Do you think programs help troubled teens?

[Whooter]

Maybe he got confused and meant heart attacks?

Some argue that around 70% of teens who try to commit suicide do it by heart attack.


Another interesting fact is that the main cause of fatalities in this country is death.

Castle, When reading analogies you need to try to understand the point which is trying to be made.  If it isn’t clear than a good approach is to ask for clarification.

If I said “I trust Mike like I would Abe Lincoln”  It doesn’t mean that Mike wears a stove top hat or Mike believes that slaves should be free or even that Mike has a beard.  It refers to the connection that Abe Lincoln was honest and he feels Mike is too.  There are many connections to lincoln and it can be a challenge sometimes to figure out which characteristic is being selected for referenced.

Curious George wasn’t saying that having a heart attack is the same as going to a program he was referring to the urgency (or time element) of the event (it is time sensitive).  There is very little time for a parent to come up to speed from knowing nothing about programs to getting to the point where most of us are here on fornits as far as knowledge goes.  So expecting parents to spend a year researching programs while their son or daughter get worse is like discussing treatment options while a person lies on the floor with a heart attack.

The analogy works and conveys the message of urgency.

[try another castle]

Maybe he got confused and meant heart attacks?

Some argue that around 70% of teens who try to commit suicide do it by heart attack.


Another interesting fact is that the main cause of fatalities in this country is death.

Castle, When reading analogies you need to try to understand the point which is trying to be made.  If it isn’t clear than a good approach is to ask for clarification.

If I said “I trust Mike like I would Abe Lincoln”  It doesn’t mean that Mike wears a stove top hat or Mike believes that slaves should be free or even that Mike has a beard.  It refers to the connection that Abe Lincoln was honest and he feels Mike is too.  There are many connections to lincoln and it can be a challenge sometimes to figure out which characteristic is being selected for referenced.

Curious George wasn’t saying that having a heart attack is the same as going to a program he was referring to the urgency (or time element) of the event (it is time sensitive).  There is very little time for a parent to come up to speed from knowing nothing about programs to getting to the point where most of us are here on fornits as far as knowledge goes.  So expecting parents to spend a year researching programs while their son or daughter get worse is like discussing treatment options while a person lies on the floor with a heart attack.

The analogy works and conveys the message of urgency.

You know what your problem is? You have no sense of humor.


Well, that and your concept of analogy is as flawed as your double's.

Also, there's your general fucktardedness regarding conflating analogy with hyperbole. The only thing they happen to have in common in this case is that they are both totally devoid of any meaning whatsoever.


But that's about it. If I come up with anything else, I'll be sure to let you know.

[AuntieEm2]

My point was that we haven't seen any evidence which connects suicides to programs

Duh. Corporations will not allow access to records to audit for program effectiveness or to study correlation to resulting suicide, post traumatic stress disorder, depression, etc.

And don't give me the crap about HIPAA regulations. Just don't. Reputable studies are done all the time in which identifying personal data is stripped out. And no reputable institutions have done proper research with a research group and a control group to compare outcomes. Why? Because corporate programs will not participate. They only participate in studies they commission with students they select. Wildly biased data. They produce marketing data, not mental health outcomes data.

And vulnerable parents swallow it hook, line and sinker.

Auntie Em

[Whooter]

You know what your problem is? You have no sense of humor.


Well, that and your concept of analogy is as flawed as your double's.

Also, there's your general fucktardedness regarding conflating analogy with hyperbole. The only thing they happen to have in common in this case is that they are both totally devoid of any meaning whatsoever.


But that's about it. If I come up with anything else, I'll be sure to let you know.

You may be right that I missed the humor in one of your previous posts.  But it did appear that you didnt understand the anology, at least that is how I read it.  I am glad you see CG's point.  I sometimes think that parents are given a really raw deal on fornits.

[try another castle]

I am glad you see CG's point. I sometimes think that parents are given a really raw deal on fornits.

What the fuck? Your reading comprehension is as shitty as your understanding of analogy.

I understood the analogy perfectly. However, you and curious george have no fucking clue.


Pay attention class: Urgency for heart attack: NOT equal to: urgency for pain in ass teenager... UNLESS teenager = 5150. If 5150 TRUE, THEN go hospital, ELSE stop panicking your fussy ass off and put some time into what to do with your fucking kid.


Plainspeak. It's not as fucking urgent as a heart attack, and warrants time when deciding what to do, whereas a heart attack does not.


I fail for even taking the time to spell this out, but not as much as the bobsey twins over here for thinking this was even a valid analogy. To think that  using a piss poor exaggeration like that would excuse them from not doing enough research.

