the dangers of equating AA and programs

[Anonymous]

I'll leave you with this quote by George Vaillant of AA's board of trustees (yes these are his words):

It seemed perfectly clear that by meeting the immediate individual needs of the alcoholic. . ., by disregarding "motivation," by turning to recovering alcoholics rather than to Ph.D.'s for lessons in breaking self-detrimental and more or less involuntary habits, and by inexorably moving patients from dependence upon the general hospital into the treatment system of AA, I was working for the most exciting alcohol program in the world.

    But then came the rub. Fueled by our enthusiasm, I. . . tried to prove our efficacy. Our clinic followed up our first 100 detoxification patients. . . every year for the next 8 years. . . . After initial discharge, only 5 patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment mere no better than the natural history of the disease. (emphasis added)53

Just to chime in here with reality for a moment: psy is misrepresenting Vaillant's findings. More specifcically, he is presenting other people's misrepresentations of his findings.

Unfortunely, there are two websites, A.O and More Revealed that seem to be ivolved with competitor for-profit addiction services. More Revealed actually has a section run by Smart Recovery@ IMO, while there are valid critisms of A.A. in these sites, there is a lot of info that is just not true, or worse.

[Anonymous]

When all is said and done, I think it's pretty silly that someone needs god to do something as worldly as keep them sober.

god used to do my laundry, but he always mixed colors and whites and now all of my underwear is pink.

The majority of AA members believe that we have found the solution to our drinking problem not through individual willpower, but through a power greater than ourselves. However, everyone defines this power as he or she wishes. Many people call it God, others think it is the AA group, still others don’t believe in it at all. There is room in AA for people of all shades of belief and non-belief. The official beliefs of AA as expressed in AA literature and on the official Alcoholics Anonymous web sites are non-religious in nature and open to free interpretation of the terms "God" and "Higher Power".

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:TNc ... cd=1&gl=us

[Anonymous]

When all is said and done, I think it's pretty silly that someone needs god to do something as worldly as keep them sober.

god used to do my laundry, but he always mixed colors and whites and now all of my underwear is pink.

"The majority of AA members believe that we have found the solution to our drinking problem not through individual willpower, but through a power greater than ourselves. However, everyone defines this power as he or she wishes. Many people call it God, others think it is the AA group, still others don’t believe in it at all. There is room in AA for people of all shades of belief and non-belief. The official beliefs of AA as expressed in AA literature and on the official Alcoholics Anonymous web sites are non-religious in nature and open to free interpretation of the terms "God" and "Higher Power".

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:TNc ... cd=1&gl=us

[psy]

And the courts found that distinction was bullshit and that AA was playing with words.

In the case of Grandberg v. Ashland County, a 1984 Federal 7th Circuit Court ruling concerning judicially-mandated A.A. attendance, the court said:

    Alcoholics Anonymous materials and the testimony of the witness established beyond a doubt that religious activities, as defined in constitutional law, were a part of the treatment program. The distinction between religion and spirituality is meaningless, and serves merely to confuse the issue.
    — Wisconsin's District Judge John Shabaz

All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:

    * the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
    * the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
    * the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
    * the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
    * the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
    * the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
    * the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
    * the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
    * the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
    * the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
    * The Federal Appeals Court in Hawaii, September 7, 2007, in the Inouye v. Kemna case.

[psy]

I'll leave you with this quote by George Vaillant of AA's board of trustees (yes these are his words):

It seemed perfectly clear that by meeting the immediate individual needs of the alcoholic. . ., by disregarding "motivation," by turning to recovering alcoholics rather than to Ph.D.'s for lessons in breaking self-detrimental and more or less involuntary habits, and by inexorably moving patients from dependence upon the general hospital into the treatment system of AA, I was working for the most exciting alcohol program in the world.

    But then came the rub. Fueled by our enthusiasm, I. . . tried to prove our efficacy. Our clinic followed up our first 100 detoxification patients. . . every year for the next 8 years. . . . After initial discharge, only 5 patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment mere no better than the natural history of the disease. (emphasis added)53

Just to chime in here with reality for a moment: psy is misrepresenting Vaillant's findings. More specifcically, he is presenting other people's misrepresentations of his findings.

You truly are batshit insane.  I quoted Vailant DIRECTLY.  Those are HIS WORDS...  NOT interpretations of his words.  HIS words... not that you would ever read enough to know that.  Can't you get it through your thick 12 steppign scull that even AA's defenders admit it doesnt' work!  Vaillant has been trying in futility to prove his faith to be true for some time now and all he's managed to do is prove the critics of AA right.

