the dangers of equating AA and programs

[Anonymous]

For some reason a lot of survivors seem to become addicted to drugs after they get out. The pro program people claim it as proof that they needed help and confirm the program was necessary, albeit a failure. They say, if only the person had tried harder and given in, they would of ended up clean and sober. They think programs attract the worst kids, and so when looking at them as a group they are not surprised of the many suicides and drug addicts that come from former program attendees.

Another vein of thought suggests that the program itself is so destructive psychologically, that it causes PTSD and that is why people who went through programs use drugs and commit suicide in noticeable numbers compared to the regular population. I happen to agree with this one, because I think most kids sent to programs are normal. I don't agree with this theory that the kids in programs were the worst, and therefore expected to fail, use drugs or even kill themselves. I think programs can cause some damage. At the present moment doctors classify this state of mind as PTSD but I think it's complicated and not so easily packaged into a diagnosis as that, but basically it's true.

But whatever theory you subscribe to, most people can agree that people that went through programs have more problems than a group of people who didn't go through programs, for some reason.

So this got me thinking, why are people who went through programs prone to such a doomed existence.

It also made me think maybe one of the reasons why this happens, is because they are afraid to get help. Last time they were offered "help" they got treated like an animal, being experimented on. People aren't going to voluntarily return to that, so from then on they will be apprehensive to ask for any help at all. It's hard to get trust back, once it's shattered so thoroughly and completely.

If people are afraid to get help, and trust anyone else, then if they are dealing with PTSD or depression or worse, or get addicted to drugs, where will they go for help? We already established how it's clear many would view "help" as something to avoid. So they suffer in silence, all alone and unable to trust anyone to help them.

I think this is a reason why equating AA to programs is, in fact, quite dangerous. By claiming that a group that (you never know) might help someone get the help they desperately need, is just like a program, it might make them think twice. Do you see what I'm saying here? In a program you do not go voluntarily, you can not walk out whenever you want, you cannot have free conversations with others. In a meeting, it's nothing like a program. It's not like a cult either, it's just a group of people trying to help themselves.

So why we engage in intellectual debates from the ivory tower on fornits, judging people like this we may be in fact hurting them. If a survivor is addicted to drugs and having problems, they should ask for help, even if the only option is AA. I THINK ITS CRUEL to think that we know best, and tell they are about to get sucked into another program.

I think, by saying these things, it could actually cause real life consequences. So many survivors never ask for help, and then take drastic action all on their own based on flawed perceptions based on their experience. We should not support these paranoid views because it ends up hurting people.

So I hope we can refrain from this type of talk in the future. I think by blurring the lines between what is a program, and what isn't, it forces people back into the dark closet of suffering. This type of talk may even cost people lives, because a lot of survivors read fornits. We need to be more careful with what we say and how it impacts those reading it.

[Anonymous]

....So I hope we can refrain from this type of talk in the future. I think by blurring the lines between what is a program, and what isn't, it forces people back into the dark closet of suffering. This type of talk may even cost people lives, because a lot of survivors read fornits. We need to be more careful with what we say and how it impacts those reading it.

How about this suggestion: Take your own advice. YOU "can refrain from this type of talk in the future."

I just don't get where YOU think we are all part of some GROUP that has to agree on anything. In fact, reading posts like yours makes me want to take out an Ad on national television about AA's CULTY ways, AA's CULT origins, AA is a goddamn friggin' CULT, Bill Wilson is a hallucinating, womanizing, misogynistic prick and a besotted rum-drenched fruitcake with a potentially lethal messiah complex, etc.

Do ALL cults demonstrate the caliber of violence and destruction of Jim Jones' The People's Temple or Chuck E. D.'s Synanon? NO. Some cults are far more benign. I would categorize AA as more benign; although not necessarily very benign, as there is a fair range of coerciveness depending on the temperament of your local AA group aka CULT.

There are also some people who have more pronounced susceptibility to the kind of damage exacted by COERCIVE GROUPS. I personally have found fornits' discussion of AA the CULT and the airing of AA's dirty laundry to be quite informative and quite liberating, really....

You want to take away this aspect of my "healing," do you? You find it unseemly, do you? With all due respect and consideration for your feelings and all, where do YOU get off making those kinds of judgments for ME or for ANYONE, for that matter?

