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Author Topic: The Fallen  (Read 33014 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #120 on: October 23, 2006, 01:59:42 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
You say... "Why else would I speak so passionately about such a thing. It's about honor, plain and simple. There is no honor in the half assed recognition of the tip of the iceberg based on information that is rumored to be true and is questionable at best."


What makes you an expert on this issue? Honoring dead people who were victims of it by victims of it surely is very honorable. If there's scores of survivors of it who "pay their respects" to those who are gone forever, then why give them a bunch of shit for actually DOING something about it?  :idea:  Stop acting like a coward and do something "honorable", otherwise just leave us alone to remember these folks as we see fit.

On the one hand we have those that reason, "Let's do something to commemorate the dead, even though our assessment is incomplete and inaccurate, and who cares what their families think about it... ::noway::

..and then we have those who are not crazy about the idea of a premature outcome that would inevitably result here by uindertaking this endeavor unprofessionally. Their caution show the proper honor and respect, and should not be mislabeled as cowardice.  ::nod::
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Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #121 on: October 23, 2006, 02:01:52 PM »
Quote
Their caution show*

*shows
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Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2006, 02:08:59 PM »
Quote from: ""Us""
On the one hand we have those that reason, "Let's do something to commemorate the dead, even though our assessment is incomplete and inaccurate, and who cares what their families think about it... ::noway::

And more importantly, the anon makes a good point that they personally wouldn't like their name mentioned by the people who used to "used to humiliate, restrain, and belittle" them. Even if it wasn't the exact same people, I understand this person's reasoning about it. They're just speaking their mind here, and if you are so sure about the ~veracity and righteousness of what you are doing it should bother you....  :roll:
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Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #123 on: October 23, 2006, 02:10:35 PM »
Quote
it should* bother you....

*shouldn't :smokin:
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Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #124 on: October 23, 2006, 03:07:52 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
What makes you an expert on this issue? Honoring dead people who were victims of it by victims of it surely is very honorable. If there's scores of survivors of it who "pay their respects" to those who are gone forever, then why give them a bunch of shit for actually DOING something about it?  :idea:  Stop acting like a coward and do something "honorable", otherwise just leave us alone to remember these folks as we see fit.


An expert on the issue?  Who is claiming expertise on such a subject?  I am saying that I have subjectively attempted the futile attempt that you now seek to accomplish.  I am not giving anyone shit about anything aside to say that  I see it as the epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data.  

You call me a "coward"?  Go fuck yourself, ace.  From my side of the street, I am speaking a voice for the few that I personally knew and continue to remember, from before, during, and after the program.  I am quite certain the few I have in mind would not wish to be specifically associated with this endeavor.  I am certain their families would feel the same.

The thought of having a memorial is a noble and commendable thought.  My only stance from the start has been that it is a greater honor to those now deceased to be recognized as a collective, rather than to specifically recognize a minute fraction based upon secondhand and unreliable information.

You remember your people your way, and I'll remember mine in my way.  I agree to disagree.  I won't be in attendance (or maybe I will).  It is silly for me to banter back and fourth on a such a subject after I have tried my best to be articulate and clear in stating my perspective.  

In closing, I hope there are others out there that agree with the notion that it is the  epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by specifically ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data.
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Offline starry-eyed pirate

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The Fallen
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2006, 03:35:45 PM »
Look, we just want to have a simple get together of survivors and sympathetic supporters who feel the need to acknowledge the grief and the loss of the people we knew and shared a struggle with.  People who were our friends and brothers.  We are not perfect... Far from it,... I reckon.  We are doing what we can and what we feel is right.  I am also against reading out names of the fallen without verification.(I will say though that most war memorials are pro'ly incomplete to one degree or another and have their share of MIAs too, where the information cannot be verified)  Anyway I'm glad we're discussin this.

I've told the story on here and I'm sure it's been read about how I learned of my friends death, who was a teacher of great lessons to me.  How I was told of his death and then left alone in the middle of group.  I couldn't tell anyone how I felt.  He was a true leader to me.  A great loss.

I've told the story of another friends death...

I've told so many fucked up stories on here...

