The current "My teen wont forgive me" thread on ST

[Anonymous]

here is another interesting study about child abuse. The information seems out of date, but it is rather insightful:

http://tinyurl.com/y9lyow



My point here is this:

Child abuse isn't the sole creation of the United States of America. George Bush Jr. isn't head of some world plot to export and franchise WWASP all over the god damn world. If some crazy broad in the UK wants to ship her kid off to a teen torture center in the USA then more power to her.

I don't give damn if she does or doesn't.

If she can't get her head far enough out of her ass to find a place to abuse her kid in the UK then we here in the USA will be happy to deliver for her.

We saved their asses in two world wars I am sure we can save this lady's ass in her desire to have her child beaten like damn Alabama huntin' dog.

To this anon lady.. If you really really want to have your kid beaten and abused you  go ahead and PM me.

I know a really fucked up place that doesn't even get mentioned here on Fornits but every once in a blue moon. I'll give you the details you need so that you can get your kid so beaten black and blue he will shit bruises for a month.

I'll PM you as & when I can register, am waiting for validation

I don't need to send any of my boys away to have them driven away and the crap scared out of them, I know people who would do it for me - fact is it's not what I want

I'm not some 'crazy broad' I'm a very intelligent person, coping with a hell of alot, with both issues from my own past & the terrible fear that my own kids are going down some truly horrible path

However i do understand why some parents are that desperate to stop their kids abusing themselves that they will go to these lengths, I'm sure you'll find they have all tried everything else possible - be sure to tell me where this place is just in case I need to contact them though ;-)

Well it's good you don't want to send them away.  Your kids will appreciate that in the long run.  It seams you are coping with fear.  Fear that your kids will go down a miserable path and their heads will explode and they will be dead or insane or in jail.  You were posting on ST.  What exactly did  you expect?  That site's whole purpose is to scare the shit out of parents so they will think they need program.  No matter what your kid's problem is, they will always need program on that site.  You do realize the whole industry, from Ed consultants to the schools themselves are completely unregulated in most states.

What have your kids been up to exactly?

You hit the nail on the head, it is fear I live with, for exactly those reasons....and probably due to having losyt my brother at a very young age through alcohol abuse, that was probably the harshest thing about the whole screwed up life we lead.

Yes I am well aware that th Industry is about getting my money - which is why i was so shocked that The Aspen Group asked me to put my son on a plane that night so they could meet him at the airport the next morning (No lady that ain't going to happen) However I do believe some kids may end up dead or in a very bad way if they aren't sent away, I know my own life would be a lot worse if I hadn't been put into care, as I say, it was horrible and I am scarred by it, but that's nothing compared to the scars I received from home life - I write not only as an exhausted p[arent but also as a still very angry child!

What do my kids do? Shoplift, drink (vodka) skip school, smoke weed, do other drugs, intimidate residents in the area, vandalise, graffiti, set fires to everything, steal from me and their sister constantly (I have to carry a plastic bag with all alcohol, money, cigarettes in it) and that's no joke, I even have to take it to the bathroom with me or they'll strip me clean, I have been attacked by both the 19 yr old and 14 yr old, it's probably just easier to tell you what they don't do.

[psy]

Every member of the system treats me as if I'm insane for daring to ask them to do their jobs! It's not exactly a hidden secret here in the UK, our social services are rubbish, they aren't interested unless you are beating your kid to death, and even then they don't help you, they just prosecute (actually I am with the prosecution thing) But hey.....when a parent has spent years & years begging, pleading, threatening, blackmailing just to get a simple statement done and each time a file is opened, no-one calls or visits and the file is then closed again, you tell me, is it me or them? Have you any idea how exhausted I really am? I deal with daily life and the police, the school, the suspensions, the complaining neighbours, the irate victims on the doorstep threatening me, every single day of my life, quite often several times a day....yes this part of it is about me! I can't be a good parent all the time I have been awake most the night because they have misbehaved in soje way or won't come in, or won't sleep - it has absolutely nothing to do with the way I am towards them when they are here, I have tried arranging nights out, nights in, family evenings, but hell no, they'd rather be on the streets comitting crime and getting stoned/drunk, I can't believe the mentality that goes behind 'always blame the parents' just sometimes, we do everything we can and still get it slapped back in our faces

It happens.  You can do everything right and you kids can still screw up.  It's nobody's fault.  Some people just have to learn the hard way.  For the most part, it's out of your hands.  You can't force them to change.  Here's what i suggest:

Volunteering them for some sort of charity.  Seeing how others suffer and helping them, can help your kids have a sense of purpose, as if they're doing something good in the world.  Having nothing to do is asking for trouble.  If they won't go, force them.
Weeping.  Tell them how upset you are about their behavior.
Ask them why they do what they do.