You wont' even READ the links.  You outright REFUSE ("I don't need to read studies, I've been to many meetings over many years, and know many people who have stayed sober because of it." <-- your words), and yet you have the arrogance to claim that the information on there is somehow false or that the writers have ulterior motives (even if that were true, you're STILL not adressing their research or arguments).  LOL.  All you're proving to everybody here is just how batshit fucking insane you 12 steppers are and just how terrified you are of having your god-inspired truth shat on by the cold hard facts.

[Anonymous]

And AA has treatment programs too (Hazelden, for example). You could make the same argument of AA

A.A. does not have its own residential treatment centers, nor Hazeldon.

“A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes.”

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:TWs ... cd=3&gl=us


A.A. is not a for-profit business so the same argument could not be made (I wasn’t really trying to make an argument, though)

Hazeldon is not “owned” by A.A.
http://www.hazelden.org/

 It also offers other treatment options then one adapted from A.A. including the matrix model
http://www.hazelden.org/OA_HTML/ibeCCtp ... ?item=6882

Its own “model” that it has developed, isn’t even A.A. proper, it’s adapted from A.A. and called the Minnesota Model
http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/clin ... earch.page

[try another castle]

The majority of AA members believe that we have found the solution to our drinking problem not through individual willpower, but through a power greater than ourselves.

How sad for you guys.

I've posted this here before, but here it is again:

12 Steps To Hell: By Jim Goad

1. We admitted that our addictions were fucking us up.

2. Came to believe that since we started them, only we could stop them.

3. Made a decision to follow our gut instincts as we understood them.

4. Didn't bullshit ourselves about our many flaws.

5. Having admitted our flaws, we kept them to ourselves - they're nobody else's business.

6. Were entirely ready to argue with anyone who disagreed.

7. Filled with self-respect, we did nothing humbly.

8. Made a list of all the persons we had harmed and realized that most of them deserved it.

9. Paid all our police fines, then burned all our bridges.

10. Continued to be ruthlessly honest with ourselves and admitted all our wrongs - to ourselves.

11. Trusted ourselves and only ourselves with what's best for us.

12. Having assumed full responsibility for our lives, we weren't foolish enough to try to change everyone else - first, it's a losing proposition, and second, we couldn't care less.

Can't you get it through your thick 12 steppign scull that even AA's defenders admit it doesnt' work!

This is entirely true. I remember many meetings where members said that most of us "wouldn't make it", and if we did, we were one of the "lucky ones".

How much do you want to bet that the only reason AA membership is so high is because of the large percentage of people who are made to go, by the state or simply by outside pressure unrelated to the law. As far as this dude is concerned, the only people who truly kick are the ones who truly want to. So you take a bunch of junkies who aren't ready to quit and put them in a room together with crappy coffee, a convoluted program that teaches then to be powerless and that they have a lifetime disease, and that the only thing that can help is something outside of themselves? (god, higher power, a group of junkies who don't want to quit)

And they wonder why people don't stick around?

[Anonymous]

I'll leave you with this quote by George Vaillant of AA's board of trustees (yes these are his words):

It seemed perfectly clear that by meeting the immediate individual needs of the alcoholic. . ., by disregarding "motivation," by turning to recovering alcoholics rather than to Ph.D.'s for lessons in breaking self-detrimental and more or less involuntary habits, and by inexorably moving patients from dependence upon the general hospital into the treatment system of AA, I was working for the most exciting alcohol program in the world.

    But then came the rub. Fueled by our enthusiasm, I. . . tried to prove our efficacy. Our clinic followed up our first 100 detoxification patients. . . every year for the next 8 years. . . . After initial discharge, only 5 patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment mere no better than the natural history of the disease. (emphasis added)53

Just to chime in here with reality for a moment: psy is misrepresenting Vaillant's findings. More specifcically, he is presenting other people's misrepresentations of his findings.

You truly are batshit insane.  I quoted Vailant DIRECTLY.  Those are HIS WORDS...  NOT interpretations of his words.  HIS words... not that you would ever read enough to know that.  Can't you get it through your thick 12 steppign scull that even AA's defenders admit it doesnt' work!  Vaillant has been trying in futility to prove his faith to be true for some time now and all he's managed to do is prove the critics of AA right.

You wont' even READ the links.  You outright REFUSE ("I don't need to read studies, I've been to many meetings over many years, and know many people who have stayed sober because of it." <-- your words), and yet you have the arrogance to claim that the information on there is somehow false or that the writers have ulterior motives (even if that were true, you're STILL not adressing their research or arguments).  LOL.  All you're proving to everybody here is just how batshit fucking insane you 12 steppers are and just how terrified you are of having your god-inspired truth shat on by the cold hard facts.[/quote]

First of all, you are talking to different guests, i have no problem reading anything. I've never been helped by A.A.

