Author Topic: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk  (Read 26952 times)

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Offline Whooter

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2010, 08:31:49 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"

Whooter this goes to show you have no knowledge through first hand work experience how medical emergencies should be handled.  It doesn't matter where you are, a child should always, without question, should be evacuated immediately.  If I pulled a stunt like this at EYA, I would have been in a world of hurt.  Yes, failure to take immediate actions to get a child to a hospital constitutes negligence Whooter.  Seriously Whooter, this goes beyond a training issue.  Do I really need to spell it out for you?

Yes, it would be helpful to spell it out.  You are right that I don’t have the training.  But I find it hard to believe that they would have to evacuate a person with a potentially sprained or twisted ankle.  Bringing a person out of the field the next day should be perfectly acceptable.
Are there any procedures or documentation available which would determine if the child should be brought out of the field immediately?  What is this decision based on?
You initially mentioned commonsense would dictate.... but I have to disagree with you on this one, Joel.



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Joel

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« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2010, 08:48:28 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:41:59 AM by Joel »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2010, 09:03:15 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
I stated earlier I had a broken ankle and surgery that required two plates n' seven screws. Do ya think that is sufficient enough reason to immediately evacuate someone to a hospital? My decision was based on a conclusion by a WFR with allot of experience. The X-Rays confirmed his findings.

All that information was not known while you were in the field, Joel.  For all they knew you had a twisted ankle.  They made the decision based on the information that they had and the experience and knowledge they possessed.


Quote
Bringing someone out of the field the next day, in this case, is never acceptable. Ya ever consider the risk of further bodily injury increases in cases like mine? Seriously Whooter, nobody on fornits should have to have this conversation with you.

I haven’t seen any evidence or documentation which would preclude removing you from the field as an emergency.

Again, are there any procedures which would dictate that a person needs to be evacuated immediately if they had signs of a swollen ankle or twisted ankle?   When I was in boy scouts we would have toughed it out for a few days.  I am not saying that is right and it is decades ago, but waiting a few hours till morning to see if the swelling goes down doesn’t constitute neglect in anyone’s handbook that I am aware of, Joel.



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Joel

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« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2010, 09:06:48 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 08:42:47 AM by Joel »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2010, 09:38:06 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
I stated earlier I had a broken ankle and surgery that required two plates n' seven screws. Do ya think that is sufficient enough reason to immediately evacuate someone to a hospital? My beliefs were based on a conclusion by a WFR with allot of experience, who said my ankle was broken. The X-Rays confirmed his findings. Bringing someone out of the field the next day, in this case, is never acceptable. Ya ever consider the risk of further bodily injury increases in cases like mine? Seriously Whooter, nobody on fornits should have to have this conversation with you.

Do ya want me to take pictures of my left ankle to confirm the sugery?  I could download them on photobucket then post them on fornits.  Do ya want people to confirm my story whooter?  Go ask half of peergroup 42 at RMA they'll tell ya all about it.

 Sorry you need to get upset over this conversation.  Maybe they should have med-i-flighted you out via helicopter, who knows you never produced any procedures which would dictate proper steps to be taken, maybe they didnt have any.  What if they cut you open and found you had cancer or diabetes.  Would you blame the field team for that too?  
I believe you had a broken ankle, that is not the issue.  The issue is if the field staff used proper steps in keeping you safe and getting you the medical help you needed within a reasonable time frame.  It seems to me they used good judgment, stabilized you and settled you in for the night.  The swelling didnt go down by morning so they evacuated you from the field and got you proper medical attention. Your life was never in danger that we know of.   Neither one of us has documentation to support our points of view so it is only our opinions at this point.

If you really feel the program should have done more then I accept your feelings on this.



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Joel

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« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2010, 09:45:06 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #66 on: March 31, 2010, 10:16:47 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"

I got diabetes two - three years ago Whooter, nice try with another irrelevant analogy.  Ya got anymore foolish one liners you're going to throw my way Whooter?


You missed the point.  The staff made the call based on the information they had at the time and felt they should stabilize you though the night and check the swelling in the morning.  Doesnt really matter what they found once they got you to the hospital... i.e. cancer, diabetes etc.....  the decision was made based in information present to them in the field.

Our youngest had testing done which reveled early-onset diabetes.  We got her to the hospital and luckily the test was a false positive and she is okay.  Hope they caught yours early enough.



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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #67 on: March 31, 2010, 11:54:31 PM »
So staff has the training to make that sort of diagnosis in the field? The very first time I took a life saving course I remember being told to call 911 or get to the hospital. Nothing about waiting till the next day.

