the dangers of equating AA and programs

[try another castle]

The point is, nothing is going to work if you don't want to quit. As such, the state or whomever, shouldn't be forcing people to quit. Drinking and using is a right, whether it's legal or not.

[Ursus]

A.A. does not have its own residential treatment centers, nor Hazeldon.

This is simply not true. Hazelden has several programs, and has been operating them for well over half a century. In fact, Hazelden credits itself with being the progenitor of all residential 12-Step programs.

Joe Gauld (founder of Hyde School) attended one of Hazelden's inpatient programs in 1975, when Halzelden was implementing their most Synanon-inspired methodology, that is, hot seats, group rap, and all... Hazelden had sent reps down to Eagleville Hospital in Pennsylvania to study the trade, Eagleville having had learned said methodology directly from Synanon itself. I personally think Joe had some prior exposure to that methodology, since I attended Hyde prior to that time, and he was already dishing it out then.

For nearly 60 years, Hazelden has been in the business of helping people recover from alcohol and other drug addictions. Hazelden's work in the 1950s and 1960s set the standard and defined the model for all Twelve-Step-based, interdisciplinary treatment programs in operation today. It was Hazelden staff who began teaching the Twelve Steps in a residential setting, and whose ground-breaking work in incorporating psychology and psychiatry, physical health and fitness, emotional and family systems therapies and other approaches, define the "interdisciplinary model" of care.
http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/whyhazelden.page

Hazelden's current programs (some have opened or closed or splintered off during the years; in particular, there was one notorious split in Florida):

• Center City, MN
• Center for Youth and Families, Plymouth, MN
• Newberg, OR
• New York City, NY
• Chicago, IL
• Fellowship Club - St. Paul, MN

Some of these are inpatient, some are out patient; there are also "retreats," etc. at their Renewal Center.

No A.A. does not A.A. does not own Hazeldon. A.A. is a not for profit organization. All of its holdings must be publicly disclosed. Hazeldon is not listed. Asses its assets and finacial information yourself

Ownership was never discussed in my post. Nor did I mention A.A. even once in my entire post.

I was responding to your statement that Hazelden does not own or operate residential treatment centers. Please reread the post more carefully.

Are you implying that A.A. secretly owns Hazeldon? That it is profiting off of Hazeldon? Do you realize that A.A. doesn’t earn any profits because it is a not-for profit org.? Do you understand what a not for profit org is?

Again, this was never discussed in my post, nor anyone else's in the past page or two. Your condescension is misplaced and inappropriate.

If you feel A.A. is profiting off of Hazelton, then inform the IRS. They tend to be fussy about that sort of tax fraud.

Who opened H., or what modalities it has or has not been influenced by is a separate issue.

The modalities that Hazelden operates was brought up by you and addressed by me, in fact, I addressed it more or less throughout the entirety of my post. Hence, it is not a separate issue, it was the only issue. Please read more carefully.

[Anonymous]

A.A. does not have its own residential treatment centers, nor Hazeldon.

This is simply not true. Hazelden has several programs, and has been operating them for well over half a century. In fact, Hazelden credits itself with being the progenitor of all residential 12-Step programs.

Joe Gauld (founder of Hyde School) attended one of Hazelden's inpatient programs in 1975, when Halzelden was implementing their most Synanon-inspired methodology, that is, hot seats, group rap, and all... Hazelden had sent reps down to Eagleville Hospital in Pennsylvania to study the trade, Eagleville having had learned said methodology directly from Synanon itself. I personally think Joe had some prior exposure to that methodology, since I attended Hyde prior to that time, and he was already dishing it out then.

For nearly 60 years, Hazelden has been in the business of helping people recover from alcohol and other drug addictions. Hazelden's work in the 1950s and 1960s set the standard and defined the model for all Twelve-Step-based, interdisciplinary treatment programs in operation today. It was Hazelden staff who began teaching the Twelve Steps in a residential setting, and whose ground-breaking work in incorporating psychology and psychiatry, physical health and fitness, emotional and family systems therapies and other approaches, define the "interdisciplinary model" of care.
http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/whyhazelden.page

Hazelden's current programs (some have opened or closed or splintered off during the years; in particular, there was one notorious split in Florida):

• Center City, MN
• Center for Youth and Families, Plymouth, MN
• Newberg, OR
• New York City, NY
• Chicago, IL
• Fellowship Club - St. Paul, MN

Some of these are inpatient, some are out patient; there are also "retreats," etc. at their Renewal Center.