As far as the hash and alcohol are concerned: most kids do this at some point in growing up.  Most just grow out of it.  I don't suggest you ignore it either.  Just state that you don't want it in the house, and if they every feel things are getting out of control, to tell you about it.  If they get into coke / heroin / meth.  Then you have a different class of problem entirely.  But at least if you are open with them about things, and they feel they can talk to you, you can help them before it's too late.  Don't condemn them for experimentation.  Talk frankly about things and tell them your concerns.  Institute a dialogue that does not involve condemnation.

I'm sure Deborah could have some suggestions.

I am just a genuine mother who really does want the best for her kids, both now & in the future, and I am reaching out for help on the internet because there is nothing in the way of support here

Think what you like, you're going to anyway and I have a skin as thick as a rhino

Sorry about the typo's, am sitting in the dark

Parents often aren't extremely well though of here because there are a lot of kids who are bitter about their experiences and there ARE parents who truly do not care about the welfare of their kids.  It appears you aren't one of them.  If you take anything from this site, realize this: programs won't help.  It's an unregulated industry.

I'm not a parent, which is why i suggest Deborah step in with some suggestions.  I'm sure TSW might have some good suggestions as well.

[psy]

What do my kids do? Shoplift, drink (vodka) skip school, smoke weed, do other drugs, intimidate residents in the area, vandalise, graffiti, set fires to everything, steal from me and their sister constantly (I have to carry a plastic bag with all alcohol, money, cigarettes in it) and that's no joke, I even have to take it to the bathroom with me or they'll strip me clean, I have been attacked by both the 19 yr old and 14 yr old, it's probably just easier to tell you what they don't do.

It sounds like they're pretty bad.  Attacking is out of line and they need to know that.  Tell them if it happens again you will call the cops. (and do it if they attack you again)

Hmm.  Well they sound like little ruffians all right.  I'm guessing you live in a fairly poisonous area.  I'm also guessing you work full time and they have a lot of free time.  In my opinion, that's what you want to stop.  Also, my suggestions in my previous post might help in that area (open dialogue, volunteering).  Find out how serious things are and promise them no consequences for confessing things to you (and be true to that).  If there is a serious hard drug problem rehab might be an option(rehab, 30 day, not program).  I wouldn't suggest forcing it on any of them though.  They have to want to change.

Ask them what they want in life.  My guess is they aren't thinking much about the future.  Talk to them on their level, it's the only way they will listen.  Ask them what they want from you, and tell them what you want from them.  Maybe you can come to a compromise.

[Anonymous]

Thank you so much for the constructive thoughts

we are a very open family, I have always talked to my kids form a very young age about the danger of drugs, safe sex, crime - I have also taught them to always stop & think how they might feel if what they do to others happened to htem, or to me, how would it make them feel?

My children have always been encouraged to talk openly to me about anything and everything, without me going into a screeching frenzy over it, I still do this every single day when they finally arrive home (If they arrive home) I ask if they need to talk about their day, ask what they've been up to, who with, can i smell alcohol or drugs on them......I nEVER shout at them over things, i'd rather they weren't afraid to talk to me and start to back off...

I call the police every time, they arent interested most the time, when the 14 yr old chased me up the stairs brandashing a baseball bat at me they said "Oh well we'll leave you to it then" they have also told me not to call them when my sons go missing as they are not here to babysit my kids

There is no way on this earth they would do anything voluntarily, they've been kicked out of every club and activity I've put them into, and I can't force them as they just run away if I try to set anything up

Again rehab has to be a GP's referal and we all know that story

I'm just so desperate to help my kids back on the straight & narrow, but I really cannot get the help to do so, all I have is threats of prosecution and angry ppl shouting at me for their behaviour, i have cried, ignored them, begged, taked and pleaded with them to stop behaving like this but they just shrug their shoulders and say they don't really care what they put me through, and although we live in a small village whichh is nice, there are some undesireables here which they seem to be attracted to.