Pathetic.


I have a better idea... why don't we stop analogizing what it's like to be a parent of a teenager altogether? Especially when the future of said teenager is in question. How about addressing it directly instead of conflating it with something that bears absolutely no resemblance to this situation?

[Whooter]

My point was that we haven't seen any evidence which connects suicides to programs

Duh. Corporations will not allow access to records to audit for program effectiveness or to study correlation to resulting suicide, post traumatic stress disorder, depression, etc.

I think we agree here, AuntieEm, I would like to see the studies which show the correlation to success also, but the studies just are not being done.  So just like we dont have the data to show the "success rates" on many of these places we also dont have any correlation to suicide, depression so how can we tie the suicides back to a specific event like the program or family issue or girlfriend break up, family medical history etc.
But to just chose one haphazardly is reckless.

[Whooter]

YA what she said! :notworthy:

so what I am reading is in the absence of data or facts you just make it up?

[Anonymous]

Programs saved my life.  I was a violent troubled teen and staff provided me with tools to be successful.

[Anonymous]

Programs saved my life.  I was a violent troubled teen and staff provided me with tools to be successful.

Can you be specific about what tools you were given and how they helped?  I mean really specific?

[Ursus]

Most of these programs, whether they actually spell it out or not, use group peer pressure as a means of control, as well as a means of projecting "the program" down kids' throats.

Group peer pressure -- in such an environment, where there is no escaping it -- is actually a form of program-sanctioned bullying, regardless of whether you call it "positive peer culture," a "supportive therapeutic milieu," "brother's keeper," or what have you. The basic gist of it all boils down to the kid having no choice over whether or not to participate (if s/he wants to progress in the program and get the hell out of there), and the group-think being enforced by more or less the entire environment of peers.

Bullying does have a statistical correlation with increased risk of suicide.

[Anonymous]

I was raped, fucked in the ass and made to suck cock in a program.

[Whooter]

How about addressing it directly instead of conflating it with something that bears absolutely no resemblance to this situation?

I think the connection you miss is that an analogy isn’t a direct or 1 to 1 comparison.  The need to respond to a heart attack is measured in minutes as is a 5150.  So you are right that they both need  the same attention in the same time frame and therefore a direct comparison.  To express this comparison you would not need an analogy because the reaction time is the same and the time frame is the same.

An analogy compares two things which are not alike but have something in common (in this case they are both time sensitive or need to be reacted upon).  But other than that they are different.  Although the time frame is different when a parent has a child in crisis they have a few days or weeks to react (heart attack a few seconds or minutes to react).  The parents do not have the luxury of 6 months to a year to determine the best course for their son or daughter.

This was the point CG was making.

[Anonymous]

So, CG, you really think it would take 6 months to a year (the length of many program stays) to do the homework necessary to make a decsion about whether or not to send your kid there?

How long did it take you to "corner" CALO? and make them "crumble"?  How long did it take you to get them to admit their model is new and unproven?  You complained that they did not do anything to demonstrate that their model works and refuse to provide proof that the model works...your words.  How long did it take you to ferret out that info?   6 months?  A year?  I doubt it.  Things move fast when you are truly motivated.  Ok, I'll help you out here.  You can do it in a phone call or two.

1. What exactly is your model?
2. What are your methods?
3. How do they work?
4. What is your proof?
5. Can I see a demonstration?
6. How long have you been using this model and these methods?

Also, since insufficient punishment seems to be a sticking point with you, "How and when do you punish the kids?  You get the point.  

Simple questions, a phone call or two and I just saved you 6 months to a year.

[try another castle]

How about addressing it directly instead of conflating it with something that bears absolutely no resemblance to this situation?

I think the connection you miss is that an analogy isn’t a direct or 1 to 1 comparison.  The need to respond to a heart attack is measured in minutes as is a 5150.  So you are right that they both need  the same attention in the same time frame and therefore a direct comparison.  To express this comparison you would not need an analogy because the reaction time is the same and the time frame is the same.

An analogy compares two things which are not alike but have something in common (in this case they are both time sensitive or need to be reacted upon).  But other than that they are different.  Although the time frame is different when a parent has a child in crisis they have a few days or weeks to react (heart attack a few seconds or minutes to react).  The parents do not have the luxury of 6 months to a year to determine the best course for their son or daughter.

This was the point CG was making.

Allow me to be more concise.

The two scenarios have nothing in common. Not.. one.. thing. Therefore, bad analogy.

[Anonymous]

For CG:  what questions did you ask before you sent your kid to CALO?
What answers did you get and what about those answers made you feel it was a good idea to go through with it.