People get physically addicted to the chemicals they are putting in their bodies. In the beginning it might be a choice, but after a while it is no longer a choice.
For some yes, but not all.
If you think depression is bad, try withdrawing from opiates and it's derivatives.
I have
.
Not everybody has health insurance, or can afford to go to a medical rehab. That's where AA comes in. All it is, is a meeting place for like minded people. The only thing they have in common, is they want to stop using alcohol or drugs. People who have been through it want to help others do it too. I mean, it's not that complicated.
Yes, but AA is not "the" solution. It breeds dependence and self doubt. Most AAers will tell you that to maintain their sobriety the must continually attend meetings. Again, they're "signing their own death warrant" if they leave. That's simply not true and a dangerous set-up.
I don't need to read books and studies to know what's going on. I've been through it all myself and form my opinions based on that.
That's very telling.
By saying addicts and alcoholics are choosing to be that way is the same thing as saying people choose the way they feel. You are choosing to be depressed. You are choosing to be anxious. You are choosing to have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
No, we're not. Not at all. We're saying its not a disease.
I know that makes some people feel uncomfortable. They want to think they are fully in control.
No, its not. But that's typical AA speak. It allows YOU to feel comfortable in your submission to groupthink. We used to get told that in the program too, remember?
Well, if you abstain from additive drugs altogether you might avoid it. But it's clear, out of the majority of people who can drink and use without being addicted, a certain portion will become addicted. That's a fact.
Well, yes but I'm not really sure what your point is. Re-read that sentence.
If anything, the failure rate proves the biological disease model of addiction.
Really? How do you figure that?
Some people seem to have more problems than others with alcohol and drugs. Consider yourself lucky, you are in the large majority who are able to handle drugs and alcohol responsibly. It doesn't give you the right, however, to tell those who do have a problem with it how they should handle themselves.
I don't believe any of us did. That's how AA operates. We are pointing out the dangers of AA and providing alternatives.
By telling them it's a choice, you are telling them they are a stupid person, because they make bad choices every day. It's a horrible way of dealing with addiction. The person who explained why AA came about in the first place described it best, how alcoholics were marginalized and shamed in the past. You want to return to that old way, I think that's a mistake.
You sure do read a lot into things that simply aren't there. No one is saying that.
Just like AA in programs, is not the AA a free person would see. Why don't you hold therapy accountable for the program version of therapy? This is something I do not understand.
I'm sorry, I have no idea what you said up there.
I think it's natural for people to assume people in an AA meeting are alcoholics. If you aren't an alcoholic or addict, then walk out of the AA meeting.
You can't be serious. What if someone is questioning themselves or their drinking. That in itself is ALSO considered a symptom, according to every AA meeting I've ever attended. It's a no win situation, just like the denial issue.
If it makes you uncomfortable in any way, leave. If you want to, try going to another meeting. Or don't, nobody else will try to stop you.
Yes, they will. They'll tell you to just "keep coming back, it works if you work it".
I've never seen bars on the windows of AA meetings. I've never seen anyone restrained in an AA meeting. I've never seen thugs standing at the door watching guard. I've never seen people forced to share in an AA meeting.
Coercion and force isn't done just physically. Be honest here. There's a ton of coercion in AA.
I've never anything remotely program like in an AA meeting,
Then you are truly blind.
as a matter of fact. This is why when you claim AA and programs are the same, I shake my head in confusion.
I'm sure you do. We're not saying they're the same. We ARE saying that they're very similar and use similar mental and emotional tactics.
I wish you could see how similar you sound to them, it's scary almost.
I wish you could see how similar you sound to program parents. It IS scary.
Why can't you acknowledge that AA helps some people, usually the people who need it most?
We did. Several times. Why can't you acknowledge that there are, in fact, similarities?
Nobody has ever been forced to attend AA in the history of the organization.
Now that's just a bald (bold? I never did know) faced lie.