I know you are quoting his words...but out of context with his ACTUAL, complete evaluation of his studies ommitted. Because you are not doing your own research, but simply restating the opinions of others, which they "back up" by selectively quoting and misrepresenting Vaillient's work, that is a predicable problem.

[Anonymous]

It seemed perfectly clear that by meeting the immediate individual needs of the alcoholic. . ., by disregarding "motivation," by turning to recovering alcoholics rather than to Ph.D.'s for lessons in breaking self-detrimental and more or less involuntary habits, and by inexorably moving patients from dependence upon the general hospital into the treatment system of AA, I was working for the most exciting alcohol program in the world.

    But then came the rub. Fueled by our enthusiasm, I. . . tried to prove our efficacy. Our clinic followed up our first 100 detoxification patients. . . every year for the next 8 years. . . . After initial discharge, only 5 patients in the Clinic sample never relapsed to alcoholic drinking, and there is compelling evidence that the results of our treatment mere no better than the natural history of the disease. (emphasis added)53

Just to chime in here with reality for a moment: psy is misrepresenting Vaillant's findings. More specifcically, he is presenting other people's misrepresentations of his findings.

You truly are batshit insane.  I quoted Vailant DIRECTLY.  Those are HIS WORDS...  NOT interpretations of his words.  HIS words... not that you would ever read enough to know that.  Can't you get it through your thick 12 steppign scull that even AA's defenders admit it doesnt' work!  Vaillant has been trying in futility to prove his faith to be true for some time now and all he's managed to do is prove the critics of AA right.

You wont' even READ the links.  You outright REFUSE ("I don't need to read studies, I've been to many meetings over many years, and know many people who have stayed sober because of it." <-- your words), and yet you have the arrogance to claim that the information on there is somehow false or that the writers have ulterior motives (even if that were true, you're STILL not adressing their research or arguments).  LOL.  All you're proving to everybody here is just how batshit fucking insane you 12 steppers are and just how terrified you are of having your god-inspired truth shat on by the cold hard facts.

First of all, you are talking to different guests, i have no problem reading anything. I've never been helped by A.A.

I know you are quoting his words...but out of context with his ACTUAL, complete evaluation of his studies ommitted. Because you are not doing your own research, but simply restating the opinions of others, which they "back up" by selectively quoting and misrepresenting Vaillient's work, that is a predicable problem.[/quote]

[psy]

And AA has treatment programs too (Hazelden, for example). You could make the same argument of AA

A.A. does not have its own residential treatment centers, nor Hazeldon.

“A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes.”

LOL.  Bullshit.  Even when Bill Wilson was alive he was breaking that rule, taking stipends from John D. Rockefeller Jr..  I don't have time right now to go into all of it, but suffice it to say, that particular tradition just just CYA.  AA has it's hands in many pots and vica versa.

A.A. is not a for-profit business so the same argument could not be made (I wasn’t really trying to make an argument, though)

Hazeldon is not “owned” by A.A.
http://www.hazelden.org/

FIrst question: Who publishes AA's textbooks?

Second question: If AA is so "not for profit" why do they go around SUING people who give away their work for free:
http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch12.htm

or google AAWS germany lawsuit

See this pamphlet put out by AAgso.org, an AA "back to basics" group:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-pamphlet2.html

Or visit their website here:

http://aagso.org/ <-  Pro AA, but anti centralized AA website.

Anyway. All this is besides the point of AA's efficacy.  you STILL won't address that, refusing to read what I posted.

I know you are quoting his words...but out of context with his ACTUAL, complete evaluation of his studies ommitted. Because you are not doing your own research, but simply restating the opinions of others, which they "back up" by selectively quoting and misrepresenting Vaillient's work, that is a predicable problem.

How is it misrepresented, and what is your source for stating that?