No A.A. does not A.A. does not own Hazeldon. A.A. is a not for profit organization. All of its holdings must be publicly disclosed. Hazeldon is not listed. Asses its assets and finacial information yourself

Ownership was never discussed in my post. Nor did I mention A.A. even once in my entire post.

I was responding to your statement that Hazelden does not own or operate residential treatment centers. Please reread the post more carefully.

Are you implying that A.A. secretly owns Hazeldon? That it is profiting off of Hazeldon? Do you realize that A.A. doesn’t earn any profits because it is a not-for profit org.? Do you understand what a not for profit org is?

Again, this was never discussed in my post, nor anyone else's in the past page or two. Your condescension is misplaced and inappropriate.

If you feel A.A. is profiting off of Hazelton, then inform the IRS. They tend to be fussy about that sort of tax fraud.

Who opened H., or what modalities it has or has not been influenced by is a separate issue.

The modalities that Hazelden operates was brought up by you and addressed by me, in fact, I addressed it more or less throughout the entirety of my post. Hence, it is not a separate issue, it was the only issue. Please read more carefully.

Ok, you misread me. I said that A.A. doesn’t own or profit off of Hazeldon or residential treatment centers....

[Anonymous]

Source (which you have refused to read since you know the truth):
http://www.peele.net/lib/diseasing3.html

Ps:  I <3 you, Bill W.'s Conscience. Love your posting!

Back atchya babe!

It never ceases to amaze me when these people just flat refuse to even READ something that differs from their POV.  I can't imagine going through life like that.

[Anonymous]

Just to chime in here with reality for a moment: psy is misrepresenting Vaillant's findings. More specifcically, he is presenting other people's misrepresentations of his findings.

There's no misrepresentation.  He's directly quoting the study that Valliant did.  

Unfortunely, there are two websites, A.O and More Revealed that seem to be ivolved with competitor for-profit addiction services.

Please cite your source for Agent Orange making a dime off his site or any other.

More Revealed actually has a section run by Smart Recovery@ IMO, while there are valid critisms of A.A. in these sites, there is a lot of info that is just not true, or worse.

That's pretty much what we're saying.  That there are valid criticisms of AA.  Why is that so difficult for people to accept?  I'll ask again since no one's answered.  What are AAers so afraid of that they refuse to even entertain any criticism or opposing points of view?  Why all the anger and defensiveness?  Does this really not remind you even a bit of when people would criticize the programs?  Has AA removed ALL your critical (stinking) thinking skills?

[Anonymous]

Ok, you misread me. I said that A.A. doesn’t own or profit off of Hazeldon or residential treatment centers....

AA makes millions off of the sales of it's literature.  Don't be so naive.  AA is raking in the cash just as the rest of the corrupt 'treatment' industry is.

[Anonymous]

Ownership was never discussed in my post. Nor did I mention A.A. even once in my entire post.

I was responding to your statement that Hazelden does not own or operate residential treatment centers. Please reread the post more carefully.


Again, this was never discussed in my post, nor anyone else's in the past page or two. Your condescension is misplaced and inappropriate.



The modalities that Hazelden operates was brought up by you and addressed by me, in fact, I addressed it more or less throughout the entirety of my post. Hence, it is not a separate issue, it was the only issue. Please read more carefully.