I actually gave up my job to work for myself so that I can work around them and what they need, but it's made no difference, I hardly ever see them, they just wak out after throwing some swear words at me and I may not see them for hours or days, depends what mood they're in

[Anonymous]

Kick the 19-year-old out of your house. 18 is the age of majority in Britain isn't it? Tell him that he has a week to find a place to live and that you're not going to keep a home for what he does anymore. He's an adult. Treat him like one.

Don't keep asking your kids what they're up to. You already know. Don't bother with that anymore.

I think most of this has to do with the absence of a father figure in their lives. At some level they think that what they're doing is what they should be doing. They never learned any counterexamples, and instead have aligned themselves with the 'thug' elements of youth culture. This is an old, old story.

Again, step back, stop whatever your habits are towards them (something you're doing, that you're not telling us about, is really pissing them off- even violent kids don't go after their mothers with baseball bats unless they're either literally insane or they have a reason), and accept that they've gone and grown themselves up in a direction you don't like.

If you're having problems with them stealing alcohol and cigarettes, throw the damn things away and don't buy any more. You've "tried everything", have you tried that? If your kids see you drinking and smoking, what do you think they're going to learn to do, and why would you get pissed off when they do it?

[psy]

Kick the 19-year-old out of your house. 18 is the age of majority in Britain isn't it? Tell him that he has a week to find a place to live and that you're not going to keep a home for what he does anymore. He's an adult. Treat him like one.

Milk might have a point here.  As much as it really rubs against my normal opinion on this issue there is a welfare system in Britain.  If he's a bad influence on the rest of your kids it might set an example.

Don't keep asking your kids what they're up to. You already know. Don't bother with that anymore.

Again.  There might be some wisdom in this as well.  If your kids don't care when you act like you give a shit, maybe if you act like you don't care anymore it will make them wonder why.  I don't know if it's a good idea but it sounds like you've tried mostly everything else.

I think most of this has to do with the absence of a father figure in their lives. At some level they think that what they're doing is what they should be doing. They never learned any counterexamples, and instead have aligned themselves with the 'thug' elements of youth culture. This is an old, old story.

Again, step back, stop whatever your habits are towards them (something you're doing, that you're not telling us about, is really pissing them off- even violent kids don't go after their mothers with baseball bats unless they're either literally insane or they have a reason), and accept that they've gone and grown themselves up in a direction you don't like.

I think milk is right about the father figure thing.

And like i said, he posts what everybody else is thinking.  Your kids obviously have a deep resentment towards you.  Surely there must be a reason why.  It may not be a good reason, maybe a perceived reason, but there is a reason.  Have you asked them why? do you know why?

If you're having problems with them stealing alcohol and cigarettes, throw the damn things away and don't buy any more. You've "tried everything", have you tried that? If your kids see you drinking and smoking, what do you think they're going to learn to do, and why would you get pissed off when they do it?

I aggree with him on this.  Except for the cigarettes.  I smoke and don't think that in your stressful condition it would be a good idea to try and quit.

[psy]

Thank you so much for the constructive thoughts

we are a very open family, I have always talked to my kids form a very young age about the danger of drugs, safe sex, crime - I have also taught them to always stop & think how they might feel if what they do to others happened to htem, or to me, how would it make them feel?

My children have always been encouraged to talk openly to me about anything and everything, without me going into a screeching frenzy over it, I still do this every single day when they finally arrive home (If they arrive home) I ask if they need to talk about their day, ask what they've been up to, who with, can i smell alcohol or drugs on them......I nEVER shout at them over things, i'd rather they weren't afraid to talk to me and start to back off...

I call the police every time, they arent interested most the time, when the 14 yr old chased me up the stairs brandashing a baseball bat at me they said "Oh well we'll leave you to it then" they have also told me not to call them when my sons go missing as they are not here to babysit my kids

Your pigs really sound like pigs.

There is no way on this earth they would do anything voluntarily, they've been kicked out of every club and activity I've put them into, and I can't force them as they just run away if I try to set anything up

Hmm.  There has to be somewhere that wouldn't kick them out.

Again rehab has to be a GP's referal and we all know that story

I'm just so desperate to help my kids back on the straight & narrow, but I really cannot get the help to do so, all I have is threats of prosecution and angry ppl shouting at me for their behaviour, i have cried, ignored them, begged, taked and pleaded with them to stop behaving like this but they just shrug their shoulders and say they don't really care what they put me through, and although we live in a small village whichh is nice, there are some undesireables here which they seem to be attracted to.