Stop trying to control the boards.

[Anonymous]

For some reason a lot of survivors seem to become addicted to drugs after they get out. The pro program people claim it as proof that they needed help and confirm the program was necessary, albeit a failure. They say, if only the person had tried harder and given in, they would of ended up clean and sober. They think programs attract the worst kids, and so when looking at them as a group they are not surprised of the many suicides and drug addicts that come from former program attendees.

Another vein of thought suggests that the program itself is so destructive psychologically, that it causes PTSD and that is why people who went through programs use drugs and commit suicide in noticeable numbers compared to the regular population. I happen to agree with this one, because I think most kids sent to programs are normal. I don't agree with this theory that the kids in programs were the worst, and therefore expected to fail, use drugs or even kill themselves. I think programs can cause some damage. At the present moment doctors classify this state of mind as PTSD but I think it's complicated and not so easily packaged into a diagnosis as that, but basically it's true.

But whatever theory you subscribe to, most people can agree that people that went through programs have more problems than a group of people who didn't go through programs, for some reason.

So this got me thinking, why are people who went through programs prone to such a doomed existence.

It also made me think maybe one of the reasons why this happens, is because they are afraid to get help. Last time they were offered "help" they got treated like an animal, being experimented on. People aren't going to voluntarily return to that, so from then on they will be apprehensive to ask for any help at all. It's hard to get trust back, once it's shattered so thoroughly and completely.

If people are afraid to get help, and trust anyone else, then if they are dealing with PTSD or depression or worse, or get addicted to drugs, where will they go for help? We already established how it's clear many would view "help" as something to avoid. So they suffer in silence, all alone and unable to trust anyone to help them.

I think this is a reason why equating AA to programs is, in fact, quite dangerous. By claiming that a group that (you never know) might help someone get the help they desperately need, is just like a program, it might make them think twice. Do you see what I'm saying here? In a program you do not go voluntarily, you can not walk out whenever you want, you cannot have free conversations with others. In a meeting, it's nothing like a program. It's not like a cult either, it's just a group of people trying to help themselves.

So why we engage in intellectual debates from the ivory tower on fornits, judging people like this we may be in fact hurting them. If a survivor is addicted to drugs and having problems, they should ask for help, even if the only option is AA. I THINK ITS CRUEL to think that we know best, and tell they are about to get sucked into another program.

I think, by saying these things, it could actually cause real life consequences. So many survivors never ask for help, and then take drastic action all on their own based on flawed perceptions based on their experience. We should not support these paranoid views because it ends up hurting people.

So I hope we can refrain from this type of talk in the future. I think by blurring the lines between what is a program, and what isn't, it forces people back into the dark closet of suffering. This type of talk may even cost people lives, because a lot of survivors read fornits. We need to be more careful with what we say and how it impacts those reading it.

^^^^^^^^
For you, the OP:

FUT FUT FUT
FUT FUT FUT
I AM STOOPID

Repeat until it sinks in.   :beat:

[Anonymous]

You must already know you're a heartless beast, so I suppose there is little effect in pointing it out. It has become expected around here for your type of word vomit to be spewed. I beginning think this site does more damage than good, and hurts more people than it helps.

[Anonymous]

You must already know you're a heartless beast, so I suppose there is little effect in pointing it out. It has become expected around here for your type of word vomit to be spewed. I beginning think this site does more damage than good, and hurts more people than it helps.

Matter of opinion.  You don't like Fornits anyway, it's obvious from the "ivory tower" reference, etc., etc.  By the way, I think forcing someone into a cult like AA is the behavior of a "heartless beast".  It's about choice, and if you're at all familiar with AA you would know that no program works unless the "addict" wants to quit and wants to quit for their own sake.

"I beginning to think (AA) does more damage than good, and hurts more people than it helps".  There.  That's better.

You sound like a wounded Scientologist.  Sorry your cult's been maligned by our "word vomit".

[Anonymous]

I beginning think this site does more damage than good

FUT FUT FUT
FUT FUT FUT
I AM STOOPID

Heartless maybe.  Correct about you obviously.