What sort of training gives staff the ability to make such a diagnosis? Not WFR, WEMT, or BLS... I know.. I have my own EMT cert from years gone by.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2010, 09:55:11 AM »
Something else to consider:  
I think one of the challenges that the staff have are the behavior issues of the children.  If this were an outward bound group or a group of kids who wanted to be there then I think it would be easier to detect a problem because the kids would be more likely than not to want to continue on with the hike and reach their destination.  If a child said they were hurting there would be no initial reason not to take them seriously.

But many of the kids in wilderness programs do not want to be there in the first place so many of them are not bought into the whole hiking thing and may want to slow down, come up with excuses to take more breaks or even disrupt the hike by faking an injury.  The staff needs to work through this somehow and decipher which child is just dragging their feet and which child is truly suffering and needs a break.

I am not sure if there is special training for this or not, but I think we can all see this is unique to wilderness programs and posses special obstacles.



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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2010, 10:10:40 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
For the record you have avoided my question twice to show me a post where I have defended the program against this boys death.  I will take that as we agree that I am not defending the programs point of view in this thread.

Of course you will.  Doesn't mean it's the truth, but you'll see what you want, not reality.  You're a program apologist.  No matter the issue, you're right here to explain why it isn't any fault of the program's and is the fault of the kids.  I don't have time to list every single time you've done it because you do it with such regularity.  Anyone who even takes a cursory glance at your posts sees that.

But again, whatever helps you sleep at night.


Quote
Again you take the narrow view.  Step back a little and listen to what you are saying.  You need to remember that there is no way in hell you could understand what it is like to be a program parent.  Yet many of you pretend to know how we think and what lead to the placements.  Whats is like to have a child in a program?  You don’t have a clue.  So you see there is a larger picture than just knowing how you feel or what its like to be in a program.

My concern isn't for the parents.  They're not in any danger.  The kids are.  I don't have experience with having a child in a program because I did my fucking job of actually being a parent instead of outsourcing the job to strangers.  I'm well aware of how scary adolescence can be, from the POV of a parent.  I've been thru the sleepless nights, the worry and fear and somehow managed to raise decent kids (with their own issues and problems) without benefit of a goddamned program.


Quote
Read it Anne.  Try to understand what I am saying.  Its not an analogy.  
If you are in a closed system and only look at the kids that die in programs how can you decide if the problem is unique to just programs or if children die at the same rate in other situations like public school or football camp etc.  There is no way you can determine if a 1, 5, 10 deaths a year is a problem or out of the ordinary. How can you unless you have a benchmark to work from or to compare?

I've read it so please stop insisting that I haven't.  When there appears to be a common denominator in the deaths or injuries (restraints or being hiked to death), one can infer that there is a problem.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
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The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2010, 10:22:27 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
but I think we can all see this is unique to wilderness programs and posses special obstacles.

No, "we" (another way of you spinning things....speak for your fucking self) don't see that at all.  This happened in Straight (and many other like programs) all the time.  Kids were exercised to the point of passing out, vomiting, heat stroke.  We were prodded and provoked and restrained for little or no reason and there were some DAMN serious injuries, i.e. broken bones, cessation of breathing.  We were denied food, water, sleep and basic human contact until we complied, which is what it's all about.  Forcing those damn druggie/defiant kids behave and conform!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #71 on: April 01, 2010, 10:29:27 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
For the record you have avoided my question twice to show me a post where I have defended the program against this boys death.  I will take that as we agree that I am not defending the programs point of view in this thread.

  I don't have time to list every single time you've done it because you do it with such regularity.  Anyone who even takes a cursory glance at your posts sees that.

Thank you for proving my point..........  you couldn't even find one.



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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2010, 10:31:47 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
For the record you have avoided my question twice to show me a post where I have defended the program against this boys death.  I will take that as we agree that I am not defending the programs point of view in this thread.

  I don't have time to list every single time you've done it because you do it with such regularity.  Anyone who even takes a cursory glance at your posts sees that.

Thank you for proving my point..........  you couldn't even find one.



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Oh fuck off.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Ursus

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Homicide charges possible in SageWalk student death
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2010, 11:16:43 AM »
Here is a news piece containing both the press release from the Lake County Sheriff's office (the OP), as well as a statement released by Aspen Ed in response to those findings:

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KTVZ.com
Homicide charges possible in SageWalk student death
Posted: March 30, 2010 04:23 PM

From KTVZ.COM news sources



Officials with the parent company of Redmond's SageWalk Wilderness School could soon be facing homicide charges, for the death of a Portland teen on a class hiking trip last August.

