Do you think programs help troubled teens?

[Curious George]

I think all those with some brain power realize that these programs do not help kids.  

For you kids out there, if your parents sent you to the programs for simple offensives, truancy, and one time events, then they deserve what you say about them, and you deserve to be angry.  I just can't imagine that a parent would do this.  That is why I have a hard time believing what you say.

In many cases there is a real risk of someone getting hurt or killed.  If you were out there committing crimes, actual crimes, or stringing some other poor kid out on drugs, then you are there because you got yourself there.  Your parents probably turned to a program as a last final resort because they knew where you were headed, jail.  So think what you want, but if you think a program is worse than jail, then get sent there and report back to us in 10 years.  

CALO will claim they have helped, but when cornered, Iike I have cornered them, they quickly crumble.  They don't provide anything to demonstrate that their model actually works.  They refuse to demonstrate to the parents proof their model works, they have even admitted their model is new and unproven, they will never disclose financial information regarding their program, and they don't have to unless a judge orders or the IRS audits.  Still, it may not be made public information.  But so what, we all know why it's so expensive and we know parents will pay anything to help a child if they really love them.  Whether you think it's right or wrong.  CALO knows we know too, but they can tell us to go pound sand until we make them disclose it.

You all moan about the loopholes and cite your constitutional rights and arguments etc etc, but the fact is that most states consider you the parents property (for the lack of a better term) unless you commit adult crimes.  This is shitty for you, but actual real life for the rest of us who have paid our dues.  Maybe you should consider doing something about this, the law is the law, if you have problems with it, then change it, close the loopholes you detest so much.  Decide for yourself if you are a person that's going to sit on the sidelines or a person that will take action.  Be careful though, make sure you take action that is legal or else you'll have more consequences to gripe about.  There is a process in this country for you to take, so do it, make it happen and running away isn't the answer.

If you are criminals and have done criminal things, you belong there, or possibly even jail.   if you have not, then I don't think you belong there, it's simple.  What isn't simple is how other parents feel about this and what their position is or what their morality is.  Until you are 18, your parents direction counts for something.  But don't expect society to put up with further criminal behavior if that is where you are headed.

Get up and take action if you are as smart, intelligent, dedicated and motivated as you say you are.  If you are serious, adults will take you seriously.  If your acting like a spoiled brat, adults will treat you as such.

CG

[Anonymous]

For you kids out there, if your parents sent you to the programs for simple offensives, truancy, and one time events, then they deserve what you say about them, and you deserve to be angry. I just can't imagine that a parent would do this. That is why I have a hard time believing what you say.

 

Did you send your kid to a program?

[Anonymous]

CALO will claim they have helped, but when cornered, Iike I have cornered them, they quickly crumble. They don't provide anything to demonstrate that their model actually works. They refuse to demonstrate to the parents proof their model works, they have even admitted their model is new and unproven, they will never disclose financial information regarding their program, and they don't have to unless a judge orders or the IRS audits. Still, it may not be made public information. But so what, we all know why it's so expensive and we know parents will pay anything to help a child if they really love them. Whether you think it's right or wrong. CALO knows we know too, but they can tell us to go pound sand until we make them disclose it.

Good point but don't you think this is the kind of footwork a parent do should BEFORE they ship their kid off?  If parents would do their homework,  a lot of these places would not be ("non" :rofl: ) profitable enough to open or keep open.  Problem is they, like you, ship 'em out first, ask questions later.

[psy]

If your 'child' (I put the word child in quotes because chances are he's a biological adult and no I don't give a fuck what the government says on the subject so don't try that "he's not 18" bullshit here) he should be tried, sentenced, and if found guilty, sent to a traditional correctional facility.  Instead, you jumped the gun, denied him his right to a fair trail, (6th amendment) and subjected him to much more brutal treatment than any correctional facility, including adult prisons. (8th and 14th)  Instead of doing things right, you assume that you're special and the rules don't apply to you.  Of course, if you weren't an abject failure as a parent, as well as a probable mental defective, maybe you wouldn't have these problems.