[Anonymous]

Two years prior to AA I went to all the anti AA websites like silly Secret Agent Orange or Orange Papers.  I love the anti AA websites because they told me what I wanted to hear at the time.  I dreaded the idea of going to AA.  The thought of being brainwashed, controlled, or I was powerless made me sick.  Then, in 2003, I was drinking mouthwash to feel better but, I wasn't powerless not me. I woke up in my own vomit, getting kicked out of peoples homes because of fighting while drunk. Then in May of 03 I woke up and didn't know what day it was.  I was alone, the Alternative recovery centers like SOS, were too far away.  Rational Recover was now charging for help and the Orange Papers just filled the web with complaints of AA but had no solution nor offered help.  I was desperate, I didn't care, I was dieing inside and afraid to live.  There is a meeting just about every hour on the hour in California.  I walked into my first meeting and said I was an alcoholic.  I saw men and woman professionals, lawyers, doctors, salesmen, teacher, and mothers, looking clean, happy, and healthy.  I didn't care about the God thing I would worry about that later.  I wanted to look and feel like them.  I decided to put my prejudice  aside a try it for a year.  I have 3 and 1/2 years sober, I fought every step but, I did them.  I was afraid to mention the anti AA websites when I did, everyone laughed.  when I said I hate Bill W, they laughed and said cool.  I kept trying to share all the stuff I had learned from the anti AA folks.  No one pushed me away like they said they would, no one said I wasn't welcome, like they said they would.  My sponsor said think all you want but, take action. Donald Trump didn't think his way to success.  So, I did, I love my life,  I pay my bills, I go to baseball games, concerts in the park, movies, I speak in front of hundreds of people without fear.  I don't walk in fear, I have bought a new Jeep, received raises, I moved into the apartment of my dreams,  I am more independent because I am not lead by fear.  I have  more friends than I can imagine.  I used the steps to stop drinking, to lose weight, when I am nervous.  Listen there are bad people in any group. ban lawyers, doctors, priest who will molests, teachers who will sleep with students.  There are bad people in AA but the program that I have followed has given me purpose when I had none, friends that are genuine, I laugh so hard I pee my pants.  I help other woman by giving to them what was freely giving to me.  I have never been held against my will.  Ok I had to do the phone list once.  It sucked.  Not much of a cult if you ask me.  We are way to undisciplined to keep others against there will.  The Big book tells me that if one doesn’t want it then please try something else. If AA were a cult then why does the big book say not to bother with a person who is not interested.  Not a very good cult if you ask me.   If your sponsor is abusive then get a new sponsor.  Go to a new meeting. I  know I will look high and low to find what I want to hear rather than what I need to hear.  If AA doesn’t work then find something that does.  That is the truth I was given.   Try AA for a year if it doesn’t work then we will gladly refund your misery.  Good luck gang.

[Ursus]

A.A. does not have its own residential treatment centers, nor Hazeldon.

This is simply not true. Hazelden has several programs, and has been operating them for well over half a century. In fact, Hazelden credits itself with being the progenitor of all residential 12-Step programs.

Joe Gauld (founder of Hyde School) attended one of Hazelden's inpatient programs in 1975, when Halzelden was implementing their most Synanon-inspired methodology, that is, hot seats, group rap, and all... Hazelden had sent reps down to Eagleville Hospital in Pennsylvania to study the trade, Eagleville having had learned said methodology directly from Synanon itself. I personally think Joe had some prior exposure to that methodology, since I attended Hyde prior to that time, and he was already dishing it out then.

For nearly 60 years, Hazelden has been in the business of helping people recover from alcohol and other drug addictions. Hazelden's work in the 1950s and 1960s set the standard and defined the model for all Twelve-Step-based, interdisciplinary treatment programs in operation today. It was Hazelden staff who began teaching the Twelve Steps in a residential setting, and whose ground-breaking work in incorporating psychology and psychiatry, physical health and fitness, emotional and family systems therapies and other approaches, define the "interdisciplinary model" of care.
http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/whyhazelden.page

Hazelden's current programs (some have opened or closed or splintered off during the years; in particular, there was one notorious split in Florida):

• Center City, MN
• Center for Youth and Families, Plymouth, MN
• Newberg, OR
• New York City, NY
• Chicago, IL
• Fellowship Club - St. Paul, MN

Some of these are inpatient, some are out patient; there are also "retreats," etc. at their Renewal Center.

[try another castle]

I have more friends than I can imagine

Then you must have about four hundred friends, or you're just not that imaginative.


lol.. This isn't a slam on you. I just always chuckle at that term when it is used inaccurately. People underestimate how much they can really imagine.

[Anonymous]

A.A. does not have its own residential treatment centers, nor Hazeldon.

This is simply not true. Hazelden has several programs, and has been operating them for well over half a century. In fact, Hazelden credits itself with being the progenitor of all residential 12-Step programs.

Joe Gauld (founder of Hyde School) attended one of Hazelden's inpatient programs in 1975, when Halzelden was implementing their most Synanon-inspired methodology, that is, hot seats, group rap, and all... Hazelden had sent reps down to Eagleville Hospital in Pennsylvania to study the trade, Eagleville having had learned said methodology directly from Synanon itself. I personally think Joe had some prior exposure to that methodology, since I attended Hyde prior to that time, and he was already dishing it out then.

