..." Think about that. Like there are a lot of folks out there who would sit down and have a picnic and watch a kid die for an hour or two if only it weren't for those bothersome authorities who disallow it. I think Ursus is more on point when he describes "the same "therapeutic milieu" responsible for molding kids' minds is also responsible for skewing the innate instincts and common sense of the staff, not to mention interfere or run counter to the appropriate training they may or may not have received."

Know what would help a LOT? If Oprah and Dr. Phool would see the light like Montel did and do a segment or 50 investigating the industry instead of promoting it.

[Whooter]

Look, Sergey died because he was placed in the care of people who sincerely believe that the proper response to a kid showing clear signs of accute dehydration is to assume he's faking for attention and hava a picnic under the nearest shade tree rather than to feel his arm pit to see if he's stopped sweating. And the proper response to that same kid not breathing is to call the program staff, not 911.

I am a firm believer that people wake up in the morning and want to do the best job they can.  What ever that is i.e. raising kids, building a bridge or taking kids on a hike.  They don’t say “Hey I am going to screw up and kill someone today”. (I am sure there are exceptions).  So if this is true then they either lack the tools they need to do their job properly or they were not trained properly.

The root cause is that the people running these programs are dangerously irrational. The proper response to that is not to appoint another committee of equally dangerously irrational bureaucrats to slap safety warning labels on their foreheads. The proper response is for parents and all other legal guardians (such as officals and private citizens acting in prentis locus) to take note that this shit happens and to do due dilligence prior to signing over effective custody to brainwashed lunatics. It's not that hard. Just go through Sagewalk's staff pages and google some of the names listed there. They have a history. You know it. We know it. Sagewalk knows it. Aspen knows it. STICC knows it (prolly some of them among the partners).

Sorry, I just don’t buy into the whole brainwashed theory.  I am sure it was all the rage in the 1980’s with EST and all but Sergey didn’t die because of Brainwashing.  The EMTs (trained) on the hike were right on this guy and they missed something.  Maybe they thought he was faking it…. Why?  Maybe they saw it before or called 911 in the past and got their asses reamed because they spent $3,000 on emergency personnel on some  kid who was faking, who knows.  So this time they waited and called home base first.

I don’t believe these people running the places are irrational.  There is a ton of money to be lost when a child dies and the place gets shut down.  Even if they hate kids they don’t want this to happen, its their bread and butter.  There are many people involved deciding how these places operate, not one crazy at the helm.

Yes! Make them entirely voluntary and quit pretending it's medicine on the order of heart surgery or cancer treatment.

Any truley therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. Pick one and run with it (and scisors, if you like). return undef() if /coercion/sig;

I don’t believe many teens would go if it were voluntary.  Try to get your average teen to clean their room let alone approach you for therapy.
I have seen first hand that these kids meet up with therapists that they trust.  It just takes time.. thats why they wrote “Least restrictive....”… not  “Non restrictive”.  Some of our best swimmers were dropped in the water against their will.

I have seen the results of these wilderness programs and they are very effective.  



...

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[DannyB II]

Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

New postby Antigen » Yesterday, 22:43

    Whooter wrote:What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward? Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.


Antigen wrote:
Well, for starters, you could quit supporting lunatic notions like "trust the process" and "these kids are all untrustworthy, manipulative liars" and "ya have to break a few eggs to make an omlett".

Look, Sergey died because he was placed in the care of people who sincerely believe that the proper response to a kid showing clear signs of accute dehydration is to assume he's faking for attention and hava a picnic under the nearest shade tree rather than to feel his arm pit to see if he's stopped sweating. And the proper response to that same kid not breathing is to call the program staff, not 911.

The root cause is that the people running these programs are dangerously irrational. The proper response to that is not to appoint another committee of equally dangerously irrational bureaucrats to slap safety warning labels on their foreheads. The proper response is for parents and all other legal guardians (such as officals and private citizens acting in prentis locus) to take note that this shit happens and to do due dilligence prior to signing over effective custody to brainwashed lunatics. It's not that hard. Just go through Sagewalk's staff pages and google some of the names listed there. They have a history. You know it. We know it. Sagewalk knows it. Aspen knows it. STICC knows it (prolly some of them among the partners).

Whooter wrote:
There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.

Antigen wrote:
Yes! Make them entirely voluntary and quit pretending it's medicine on the order of heart surgery or cancer treatment.

Whooter wrote:
Any truley therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. Pick one and run with it (and scisors, if you like). return undef() if /coercion/sig;

***************************************************************************************************************************

Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

New postby Antigen » Yesterday, 23:00

Joel wrote:  Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that *allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.


Antigen wrote:
Joel, man, I think it runs deeper than that. You say "practices that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students..." Think about that. Like there are a lot of folks out there who would sit down and have a picnic and watch a kid die for an hour or two if only it weren't for those bothersome authorities who disallow it. I think Ursus is more on point when he describes "the same "therapeutic milieu" responsible for molding kids' minds is also responsible for skewing the innate instincts and common sense of the staff, not to mention interfere or run counter to the appropriate training they may or may not have received."

Know what would help a LOT? If Oprah and Dr. Phool would see the light like Montel did and do a segment or 50 investigating the industry instead of promoting it.