That is, if the Lake County district attorney goes along with the recommendation of the chief investigator in the case.

Below is the full press release from the Lake County Sheriff's office:

    "The Lake County Sheriff's Office has concluded its primary investigation into the death of Sergey Blashchishen in northern Lake County on August 28th, 2009. Sergey was attending SageWalk The Wilderness School when he died while participating in his first program hike.

    Findings, investigative opinions, and recommendations have been prepared in a criminal investigations report. This report will now shortly be submitted to the Lake County District Attorney. Any recommendations of the report, including any recommendations for prosecution, are not binding on the District Attorney. Due to the size and complexity of the investigation and the report itself, it is not expected that any District Attorney opinion or charging decision will be forthcoming for a period of time.

    Although the Department of Human Services Office of Investigations and Training conducted much of their investigation in cooperation with the Lake County Sheriff's Office, the separate investigations have separate responsibilities. The report of the State Medical Examiner has not been released. It is not expected that the findings of either DHS or the ME will be in conflict with the Sheriff's Office conclusions, but that when released, their findings will be based upon the mission and parameters of the respective agency. Additional support was provided during this investigation by the Oregon State Police, the Deschutes County Sheriff's Office, and the United States Bureau of Land Management. The Lake County Sheriff's Office is grateful to all persons, named and unnamed, who have contributed their assistance during this investigation.    

    Deputy Sheriff Chuck Poré has been the primary case investigator for the Lake County Sheriff's Office and is the report author. This investigation has included interviews of persons who were on the hike with Sergey Blashchishen and witnessed the incident and his death; interview of persons not on the hike but familiar with the program practices and procedures; and review of hundreds of documents from the Aspen Education Group and SageWalk The Wilderness School program. The investigation of the Lake County Sheriff's Office has made a recommendation that the manner of Sergey Blashchishen's death be identified as a homicide.

    The prosecution of criminal charges have been recommended for the corporations responsible for the program which resulted in Sergey's death. At the time of his death, Sergey was on a program hike administered by several corporate employees known as field instructors. Although most were medically trained, investigation identified issues which may have brought medical practices into conflict with program practices, and this conflict having a significant impact on Sergey Blashchishen's death.

    No recommendation has been made in the cases of the individual field instructors but a District Attorney review has been requested.  
     
    The media patience extended during the course of this investigation has been admirable. It is asked that you continue the same courtesy to the Office of the District Attorney as the District Attorney begins this next part of the investigation."

Aspen Education Group statement:

Representatives from SageWalk's parent company, Aspen Education Group, released the following statement to NewsChannel 21 Tuesday afternoon, in response to the Sheriff's Office's findings.

Following is a statement from Mark Dorenfeld, Senior Vice President, Western Division of Aspen Education Group.

    March 30, 2010

    "SageWalk Wilderness School strongly disagrees with the conclusions of the Sheriff's Office, particularly in the absence of a full report by the State Medical Examiner. We continue to be greatly saddened by this tragic accident and again wish to extend our deepest sympathies to the family and friends of this young man.

    Although we do not intend to publicly discuss the specifics of the incident during the ongoing investigation, we can provide assurances that the student was well cared for, appropriately fed, and provided multiple water and rest breaks during the two-hour hike. In addition, he was accompanied on the hike by two Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) trained staff, one of whom never left his side. We are confident that we took every step possible to ensure the safety of this student, as we have done for every student over the course of our 12 year history.

    Throughout this investigation, we have cooperated with the investigators and have shared all relevant information with them. We continue to await the results of the State Medical Examiner's report. We expect that, once all the facts are known, they will demonstrate that we acted carefully and responsibly, and we will be fully vindicated."[/list]


    All content © Copyright 2000 - 2010 WorldNow and KTVZ. All Rights Reserved.
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    Offline Whooter

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    Re: Sheriff recommends death be identified a homicide - Sagewalk
    « Reply #74 on: April 01, 2010, 11:52:47 AM »
    Quote
    Although we do not intend to publicly discuss the specifics of the incident during the ongoing investigation, we can provide assurances that the student was well cared for, appropriately fed, and provided multiple water and rest breaks during the two-hour hike. In addition, he was accompanied on the hike by two Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) trained staff, one of whom never left his side. We are confident that we took every step possible to ensure the safety of this student, as we have done for every student over the course of our 12 year history.

    It will be very interesting to see the final report on this.  I didn't realize that there were 2 EMT's on the hike with them.



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