This seems to be a problem for them.  They're reading things into posts that simply aren't there.  I get that it's hard to hear the truth about something you hold dear, but WOW.  Flat out willful ignorance and just making shit up is the only way they can deal with the conflict facts present, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Two years prior to AA I went to all the anti AA websites like silly Secret Agent Orange or Orange Papers.  I love the anti AA websites because they told me what I wanted to hear at the time.  I dreaded the idea of going to AA.  The thought of being brainwashed, controlled, or I was powerless made me sick.  Then, in 2003, I was drinking mouthwash to feel better but, I wasn't powerless not me. I woke up in my own vomit, getting kicked out of peoples homes because of fighting while drunk. Then in May of 03 I woke up and didn't know what day it was.  I was alone, the Alternative recovery centers like SOS, were too far away.  Rational Recover was now charging for help and the Orange Papers just filled the web with complaints of AA but had no solution nor offered help.  I was desperate, I didn't care, I was dieing inside and afraid to live.  There is a meeting just about every hour on the hour in California.  I walked into my first meeting and said I was an alcoholic.  I saw men and woman professionals, lawyers, doctors, salesmen, teacher, and mothers, looking clean, happy, and healthy.  I didn't care about the God thing I would worry about that later.  I wanted to look and feel like them.  I decided to put my prejudice  aside a try it for a year.  I have 3 and 1/2 years sober, I fought every step but, I did them.  I was afraid to mention the anti AA websites when I did, everyone laughed.  when I said I hate Bill W, they laughed and said cool.  I kept trying to share all the stuff I had learned from the anti AA folks.  No one pushed me away like they said they would, no one said I wasn't welcome, like they said they would.  My sponsor said think all you want but, take action. Donald Trump didn't think his way to success.  So, I did, I love my life,  I pay my bills, I go to baseball games, concerts in the park, movies, I speak in front of hundreds of people without fear.  I don't walk in fear, I have bought a new Jeep, received raises, I moved into the apartment of my dreams,  I am more independent because I am not lead by fear.  I have  more friends than I can imagine.  I used the steps to stop drinking, to lose weight, when I am nervous.  Listen there are bad people in any group. ban lawyers, doctors, priest who will molests, teachers who will sleep with students.  There are bad people in AA but the program that I have followed has given me purpose when I had none, friends that are genuine, I laugh so hard I pee my pants.  I help other woman by giving to them what was freely giving to me.  I have never been held against my will.  Ok I had to do the phone list once.  It sucked.  Not much of a cult if you ask me.  We are way to undisciplined to keep others against there will.  The Big book tells me that if one doesn’t want it then please try something else. If AA were a cult then why does the big book say not to bother with a person who is not interested.  Not a very good cult if you ask me.   If your sponsor is abusive then get a new sponsor.  Go to a new meeting. I  know I will look high and low to find what I want to hear rather than what I need to hear.  If AA doesn’t work then find something that does.  That is the truth I was given.   Try AA for a year if it doesn’t work then we will gladly refund your misery.  Good luck gang.

No one is really saying that a.a. is a cult at this point, i hope. Now people seem to be arguing over whether or not it works. I'm glad you received help. Are you a program survivor?

No.  our super honest AA defenders here just copied and pasted that post from this page:
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc. ... 9527&cn=14
See comment at :
Andrea Morgan - Apr 25th 2007

[Anonymous]

Two years prior to AA I went to all the anti AA websites like silly Secret Agent Orange or Orange Papers.  I love the anti AA websites because they told me what I wanted to hear at the time.  I dreaded the idea of going to AA.  The thought of being brainwashed, controlled, or I was powerless made me sick.  Then, in 2003, I was drinking mouthwash to feel better but, I wasn't powerless not me. I woke up in my own vomit, getting kicked out of peoples homes because of fighting while drunk. Then in May of 03 I woke up and didn't know what day it was.  I was alone, the Alternative recovery centers like SOS, were too far away.  Rational Recover was now charging for help and the Orange Papers just filled the web with complaints of AA but had no solution nor offered help.  I was desperate, I didn't care, I was dieing inside and afraid to live.  There is a meeting just about every hour on the hour in California.  I walked into my first meeting and said I was an alcoholic.  I saw men and woman professionals, lawyers, doctors, salesmen, teacher, and mothers, looking clean, happy, and healthy.  I didn't care about the God thing I would worry about that later.  I wanted to look and feel like them.  I decided to put my prejudice  aside a try it for a year.  I have 3 and 1/2 years sober, I fought every step but, I did them.  I was afraid to mention the anti AA websites when I did, everyone laughed.  when I said I hate Bill W, they laughed and said cool.  I kept trying to share all the stuff I had learned from the anti AA folks.  No one pushed me away like they said they would, no one said I wasn't welcome, like they said they would.  My sponsor said think all you want but, take action. Donald Trump didn't think his way to success.  So, I did, I love my life,  I pay my bills, I go to baseball games, concerts in the park, movies, I speak in front of hundreds of people without fear.  I don't walk in fear, I have bought a new Jeep, received raises, I moved into the apartment of my dreams,  I am more independent because I am not lead by fear.  I have  more friends than I can imagine.  I used the steps to stop drinking, to lose weight, when I am nervous.  Listen there are bad people in any group. ban lawyers, doctors, priest who will molests, teachers who will sleep with students.  There are bad people in AA but the program that I have followed has given me purpose when I had none, friends that are genuine, I laugh so hard I pee my pants.  I help other woman by giving to them what was freely giving to me.  I have never been held against my will.  Ok I had to do the phone list once.  It sucked.  Not much of a cult if you ask me.  We are way to undisciplined to keep others against there will.  The Big book tells me that if one doesn’t want it then please try something else. If AA were a cult then why does the big book say not to bother with a person who is not interested.  Not a very good cult if you ask me.   If your sponsor is abusive then get a new sponsor.  Go to a new meeting. I  know I will look high and low to find what I want to hear rather than what I need to hear.  If AA doesn’t work then find something that does.  That is the truth I was given.   Try AA for a year if it doesn’t work then we will gladly refund your misery.  Good luck gang.