If you are talking about the slim portion of attendees who are court ordered, well that is also an option. They are not dragged into a meeting in handcuffs and forced to sit there. If that were true, then yes I would say it was program like. People are offered this as an alternative to other forms of punishment. Take it up with the justice system if you don't like their way of doing business.
And if you can't see the emotional or mental blackmail in that then you are most assuredly the sheep in this scenario.
It has nothing to do with AA. AA did not lobby the criminal justice system to force people to attend, they do not get paid by how many people attend.
My, you are a naive one aren't you?
Going to AA is a personal choice. Going to meetings might help people, just like some people think medication helps them. It's no different. If you think medication helps you that's great.
A lot of medication IS harmful. That's why they come with warning labels. That's what we're doing here. Informed consent. Buyer beware.
I would sound like an arrogant extremist,
You do.
unwilling to even acknowledge that some people might, in fact, be helped by taking medication.
Again, you read a lot into things that aren't there. No one ever said it helped no one. Why do you keep insisting we have?
I am able to acknowledge that the abusive, coercive psychiatry that goes on in some hospitals is not the same as voluntary, individualized treatment as a free person. Why cannot you acknowledge the same about AA?
We haven't said it's the same. We've said they use a lot of the same tactics. Please read for comprehension from now on. This is getting tiresome to have to continually go over this.
Do you really believe that AA helps no people at all, and actually makes 100% of it's attendees addiction's worse?
Where did ANYone say that?
I don't need to read studies, I've been to many meetings over many years, and know many people who have stayed sober because of it
I know, I know. Why educate yourself? Why look at an opposing point of view? Stick to the groupthink. It seems to be working out well for you.
What critical thinking skills?? :ftard:
. I'm sure it doesn't work for everyone.
Yep, according to Valliant, 95% of them.
They can leave, and search for an alternative that will help them.
But they'll "surely be signing their own death warrant", right?
If those meetings worked so well, why is AA so much more popular?
They've been the only game in town until recently. No one dared question the Great and Powerful Oz until recently.
People are free to choose what type of support they want. Bad mouthing one option, and propping up another is not the business I am in. I think people are intelligent enough for themselves to figure it out. If they don't like it, they can leave after 30 seconds. I don't see what the big deal is. Not everybody can afford to go to therapists.
I am in the business of informed consent. I want people to be aware of the dangers. There are plenty of AA defenders out there. We're but a small, but growing voice of critical thought and reason against tide. Why do AAers gets so angry when anyone levels ANY form of criticism of their beloved program and how familiar does that sound and feel to us all?
Well if a couple of magicians say something, it's got to be true then.
Jeez, it's an opinion. And presented in a hilarious light. All we're saying is to 'question authority' basically. Why are you so worked up about this?
Have you read the AA and NA big books?
Yes, and if you'd really like to we can cite passages. Although I'd suggest moving it to a different thread cuz that would get really boring, but I'll go toe to toe with you. Ready?
All it is, is stories by people who were addicted to alcohol and drugs and what helped them recover.
Ok, now you clearly have NOT read them.
What is so offensive about the concept of God? They don't even call it God, they call it a Higher Power.
It's not offensive. Open your closed mind dear. What's offensive is forcing or coercing the concept on anyone.
It's not a religious organization.
It most certainly is and the courts have ruled so.
I'm not going to read this, I have no reason to.
It absolutely astounds me that people refuse to educate themselves. It's just someone's opinion. Why are you so afraid of hearing opposing points of view?
My viewpoints are very simple actually.
You said it, I didn't. :seg:
I think AA helps some people get sober and stay sober.
So do I.
I also think that AA is nothing like abusive programs. I think by comparing the two, it minimizes what really goes inside of abusive programs, to an offensive degree. That's it, I don't hold a very complicated set of beliefs here.
Oh yes you do.
I think it's common sense, based on what I've seen. Blurring the lines between the coercion and abuse inside of programs, with organizations such as AA, is dishonest, and I cannot take part in it. Nothing I have ever experienced in the "free world" compares to what goes on inside of a program. Nothing.
Ok......some of see it differently.