I actually gave up my job to work for myself so that I can work around them and what they need, but it's made no difference, I hardly ever see them, they just wak out after throwing some swear words at me and I may not see them for hours or days, depends what mood they're in

Well.  Your GP sounds like an asshole.  I can't remember if they're assigned or if you can choose.  If possible you might want to try and change your GP.

You could also play hardball (absolute last resort).  Find out about the undesirables they hang around with, tell the neighbors, and go as a group to the police demanding something be done.  If you can, get evidence on them.  I suggest, however, doing it quietly so as not to provoke vengeful hooligans.

You could also do this(second to last resort):  Set a curfew.  Every night, at a specific time, lock the door.  Tell your kids you will do this.  Every morning, unlock it.  If they miss curfew, tough.  Don't let them in.  Buy earplugs and go to sleep.

[Anonymous]

Because as an adult I am entitled to smoke and/or drink if I so wish?? :-?

I made that mistake and don't want the same for them, they are very young to be smoking.
I don't drink very often, in fact it's pretty rare, but if I do fancy a drink why shouldn't I be able to relax in the evening and have one, most of the alcohol in the house is usually left over from birthday presents or xmas etc......

i agree about the  19 yr old, that is already in place, the aw says I have to give him a month's notice to move, so |i am moving house without him

As for the 14 yr old attacking me, that is what I am trying to say, he has a mental health problem, probably Bi polar, the reason he chased me with a baseball bat is because weed makes him extremely aggressive, and I'd caught him seconds beforehand smoking it and told hijm it was taking the piss to actually do it in my house, he wasn't impressed at being caught out - but as i can't get anyone to actually see him I can't know or seek treatment - you tell me what I'm doing to piss them off so much that they'd put me through a living hell every single day of my life, I dread the phone ringing, the door knocking, it is constant, but i am at an absolute loss as to what i can ever have doen to piss them off so much that they have such little regard for me....my kids have everything, materially and emmotionally, I have always been there for them and loved them unconditionally (which is why I want them to be happy)

I also agree the lack of male role model hasn't helped much, but I can't help a death, or that the male role model of the 19 yr old has just made things worse, but honestly they are like it with or without him here

I cannot and will not just accept they've grown up into a direction I don't like, i am their mother, I have a duty and love them enough to do what it takes to protect them from making seriously bad choices, i will never give up the fight, they are 13 and 14 yrs old! They don't know how to make decisions that could seriously affect their futures!! No, I'm sorry, I won't do that

[Anonymous]

Heh Psy, i locked the 14 yr old out for 4 nights once using that same method, not in by 10.00 and the doors get locked, I am now under threat of prosecution from social services for neglecting my child (wtf??) and was told I am never to do that again, so I have tio allow him to stab me or beat me or whatever, he can walk out on a grounding and there are no consequences because i am not alowed to hand them out

No to changing the GP - I live in a rural area and there is only one small surgery, another good reason to move me thinks, my GP is a total arse

[Anonymous]

Because as an adult I am entitled to smoke and/or drink if I so wish?? :-?

It is this attitude that leads down a one-way path to ruin. Children learn by example. Period.

I made that mistake and don't want the same for them, they are very young to be smoking.
I don't drink very often, in fact it's pretty rare, but if I do fancy a drink why shouldn't I be able to relax in the evening and have one, most of the alcohol in the house is usually left over from birthday presents or xmas etc......

Oh my! Is that justification I hear? I do believe that is, mixed with a twinge of fear. You've tried everything for your children.. except giving up the bottle.

the male role model of the 19 yr old has just made things worse, but honestly they are like it with or without him here

Do you really think that his presence at that exact moment is going to affect your children's behavior? Do you even know what a role model is? Just because he might not be there at that exact instant doesn't mean he isn't still affecting his siblings.

I keep thinking that genetics might have something to do with this. Who was their father? Was he anywhere near as nasty, brutal, etc as they are?

They don't know how to make decisions that could seriously affect their futures!!

Don't you understand yet that they already are?

I'd caught him seconds beforehand smoking it and told hijm it was taking the piss to actually do it in my house, he wasn't impressed at being caught out

See, now this I can visualize.

You: "Oh bugger it's really taking the piss now, you're smoking pot inside my house."

Him (thinking): Sod off, cunt.