No one is really saying that a.a. is a cult at this point, i hope. Now people seem to be arguing over whether or not it works. I'm glad you received help. Are you a program survivor?

.


No.  our super honest AA defenders here just copied and pasted that post from this page:
http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc. ... 9527&cn=14
See comment at :
Andrea Morgan - Apr 25th 2007

 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :tup:  :tup:  :tup:  :notworthy:  :notworthy:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:

Excellent find my friend, excellent find!!!   That's just too funny!

[Anonymous]

Ok, you misread me. I said that A.A. doesn’t own or profit off of Hazeldon or residential treatment centers....

And the IECA doesn't profit off NATSAP or it's residential treatment centers.  Right.  same realatinoship there.  Whether it's offical or not is pretty much irrelevant.  It's a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship.  Hazeldon publishes AA's books, there is board member crossover, etc.  Same as NATSAP and IECA.  If AA disapproves of court referrals so much or forced treatment, why don't they come out and say it.  It's like a snake being force-fed mice. You never see the snake complain.  Fact of the matter is that they're complicit and, as such, guilty as the rest of the bunch.

[Anonymous]

Alright, two can play at that game and I'll tell ya what.  I'll just use YOUR source, k??  I won't even go to the evil Orange Papers or More Revealed.  OK?  My turn.......




Dontwasteaway@gmail.com

A little about me: 14 years in and out of AA, trying to get their "spiritual experience". Finally got sober on Jan 15, 2006 with out the help of AA. That is when I realized that AA was wrong, because I was staying sober without it and without a god. I went back to meetings to share my true experience with people. I was shunned by group members and even some of my "so called" good friends. I want all the people currently in AA to know this: If there ever comes a time in your life where you feel like AA is not giving you what you need anymore, and you're ready to move on, you will lose a lot of people that you considered "good friends". This is one of the ways in which AA harms people. AA "true believers" will only accept you based on your acceptance of the program. And even worse: If you start to talk openly about your new "beliefs" in meetings, the true believers will look at you like you are killing innocent people. They claim what you are saying is bringing death to helpless alcoholics.

It's time to wake up people! Look at what calling things like "alcoholism" diseases has done to our country. This is the only so called disease where you can just change a behavior and get well. Are you serious? Thank God I woke up before it was too late. I truly believe that if I would of kept hanging on to the beliefs of AA that I would be dead. I really would of thought I was powerless and had no control over my life, and would of accepted that I was diseased. Wake up Dr. Dombeck. Like another poster said, "How can you sit here and say that something helps the masses after only sitting in a couple of meetings. I love the ignorance of the United States. People just go along with something because other people say it's good. What happened to all the freethinkers?

Michael T. McComb

[Anonymous]

LOL.  Bullshit.  Even when Bill Wilson was alive he was breaking that rule, taking stipends from John D. Rockefeller Jr..  I don't have time right now to go into all of it, but suffice it to say, that particular tradition just just CYA.  AA has it's hands in many pots and vica versa.

A.A. doesn’t own or profit from Hazeldon. A.A. is non-profit. It doesn’t profit, period. Its holdings and financial gains are publicly disclosed. Hazeldon and income from Hazeldon are not listed.

Second question: If AA is so "not for profit" why do they go around SUING people who give away their work for free:
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch12.htm

Whether German A.A. ever sued someone is irrelevant.
Clearly, you  have no idea what a non-profit organization is. Here’s some info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization
“Whereas profit-making corporations exist under the premise of earning and distributing taxable business earnings to shareholders, the non-profit organization exists primarily to provide programs and services that are of benefit to others and might not be otherwise provided by local, state, or federal entities. While they are able to earn a profit, more accurately called a surplus, such earnings are retained by the organization for its future provision of programs and services, and are not owned by nor distributed to individuals or stake-holders. In the United States, the laws governing charitable non-profits are based around the Internal Revenue Code, Section 501(c)(3) and the tax-deductible contribution guidelines of Section 170. Corporations classified as such, with gross receipts over $25,000, must report financial activity annually to the IRS, by means of a Form 990.”


A.A is non-profit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:I ... anizations

Last year they generated 13, 582,554 and had operating expenses of $12, 563,967.
(and lost income for the period) http://www.aa.org/pics_gen/en_gso07_operresults.jpg

Saying A.A. owns or profits from Hazeldon, or is secretly profiting whatsoever despite their nonprofit status is a serious charge. What is your proof? Why don’t you contact the IRS with that proof They’re sticklers about this stuff.