Ask any kid you know if they would rather be in a correctional facility, prison or a program and every single one would choose a program hands down.

It's an easy way to get out of the just (due process, jury of peers) punishment.  Sure they would love it...  until they try the program and realize they often play for keeps fare more than any correctional institution does.  Some on Fornits have been to both and "hands down" they prefer the prison as the more "humane" solution.  I can't agree more with "RandomInternetPaultard" here.

Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. Their very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level with those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals. But to be punished, however severely, because we have deserved it, because we ‘ought to have known better’, is to be treated as a human person made in God’s image.  - C.S. Lewis

In prison they don't try to change your ideals without your knowledge and consent.  You're free to disagree with the system and express that disagreement.  You're free to hold yourself as innocent, without being forced to confess in order to leave.  You're provided with due process, free representation, a jury of peers.  You can communicate freely with the outside world.  You're free to choose your friends.  You can have personal property and a far greater degree of privacy than in a program where every word you utter or jot down is scrutinized.  These are the things that are truly important; the sanctity of self and of free thought, not superficial creature comforts.

Hell they can all go to prison if they just break the rules in the program, break into the offices at night and destroy stuff ec.  But they chose to stay and get an education and better themselves than go to prison.

And since when can't people educate themselves in prison?  Last I checked prisons had libraries, prisoners could own their own books (of their choice), etc.  What many programs (and by program i mean Synanon derived nonprofessional therapy cult) specialize in is re-education, indoctrination, and flat out thought reform.  Schooling takes a back-burner and is often held as a "privilege" to be earned by conforming not just in action, but in thought, to the arbitrary ideals of the program.

[try another castle]

no no no. you guys have it all wrong.

first you go to a program

THEN you go to jail.

It's kinda like graduating.


Don't worry, the program will prep you for it. That's what they're getting paid for.

[Curious George]

In an ideal situation and in an pefect world, doing your homework, gathering the data, getting testimonials, pros and cons etc etc, before sending a child to a program would be the best case scenario.  I can expect that this process could take in the range of 6 months to a year or longer.

However, it is never an ideal situation when you are challenged the most and when lives are at risk.  Most people that have lived life beyond the teen years know that your challenge will come when you are least prepared and at the worst time you can imagine.  That is why people should hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

If someone was dying of a heart attack, I wouldn't sit around and consult a medical book, call some friends and ask them what to do, wait for a couple of weeks to get testimonials, I'd just call an ambulance, give the poor soul some CPR and hope for the best.  But if it's their time, then no matter what we do, it's their time.  Some people don't want help and just can't be helped, but and here's what many don't understand.  Let's forget about the morality of the issue because we all know no one will agree on that, it is our LEGAL obligation to do so as well.  

Parents are thrown into impossible situations sometimes.  If you discipline your child, Ken will call you an abuser and the child needs to contact DCFS, your teachers at school will encourage this, and even make the report for you.  If you let your child run wild, neighbors call DCFS and your other children are pulled out of the house.  If the wild child does something illegal or commits an adult crime, the state can charge the parents as well as the kid for certain offences.  

But with that said, you're assuming all parents just send kids off to camp as a knee-jerk decision.  Some parents didn't really have a choice in the matter to begin with.  Choices have to be made and the squeaky wheel doesn't always get the oil.

I agree also that in jail you may have more freedoms than in a program, but you will be brainwashed there too.  Gangs will do it for you and you won't have a choice, you'll hook up or die.  You can even become a jailhouse attorney, but all your clients will be locked up with you.

In a program, you may only stay for a year or two.  In jail, you may stay for life, risk rape and/or death on a daily basis.  But hell, some people need to be told what to do 24/7, and actually forced to do it, way beyond what your programs do.   Jail will virtually guarantee you turn out to be a career criminal, then we are on the concealed carry argument again.