For nearly 60 years, Hazelden has been in the business of helping people recover from alcohol and other drug addictions. Hazelden's work in the 1950s and 1960s set the standard and defined the model for all Twelve-Step-based, interdisciplinary treatment programs in operation today. It was Hazelden staff who began teaching the Twelve Steps in a residential setting, and whose ground-breaking work in incorporating psychology and psychiatry, physical health and fitness, emotional and family systems therapies and other approaches, define the "interdisciplinary model" of care.
http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/whyhazelden.page

Hazelden's current programs (some have opened or closed or splintered off during the years; in particular, there was one notorious split in Florida):

• Center City, MN
• Center for Youth and Families, Plymouth, MN
• Newberg, OR
• New York City, NY
• Chicago, IL
• Fellowship Club - St. Paul, MN

Some of these are inpatient, some are out patient; there are also "retreats," etc. at their Renewal Center.

No A.A. does not A.A. does not own Hazeldon. A.A. is a not for profit organization. All of its holdings must be publicly disclosed. Hazeldon is not listed. Asses its assets and finacial information yourself


Are you implying that A.A. secretly owns Hazeldon? That it is profiting off of Hazeldon? Do you realize that A.A. doesn’t earn any profits because it is a not-for profit org.? Do you understand what a not for profit org is?

If you feel A.A. is profiting off of Hazelton, then inform the IRS. They tend to be fussy about that sort of tax fraud.

Who opened H., or what modalities it has or has not been influenced by is a separate issue.


On the other hand, Stanton Peel’s makes a profit off of his center, personally.

http://www.stgregoryctr.com/

[Anonymous]

Two years prior to AA I went to all the anti AA websites like silly Secret Agent Orange or Orange Papers.  I love the anti AA websites because they told me what I wanted to hear at the time.  I dreaded the idea of going to AA.  The thought of being brainwashed, controlled, or I was powerless made me sick.  Then, in 2003, I was drinking mouthwash to feel better but, I wasn't powerless not me. I woke up in my own vomit, getting kicked out of peoples homes because of fighting while drunk. Then in May of 03 I woke up and didn't know what day it was.  I was alone, the Alternative recovery centers like SOS, were too far away.  Rational Recover was now charging for help and the Orange Papers just filled the web with complaints of AA but had no solution nor offered help.  I was desperate, I didn't care, I was dieing inside and afraid to live.  There is a meeting just about every hour on the hour in California.  I walked into my first meeting and said I was an alcoholic.  I saw men and woman professionals, lawyers, doctors, salesmen, teacher, and mothers, looking clean, happy, and healthy.  I didn't care about the God thing I would worry about that later.  I wanted to look and feel like them.  I decided to put my prejudice  aside a try it for a year.  I have 3 and 1/2 years sober, I fought every step but, I did them.  I was afraid to mention the anti AA websites when I did, everyone laughed.  when I said I hate Bill W, they laughed and said cool.  I kept trying to share all the stuff I had learned from the anti AA folks.  No one pushed me away like they said they would, no one said I wasn't welcome, like they said they would.  My sponsor said think all you want but, take action. Donald Trump didn't think his way to success.  So, I did, I love my life,  I pay my bills, I go to baseball games, concerts in the park, movies, I speak in front of hundreds of people without fear.  I don't walk in fear, I have bought a new Jeep, received raises, I moved into the apartment of my dreams,  I am more independent because I am not lead by fear.  I have  more friends than I can imagine.  I used the steps to stop drinking, to lose weight, when I am nervous.  Listen there are bad people in any group. ban lawyers, doctors, priest who will molests, teachers who will sleep with students.  There are bad people in AA but the program that I have followed has given me purpose when I had none, friends that are genuine, I laugh so hard I pee my pants.  I help other woman by giving to them what was freely giving to me.  I have never been held against my will.  Ok I had to do the phone list once.  It sucked.  Not much of a cult if you ask me.  We are way to undisciplined to keep others against there will.  The Big book tells me that if one doesn’t want it then please try something else. If AA were a cult then why does the big book say not to bother with a person who is not interested.  Not a very good cult if you ask me.   If your sponsor is abusive then get a new sponsor.  Go to a new meeting. I  know I will look high and low to find what I want to hear rather than what I need to hear.  If AA doesn’t work then find something that does.  That is the truth I was given.   Try AA for a year if it doesn’t work then we will gladly refund your misery.  Good luck gang.

No one is really saying that a.a. is a cult at this point, i hope. Now people seem to be arguing over whether or not it works. I'm glad you received help. Are you a program survivor?