[Anonymous]

For some reason a lot of survivors seem to become addicted to drugs after they get out. The pro program people claim it as proof that they needed help and confirm the program was necessary, albeit a failure. They say, if only the person had tried harder and given in, they would of ended up clean and sober. They think programs attract the worst kids, and so when looking at them as a group they are not surprised of the many suicides and drug addicts that come from former program attendees.

Another vein of thought suggests that the program itself is so destructive psychologically, that it causes PTSD and that is why people who went through programs use drugs and commit suicide in noticeable numbers compared to the regular population. I happen to agree with this one, because I think most kids sent to programs are normal. I don't agree with this theory that the kids in programs were the worst, and therefore expected to fail, use drugs or even kill themselves. I think programs can cause some damage. At the present moment doctors classify this state of mind as PTSD but I think it's complicated and not so easily packaged into a diagnosis as that, but basically it's true.

But whatever theory you subscribe to, most people can agree that people that went through programs have more problems than a group of people who didn't go through programs, for some reason.

So this got me thinking, why are people who went through programs prone to such a doomed existence.

It also made me think maybe one of the reasons why this happens, is because they are afraid to get help. Last time they were offered "help" they got treated like an animal, being experimented on. People aren't going to voluntarily return to that, so from then on they will be apprehensive to ask for any help at all. It's hard to get trust back, once it's shattered so thoroughly and completely.

If people are afraid to get help, and trust anyone else, then if they are dealing with PTSD or depression or worse, or get addicted to drugs, where will they go for help? We already established how it's clear many would view "help" as something to avoid. So they suffer in silence, all alone and unable to trust anyone to help them.

I think this is a reason why equating AA to programs is, in fact, quite dangerous. By claiming that a group that (you never know) might help someone get the help they desperately need, is just like a program, it might make them think twice. Do you see what I'm saying here? In a program you do not go voluntarily, you can not walk out whenever you want, you cannot have free conversations with others. In a meeting, it's nothing like a program. It's not like a cult either, it's just a group of people trying to help themselves.

So why we engage in intellectual debates from the ivory tower on fornits, judging people like this we may be in fact hurting them. If a survivor is addicted to drugs and having problems, they should ask for help, even if the only option is AA. I THINK ITS CRUEL to think that we know best, and tell they are about to get sucked into another program.

I think, by saying these things, it could actually cause real life consequences. So many survivors never ask for help, and then take drastic action all on their own based on flawed perceptions based on their experience. We should not support these paranoid views because it ends up hurting people.

So I hope we can refrain from this type of talk in the future. I think by blurring the lines between what is a program, and what isn't, it forces people back into the dark closet of suffering. This type of talk may even cost people lives, because a lot of survivors read fornits. We need to be more careful with what we say and how it impacts those reading it.

I agree, but get the feeling you are a troll.

[Anonymous]

....So I hope we can refrain from this type of talk in the future. I think by blurring the lines between what is a program, and what isn't, it forces people back into the dark closet of suffering. This type of talk may even cost people lives, because a lot of survivors read fornits. We need to be more careful with what we say and how it impacts those reading it.

How about this suggestion: Take your own advice. YOU "can refrain from this type of talk in the future."

I just don't get where YOU think we are all part of some GROUP that has to agree on anything. In fact, reading posts like yours makes me want to take out an Ad on national television about AA's CULTY ways, AA's CULT origins, AA is a goddamn friggin' CULT, Bill Wilson is a hallucinating, womanizing, misogynistic prick and a besotted rum-drenched fruitcake with a potentially lethal messiah complex, etc.

Do ALL cults demonstrate the caliber of violence and destruction of Jim Jones' The People's Temple or Chuck E. D.'s Synanon? NO. Some cults are far more benign. I would categorize AA as more benign; although not necessarily very benign, as there is a fair range of coerciveness depending on the temperament of your local AA group aka CULT.

There are also some people who have more pronounced susceptibility to the kind of damage exacted by COERCIVE GROUPS. I personally have found fornits' discussion of AA the CULT and the airing of AA's dirty laundry to be quite informative and quite liberating, really....

You want to take away this aspect of my "healing," do you? You find it unseemly, do you? With all due respect and consideration for your feelings and all, where do YOU get off making those kinds of judgments for ME or for ANYONE, for that matter?