So choose well.  Remember at 18 you'll be free to choose whatever path you like.  But don't complain to us when a judge hands down a 30 year sentence.
A judge won't care about your teenage belief system, your arguments, brusing your inner-child or taking he punishment out of relationships.  Your parents will be devastated to see you go, but hell, what do we know, we are the reason you got there in the first place, right?

All Excuses.  Grow up, get an education and become something useful to future generations, If you can't do that, join the military and let them help you if you can't stay self-disciplined.

CG

[try another castle]

If someone was dying of a heart attack

ROFL.. that is the most asinine analogy Ive ever heard.

If you feel like the urgency of your teen's "situation" compares to the urgency of a heart attack, then they ALSO belong in a fucking hospital. At least for 72  hours observation. Certainly not shipped off to a program.

If they aren't 5150, then the heart-attack comparison doesn't even apply. Apples and oldsmobiles.


Stupid motherfucker.  :beat:

[Whooter]

If someone was dying of a heart attack

ROFL.. that is the most asinine analogy Ive ever heard.

If you feel like the urgency of your teen's "situation" compares to the urgency of a heart attack, then they ALSO belong in a fucking hospital. At least for 72  hours observation. Certainly not shipped off to a program.

If they aren't 5150, then the heart-attack comparison doesn't even apply. Apples and oldsmobiles.


Stupid motherfucker.  :beat:

You dont need to take it literally  Courious George isnt saying they are identical he is making a comparison between the two to help support a point he is trying to make.   As in a person having a heart attack people standing around are not going to discuss the best hospital or form of treatment, ... the same with a program.  Parents, although have more time, dont typically have 6 months to a year to become educated on the industry and find the perfect placement or even determine if the child needs to be placed.

[Anonymous]

Programs help troubled teens who have suicidal tendencies.

[Ursus]

Programs help troubled teens who have suicidal tendencies.

Programs create suicidal tendencies in teens, who may or may not be troubled.

It may also create suicidal tendencies in their parents, once they realize what their kids went through.

[Whooter]

1,500 teenagers commit suicide every year without ever seeing a program.

[Ursus]

1,500 teenagers commit suicide every year without ever seeing a program.

Are you simply stating a "fact," or are you attempting to actually say something?

[try another castle]

1,500 teenagers commit suicide every year without ever seeing a program.

Only if their levels are over 9000 and they are using only 2% of their power.

"Amma chargin mah lazer!"

[Whooter]

1,500 teenagers commit suicide every year without ever seeing a program.

Are you simply stating a fact, or are you attempting to actually say something?

Thanks Eliscu2 for the info:
My point was that we havent seen any evidence which connects suicides to programs or evidence which ties back these events to root cause in the absence of a note or communication of some type.

[try another castle]

1,500 teenagers commit suicide every year without ever seeing a program.

I have studied Teen Suicide statistics, infact all suicide statistics are formatted the same way.
Demographics are broken down by Age, Race, Gender, State and Method.
Infact....... go google suicide statistics and come back here with the real #'s
There is no data collected on whether they were brainwashed in a program or not.

example:
http://http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml
In 2006, suicide was the third leading cause of death for young people ages 15 to 24.1 Of every 100,000 young people in each age group, the following number died by suicide:1

Children ages 10 to 14 — 1.3 per 100,000
Adolescents ages 15 to 19 — 8.2 per 100,000
Young adults ages 20 to 24 — 12.5 per 100,000
As in the general population, young people were much more likely to use firearms, suffocation, and poisoning than other methods of suicide, overall. However, while adolescents and young adults were more likely to use firearms than suffocation, children were dramatically more likely to use suffocation.1

There were also gender differences in suicide among young people, as follows:
:smashcomp:
Over four times as many males as females ages 15 to 19 died by suicide.1
More than six times as many males as females ages 20 to 24 died by suicide.1

Maybe he got confused and meant heart attacks?

Some argue that around 70% of teens who try to commit suicide do it by heart attack.


Another interesting fact is that the main cause of fatalities in this country is death.