Or wait. let me guess you have no evidence, just wild conspiracy theories. Such behavior (and ignorance ) detracts from your credibility and makes discussion seem pointless. There are valid criticisms to be made against A.A. without resorting to wild innuendos.

[Anonymous]

Anyway. All this is besides the point of AA's efficacy. you STILL won't address that, refusing to read what I posted.

I never “refused to read” anything. Why are you saying something untrue?

I get it. SP thinks V’s studies don’t prove A.A.’s effectiveness. He wants us to use his “7 tools” instead. So?
You don’t understand that attacking competing theories through studies is the format of contemporary medicine.

Other doctors argued that V’s findings supported the disease model but V failed to represent that. So, yes, interested parties with different viewpoints alleged V's data was incomplete or actually supported THEIR hypothesis. Obviously.

What I object to is your presentation of S.P’s viewpoint as the definitive, or only one. Yes, S.P. interprets V’s work one way, but recognize that V and the majority of scientists feel it means another. For what it’s worth,
"Vaillant’s academic peers saw the The Natural History of Alcoholism as “objective, scholarly, and factual,”[70]
 “Vaillant concluded that AA appears equal or superior to conventional treatments for alcoholism”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Natura ... _Revisited

Here is the scientific majority's interpretation of V's work, from wiki:
In the sample of 100 severe alcoholics from his clinic, 48% of the 29 alcoholics who eventually achieved sobriety attended 300 or more AA meetings,[7] and AA attendance was associated with good outcomes in patients who otherwise would have been predicted not to remit.[8] In the sample of 465 men who grew up in Boston's inner city, the more severe alcoholics attended AA, possibly because all other avenues had failed[9] Vaillant's research and literature surveys revealed growing indirect evidence that AA is an effective treatment for alcohol abuse, partly because it is a cheap, community-based fellowship with easy access.
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:mt5 ... cd=1&gl=us


There’ve been many studies indicating A.A.’s effectiveness besides Vaillients.  Have you noticed each time a study verifies its effectiveness you “lol” and dismiss it? Are you a scientist who scrupulously, objectively reviewed the original data, or are you a person with a emotionally charged viewpoint who reads others’ criticisms and reiterates them if they happen to support your pre-existing viewpoint because you’re not objectively interested in discovering A.A.’s effectiveness, just in “proving” (as far as repeating stuff on the net goes as proving) it doesn’t work?

You know, admitting some studies indicate its effectiveness doesn’t mean its effective or invalidate your criticisms. JMHO

[Anonymous]

Anyway. All this is besides the point of AA's efficacy. you STILL won't address that, refusing to read what I posted.

I never “refused to read” anything. Why are you saying something untrue?

I get it. SP thinks V’s studies don’t prove A.A.’s effectiveness. He wants us to use his “7 tools” instead. So?
You don’t understand that attacking competing theories through studies is the format of contemporary medicine.

Other doctors argued that V’s findings supported the disease model but V failed to represent that. So, yes, interested parties with different viewpoints alleged V's data was incomplete or actually supported THEIR hypothesis. Obviously.

What I object to is your presentation of S.P’s viewpoint as the definitive, or only one. Yes, S.P. interprets V’s work one way, but recognize that V and the majority of scientists feel it means another. For what it’s worth,
"Vaillant’s academic peers saw the The Natural History of Alcoholism as “objective, scholarly, and factual,”[70]
 “Vaillant concluded that AA appears equal or superior to conventional treatments for alcoholism”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Natura ... _Revisited

Here is the scientific majority's interpretation of V's work, from wiki:
In the sample of 100 severe alcoholics from his clinic, 48% of the 29 alcoholics who eventually achieved sobriety attended 300 or more AA meetings,[7] and AA attendance was associated with good outcomes in patients who otherwise would have been predicted not to remit.[8] In the sample of 465 men who grew up in Boston's inner city, the more severe alcoholics attended AA, possibly because all other avenues had failed[9] Vaillant's research and literature surveys revealed growing indirect evidence that AA is an effective treatment for alcohol abuse, partly because it is a cheap, community-based fellowship with easy access.
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:mt5 ... cd=1&gl=us

[Anonymous]

By educating doctors, hospitals, ministers along this line, you will surely pick up some strong prospects after a bit.
    PASS IT ON, The story of Bill Wilson and how the A.A. message reached the world, Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., pages 225-226.