Stop trying to control the boards.

You kinda come accross as insane, dumb and nasty . Were you in a program? It is a little suspect to bring up this topic just to say, no one should talk about it. Maybe this person is trying to generate your sort of...uh...passionate... response, so users here look nutty. Maybe that person and you are the same person. Oh, the moronic mystery of this website!

[Froderik]

Oh, the moronic mystery of this website!

:rofl:  :timeout:  :twofinger:  :rocker:  :clown:  :whip:  :jamin:  :moon:  ::unhappy::  ::deadhorse::  :fuckoff:  :poison:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:   :ftard:  ::evil::  :deal:  :twofinger:

[Anonymous]

You kinda come accross as insane, dumb and nasty . Were you in a program? It is a little suspect to bring up this topic just to say, no one should talk about it. Maybe this person is trying to generate your sort of...uh...passionate... response, so users here look nutty. Maybe that person and you are the same person. Oh, the moronic mystery of this website!

Wow.  You posted something that others disagree with, try to bludgeon people into accepting your opinion, then you whine like a little bitch and start in with the hamfisted "insane, dumb and nasty" remarks.

AA offers all or nothing:  you work their program or you end up in jail, dead or in an institution.  I've been in "those rooms", it's no different than a teen program except you (sometimes) heave the option of getting up and leaving.  I did, never drank again and encouraged people to try every option BUT AA if they asked about how to quit drinking.

You get so angry defending AA, which almost all of us have had a big dose of either in programs or for other reasons.  You're not going to change anyone's mind who's been to the AA well and found the water to taste of piss.  There are other ways to stop drinking that don't require a lifetime of sitting in group swallowing huge doses of AA cliches and the quasi-religious dogshit they spoon feed the cultists.

You've stated your point, troll.  You would do better with a group of readers who haven't experienced forced treatment and AA.

[Anonymous]

Must be big friendly Bob Pegler. He is peglerizing all of us.

[Anonymous]

You kinda come accross as insane, dumb and nasty . Were you in a program? It is a little suspect to bring up this topic just to say, no one should talk about it. Maybe this person is trying to generate your sort of...uh...passionate... response, so users here look nutty. Maybe that person and you are the same person. Oh, the moronic mystery of this website!

Wow.  You posted something that others disagree with, try to bludgeon people into accepting your opinion, then you whine like a little bitch and start in with the hamfisted "insane, dumb and nasty" remarks.

AA offers all or nothing:  you work their program or you end up in jail, dead or in an institution.  I've been in "those rooms", it's no different than a teen program except you (sometimes) heave the option of getting up and leaving.  I did, never drank again and encouraged people to try every option BUT AA if they asked about how to quit drinking.

You get so angry defending AA, which almost all of us have had a big dose of either in programs or for other reasons.  You're not going to change anyone's mind who's been to the AA well and found the water to taste of piss.  There are other ways to stop drinking that don't require a lifetime of sitting in group swallowing huge doses of AA cliches and the quasi-religious dogshit they spoon feed the cultists.

You've stated your point, troll.  You would do better with a group of readers who haven't experienced forced treatment and AA.

I’m not the o.p. I think you’re the one who comes across as angry, which is what I said what I did. The o.p. was just thinking out-loud in a courteous fashion...the haterific insulting… seemed kinda unprovoked.

“I’ve been in those rooms” also. There’s no reason to make that sound so melodramatic.

I DIDN’T have the option to leave because I was forced to be there. (btw, A.A didn’t know I was forced.) Still, there was nothing approaching thought reform in there. Not liking something doesn’t make it a cult or cult-like.

Margaret Singer studied A.A. and describes it as a benign group and uses it to teach the difference between a self-help group, a church and cult. Rick Ross has studied it extensively and definitively ranks it outside any cult-spectrum. The criteria that make something a cult do not apply to A.A.

Out of curiosity, if you weren’t forced to go to A.A. why were you there?

[FemanonFatal2.0]

So why we engage in intellectual debates from the ivory tower on fornits, judging people like this we may be in fact hurting them. If a survivor is addicted to drugs and having problems, they should ask for help, even if the only option is AA. I THINK ITS CRUEL to think that we know best, and tell they are about to get sucked into another program.