You: "Do you have any idea what I've done for you? What I've sacrificed for you? And now you're going to go ahead and"

Him (reaching for baseball bat): "Shut UP you miserable bitch."

You: Oh shit- *run run*

I'll end this with a simple fact: Your children hate you. Do I need to tattoo this on your forehead in mirror writing, so when you wake up every morning you can read it and be reminded? They seriously, literally, personally, fiercely hate you. In fact, from what I gather, the only reason you're not dead yet is because they know they really will go to jail if they kill you.

Because odds are, you're every bit as sanctimonious I'm-just-trying-to-help with them as you are on this board, and that above all else is making them furious.

[psy]

Because as an adult I am entitled to smoke and/or drink if I so wish?? :-?

I made that mistake and don't want the same for them, they are very young to be smoking.
I don't drink very often, in fact it's pretty rare, but if I do fancy a drink why shouldn't I be able to relax in the evening and have one, most of the alcohol in the house is usually left over from birthday presents or xmas etc......

i agree about the  19 yr old, that is already in place, the aw says I have to give him a month's notice to move, so |i am moving house without him

As for the 14 yr old attacking me, that is what I am trying to say, he has a mental health problem, probably Bi polar, the reason he chased me with a baseball bat is because weed makes him extremely aggressive, and I'd caught him seconds beforehand smoking it and told hijm it was taking the piss to actually do it in my house, he wasn't impressed at being caught out - but as i can't get anyone to actually see him I can't know or seek treatment - you tell me what I'm doing to piss them off so much that they'd put me through a living hell every single day of my life, I dread the phone ringing, the door knocking, it is constant, but i am at an absolute loss as to what i can ever have done to piss them off so much that they have such little regard for me....my kids have everything, materially and emotionally, I have always been there for them and loved them unconditionally (which is why I want them to be happy)

Well you might ask them why they are so angry with you.  I find it really odd that weed makes him aggressive.  Are you sure it's not laced with something?

If he is Bipolar i'd truly recommend getting him to a shrink.  Take him to the fucking GP and raise a stink until he aggrees to refer a shrink.  Don't take no for an answer.  Threaten to report him.  Whatever it takes.  Medication might help.  he might be trying to self-medicate with the weed.  

I also agree the lack of male role model hasn't helped much, but I can't help a death, or that the male role model of the 19 yr old has just made things worse, but honestly they are like it with or without him here

I cannot and will not just accept they've grown up into a direction I don't like, i am their mother, I have a duty and love them enough to do what it takes to protect them from making seriously bad choices, i will never give up the fight, they are 13 and 14 yrs old! They don't know how to make decisions that could seriously affect their futures!! No, I'm sorry, I won't do that

I never said give up the fight.  I said pretend to give up the fight.  See what happens.  Tell them: "i dont' give a fuck anymore what you do. so you go off and do whatever the hell you want."  They will probably look fairly puzzled and maybe start wondering what they've done now to bring you to that point.

Milk is abrasive but he does have a point.  Your kids seem to hate you.  Ask them why.  It seems as if (not necessarily is) you aren't telling us everything.  And that's your right, but after all, the internet affords a great deal of anonymity.  If there is something you're not mentioning, it might help things make more sense.

And if alcohol is dangerous for your kids.  Throw it out. If you can't... well that's another issue entirely.  I find it unlikely that you go through the trouble of carrying a bottle around in a bag if it's just a Christmas present.    It would be more convenient to throw it out if you don't drink it.  The picture just doesn't fit.

If you have a drinking problem, well that might be the source of the resentment, or part of the cause.  Your kids might not only be learning from exaple, but also might not respect you if they perceive you as a "drunk".  But the above is just a "seems as if" again.

I think it is a good idea to move though.  Try to introduce your kid to new friends where you go.  He might not like them, but then again, he might.

[Anonymous]

Because as an adult I am entitled to smoke and/or drink if I so wish?? :-?

It is this attitude that leads down a one-way path to ruin. Children learn by example. Period.

I made that mistake and don't want the same for them, they are very young to be smoking.
I don't drink very often, in fact it's pretty rare, but if I do fancy a drink why shouldn't I be able to relax in the evening and have one, most of the alcohol in the house is usually left over from birthday presents or xmas etc......