****************************************************************************************************************************
DannyBII wrote:
I don't think the staff are trained at all really and when the final report comes out this I believe will be evident. Going back to Deputy Pore investigation, the warrant to search and confiscate files, this information has not been revealed yet and I am sure part of what their looking for is training and education obviously.  
I have heard from Che and Joel and from what you both are saying you were trained and could have adequately dealt with this problem, obviously these staff employees could not. I don't believe the problem lies with the staff/leaders on this hike anyways, it is their supervisors that scare me with their recklessness and blatant disregard for analysis of new intakes. I wonder how many of the deaths on these wilderness hikes happen to children that had been there approximately a week or so.
Why are children allowed to go on hikes within 24 hrs of getting there.
Joel you said that they Sagewalk is not equipped to deal with drug addicts, well in the Deputy report it is clearly said that he did have a drug problem. I would surely like to know why you are saying that they don't deal with clientele that have drug issues. I have never heard that, not to say I am a expert either yet it just doesn't make any sense.
Danny

[DannyB II]

Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

New postby Antigen » Yesterday, 22:43

    Whooter wrote:What could they have done differently which would have saved Sergey and save other children going forward? Root cause needs to be identified and corrective action put into place so that deaths like Sergeys do not happen again.


Antigen wrote:
Well, for starters, you could quit supporting lunatic notions like "trust the process" and "these kids are all untrustworthy, manipulative liars" and "ya have to break a few eggs to make an omlett".

Look, Sergey died because he was placed in the care of people who sincerely believe that the proper response to a kid showing clear signs of accute dehydration is to assume he's faking for attention and hava a picnic under the nearest shade tree rather than to feel his arm pit to see if he's stopped sweating. And the proper response to that same kid not breathing is to call the program staff, not 911.

The root cause is that the people running these programs are dangerously irrational. The proper response to that is not to appoint another committee of equally dangerously irrational bureaucrats to slap safety warning labels on their foreheads. The proper response is for parents and all other legal guardians (such as officals and private citizens acting in prentis locus) to take note that this shit happens and to do due dilligence prior to signing over effective custody to brainwashed lunatics. It's not that hard. Just go through Sagewalk's staff pages and google some of the names listed there. They have a history. You know it. We know it. Sagewalk knows it. Aspen knows it. STICC knows it (prolly some of them among the partners).

Whooter wrote:
There must be a solution which allows these wilderness programs to operate and be successful and at the same time keep the children safe from a fate like Sergeys.

Antigen wrote:
Yes! Make them entirely voluntary and quit pretending it's medicine on the order of heart surgery or cancer treatment.

Whooter wrote:
Any truley therapeutic relationship must be based on trust. Coercion destroys trust. Pick one and run with it (and scisors, if you like). return undef() if /coercion/sig;

***************************************************************************************************************************

Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk

New postby Antigen » Yesterday, 23:00

Joel wrote:  Deputy Pore contends that SageWalk and the Aspen Education Group approved or knowingly tolerated practices at the camp that *allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students, and that resulted in the death of Sergey Blashchishen.


Antigen wrote:
Joel, man, I think it runs deeper than that. You say "practices that allowed employees to ignore the physical complaints of students..." Think about that. Like there are a lot of folks out there who would sit down and have a picnic and watch a kid die for an hour or two if only it weren't for those bothersome authorities who disallow it. I think Ursus is more on point when he describes "the same "therapeutic milieu" responsible for molding kids' minds is also responsible for skewing the innate instincts and common sense of the staff, not to mention interfere or run counter to the appropriate training they may or may not have received."

Know what would help a LOT? If Oprah and Dr. Phool would see the light like Montel did and do a segment or 50 investigating the industry instead of promoting it.

****************************************************************************************************************************
DannyBII wrote:
I don't think the staff are trained at all really and when the final report comes out this I believe will be evident. Going back to Deputy Pore investigation, the warrant to search and confiscate files, this information has not been revealed yet and I am sure part of what their looking for is training and education obviously.  
I have heard from Che and Joel and from what you both are saying you were trained and could have adequately dealt with this problem, obviously these staff employees could not. I don't believe the problem lies with the staff/leaders on this hike anyways, it is their supervisors that scare me with their recklessness and blatant disregard for analysis of new intakes. I wonder how many of the deaths on these wilderness hikes happen to children that had been there approximately a week or so.
Why are children allowed to go on hikes within 24 hrs of getting there.
Joel you said that they Sagewalk is not equipped to deal with drug addicts, well in the Deputy report it is clearly said that he did have a drug problem. I would surely like to know why you are saying that they don't deal with clientele that have drug issues. I have never heard that, not to say I am a expert either yet it just doesn't make any sense.
Danny

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

DannyBII wrote: If you read this paragraph below you will see Joel, they do deal with drug and alcohol issues. The Wilderness Programs. Now I am not saying effectively but they advertise they address it.

http://www.aspeneducation.com/Outdoor-edu.html
  CALL: (888) 972-7736
Wilderness therapy programs sometimes referred to as Outdoor Education, have proven themselves to be exceptional catalysts for change in troubled children and teenagers. Because of our reputation for quality, safety and longevity, many of Aspen's wilderness programs have been highlighted in TV documentaries and written about in the national media. This unique experience can be described as a "rite of passage," a transformational process that is difficult to find in our fast-paced, modern society. Our therapists and counselors guide teens toward self-reliance and self-respect. The impact of these programs on troubled teens with such behavioral problems as low self-esteem, poor school performance, defiance of authority, depression, and drug or alcohol abuse has been well documented. Parents can feel confident that their children will get the treatment and care they need at Aspen's Outdoor Therapy Wilderness Programs. For international inquiries, click here.