Consider this, If a survivor were to have "become addicted to drugs" and was as you've stated "afraid to ask for help" don't you think the fact that they had already learned the doctrine of AA in the program be the factor that kept them in contempt of AA?... I really don't think anything that is said on Fornits would convince them, people are usually convinced by their personal experiences. Just the same, if there were a significant amount of people on Fornits who supported AA I really don't think that would have an effect on a person's choice to "get help" either.

I might also add one thing, not many meth addicts or alcoholics are partial to sit down and read through the archives of Fornits, that doesn't really sound like the good time that most addicts are looking for. lol

I think we are all entitled to speak about whatever we choose, especially on the subject of a widely accepted cult-like organization which is very much on point with the general topic of this forum in the first place. I don't think it is appropriate to try to censor those who choose to report their findings and opinions on any subject simply because you are afraid of a slim chance that someone may be influenced by our conversations and decide not to get help for their addictions. I tend to think that if an addict is ready to quit he will and if he is not, he wont. Fornits has NOTHING to do with peoples life choices. I think you are free to argue your points here, but I recommend that you refrain from passing judgment on the forum as a whole and requesting we stop expressing our opinions, because you will simply be wasting your breath.

[Anonymous]

I’m not the o.p. I think you’re the one who comes across as angry, which is what I said what I did. The o.p. was just thinking out-loud in a courteous fashion...the haterific insulting… seemed kinda unprovoked.

Well gosh.  Everyone is named guest.  I didn't post any haterific insulting.

“I’ve been in those rooms” also. There’s no reason to make that sound so melodramatic.

That's why I put it in quotes, AA uses "these rooms" like they're talking about a cathedral.  If you think AA isn't chock full of melodrama, you're not paying attention.  It's a soap opera.

Out of curiosity, if you weren’t forced to go to A.A. why were you there?

Too personal to share on here with a bunch of anonymous trolls shambling about.  I was there because...what's the cute little cliche AA uses?  Oh yeah, I got a "nudge from the judge".  Then I tried it again of my own accord, so I know AA as a forced and voluntary participant.

Again, just sharing my experiences and opinions.

[Anonymous]

I think this is a reason why equating AA to programs is, in fact, quite dangerous. By claiming that a group that (you never know) might help someone get the help they desperately need, is just like a program, it might make them think twice. Do you see what I'm saying here?

You're basing that on the assumption that AA 'works'.  It doesn't.  

In a program you do not go voluntarily, you can not walk out whenever you want, you cannot have free conversations with others. In a meeting, it's nothing like a program. It's not like a cult either, it's just a group of people trying to help themselves.

Not true.  People are forced and coerced into AA every day.  Courts order them.  Spouses threaten to leave if they don't attend.  Family members threaten to 'stop enabling' them (i.e. throw them out) if they don't attend.  Etc. etc.  Then, once you get INTO the rooms, more coercion and groupthink.

So why we engage in intellectual debates from the ivory tower on fornits,

Huh, what???  Why???  Seriously?  And the 'ivory tower' context says a lot.

judging people like this we may be in fact hurting them. If a survivor is addicted to drugs and having problems, they should ask for help, even if the only option is AA. I THINK ITS CRUEL to think that we know best, and tell they are about to get sucked into another program.

I think it's cruel to state that AA 'works' in any way, shape or form.  I think it's cruel to encourage people to join into more groupthink.  I think it's cruel to expose people who have experienced what we have to another cult-like mentality.

I think, by saying these things, it could actually cause real life consequences.

Yes, it certainly can.

 

So many survivors never ask for help, and then take drastic action all on their own based on flawed perceptions based on their experience. We should not support these paranoid views because it ends up hurting people.

I agree that we should not support these paranoid views of Bill Wilson that AA espouses.  Because it ends up hurting people.
 

So I hope we can refrain from this type of talk in the future. I think by blurring the lines between what is a program, and what isn't, it forces people back into the dark closet of suffering. This type of talk may even cost people lives, because a lot of survivors read fornits. We need to be more careful with what we say and how it impacts those reading it.

No, we really don't.  What we need is RAMPANT TALKING OUT IN GROUP!!!!!!!!!