Oh my! Is that justification I hear? I do believe that is, mixed with a twinge of fear. You've tried everything for your children.. except giving up the bottle.

the male role model of the 19 yr old has just made things worse, but honestly they are like it with or without him here

Do you really think that his presence at that exact moment is going to affect your children's behavior? Do you even know what a role model is? Just because he might not be there at that exact instant doesn't mean he isn't still affecting his siblings.

I keep thinking that genetics might have something to do with this. Who was their father? Was he anywhere near as nasty, brutal, etc as they are?

They don't know how to make decisions that could seriously affect their futures!!

Don't you understand yet that they already are?

I'd caught him seconds beforehand smoking it and told hijm it was taking the piss to actually do it in my house, he wasn't impressed at being caught out

See, now this I can visualize.

You: "Oh bugger it's really taking the piss now, you're smoking pot inside my house."

Him (thinking): Sod off, cunt.

You: "Do you have any idea what I've done for you? What I've sacrificed for you? And now you're going to go ahead and"

Him (reaching for baseball bat): "Shut UP you miserable bitch."

You: Oh shit- *run run*

I'll end this with a simple fact: Your children hate you. Do I need to tattoo this on your forehead in mirror writing, so when you wake up every morning you can read it and be reminded? They seriously, literally, personally, fiercely hate you. In fact, from what I gather, the only reason you're not dead yet is because they know they really will go to jail if they kill you.

Because odds are, you're every bit as sanctimonious I'm-just-trying-to-help with them as you are on this board, and that above all else is making them furious.

MGDP, you're a complete fucking asshole.

[Anonymous]

Ma'am: no your kids do not hate you. If they did they would of left already, that's what people do when they can't stand other people. Your kids are hurting, as you know and see and I can tell you are in pain because of that. I have no better advice than what has already been given on both forums, other than to say I hope you get through it. I was one of those teen boys too, and did worse things than your kids. They are growing up and defining their manhood in a unhealthy way but eventually they will get through it. Even the worst teenager who seems like they are on a path straight to hell, eventually matures. Hopefuly your oldest wil get his shit together and start helping out with the other boys, that seems like the best option because it seems like too much to handle by yourself. I am never surprised at how many program parents are single mothers with multiple sons, who are aggressive. It's easy to understand why you would want someone like that out of your house with no father at home. I want to say again, your kids don't hate you. They are hurting and miss their dad and trying to do their best to deal with things they don't even understand yet. They probably cannot even identify what they are feeling or why at this point. Your kids will remember the shit you are going through now and one day apoloogize and hopefully recipricate in the form of taking care of you if you ever need that. You are one of the parents out there trying, in the trenches not taking the easy way out and you defeinitely deserve some credit for that. Good luck.

[White Cracker Man]

Yeah, I have chatted with Exhausted and she is certainly a very, nice person. I suggested she come over to Fornits and take a look around. She is most definitely not like the majority of ST posters.She just feels hopeless with the lack of resources in the United Kingdom. I told her props for not shipping her son to ASPEN.I told her that if she had the proper resources in the United Kingdom, she might not be even thinking about  any program.

[Anonymous]

It is this attitude that leads down a one-way path to ruin.


Oh my! Is that justification I hear? I do believe that is, mixed with a twinge of fear. You've tried everything for your children.. except giving up the bottle.


Do you really think that his presence at that exact moment is going to affect your children's behavior? Do you even know what a role model is? Just because he might not be there at that exact instant doesn't mean he isn't still affecting his siblings.

I keep thinking that genetics might have something to do with this. Who was their father? Was he anywhere near as nasty, brutal, etc as they are?


Don't you understand yet that they already are?

See, now this I can visualize.

You: "Oh bugger it's really taking the piss now, you're smoking pot inside my house."

Him (thinking): Sod off, cunt.

You: "Do you have any idea what I've done for you? What I've sacrificed for you? And now you're going to go ahead and"

Him (reaching for baseball bat): "Shut UP you miserable bitch."

You: Oh shit- *run run*

I'll end this with a simple fact: Your children hate you. Do I need to tattoo this on your forehead in mirror writing, so when you wake up every morning you can read it and be reminded? They seriously, literally, personally, fiercely hate you. In fact, from what I gather, the only reason you're not dead yet is because they know they really will go to jail if they kill you.

Because odds are, you're every bit as sanctimonious I'm-just-trying-to-help with them as you are on this board, and that above all else is making them furious.

You would have made a great seminar facilitator for WWASPS. They use the same self righteous, pretend-to-care, tear-you-apart strategy you do!