I am takin in what you're sayin friend.  Like I said before, how 'bout we don't read any names but just allow people to speak freely.  Like I knew Steve and Glenn and Jim and Dale all pretty well and of course there are others who aren't quite dead but fare only so well.  It's not even just about the dead.  It's about all the loss; of time and direction and relationships too.  My world was taken away from me and I've never been the same.  They sowed confusion into my young mind.  Crippled my srtrength when I was just about to need it most.  Took from me everything that I was and left me without my senses.  I know survivors who live like ghosts.  $tr8 was a monstrous demon that ate my friends.  Look here.  You can still see the marks on me...
« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 10:37:06 PM by Guest »
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If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline starry-eyed pirate

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The Fallen
« Reply #126 on: October 23, 2006, 03:48:37 PM »
And I hope you do come, even if you just want to hang back or whatever.  I would like to meet you, even though you think I'm a Viet-cong Bozo of some sort.
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If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #127 on: October 23, 2006, 05:44:45 PM »
Quote from: ""starry-eyed pirate""
I would like to meet you, even though you think I'm a Viet-cong Bozo of some sort.


I don't think you are anything of the sort, Starry.  You are one that I tend to lend an ear to as you do likewise with me.  

I do believe that "the list" will live on long past the memorial and questionable data will no doubt continue to be compiled and treated as factual information by the casual reader....I remember what it was like when I first stumbled across information as a newbie years ago.  

If so, it would be nice if the powers that be at least acknowledge that the list is compiled from possible/probable less than accurate data which is gleaned for the most part from second hand information.  The list will obviously never be complete nor accurate and will always will be an evolving work in progress that fails to acknowledge thousands.  If the casual reader is aware of this, all is well.  I just think it's bad practice to set off on an insurmountable task that misrepresents the breadth and depth of the vast numbers of those no longer with us.  I happen to think a list is  counterproductive as it dishonors many more than it honors.  

I think the compilation of a centralized listing of the dead from $tr8s is much different than a few program vets gathering and recognizing old friends.  Possibly, this is where things got hazy for me.  For the aforementioned, you have my apology.

Since I have been there before, have regrets, and have since learned that my idealistic venture was as futile as counting the grains of sand on Neptune,  I mistakingly thought I was the candidate to open my big mouth on the issue.  My apologies for possibly stepping in where I should not have.  It is no longer my project and there will likely be dozens that attempt similiar lists in the future.  I am no one to police or even to share my opinion on such activity only because in my mind "I have been there and done that".  This is where I have strayed and am wrong.  My desire to honor ALL those that have passed was greater than the fact that I know better to speak up here.  

In closing , just know that if I hadn't made the mistakes I have in the past, I wouldn't be so passionate about this very issue.  It struck a nerve and this thread got my kneejerk reaction.

You remember yours, I'll remember mine, and NO ONE WILL BE FORGOTTEN.

Starry, you are cool as they come and I have never read a post of yours (and yup, I've read 'em all, I've been here from the very beginning) that I had contention with.  Stay real.
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Offline starry-eyed pirate

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The Fallen
« Reply #128 on: October 23, 2006, 07:05:02 PM »
Whoa.  You knock me back...
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If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline starry-eyed pirate

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« Reply #129 on: October 23, 2006, 07:08:08 PM »
...it's dark out.  I'm drinkin my yuengling lagers...You're not wrong.  You have many good things to say(write, really).  Thankyou for the compliment.  I appreciate all the perspective you've given me, concerning the list and the memorial itself.  I'm glad you spoke up.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2006, 10:59:24 AM by Guest »
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If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline starry-eyed pirate

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The Fallen
« Reply #130 on: October 23, 2006, 07:31:02 PM »
I'll be rememberin yours as I'm rememberin mine.
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If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline starry-eyed pirate

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The Fallen
« Reply #131 on: October 23, 2006, 07:54:37 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""

You remember yours, I'll remember mine, and NO ONE WILL BE FORGOTTEN.


Got it!
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If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline starry-eyed pirate

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The Fallen
« Reply #132 on: October 23, 2006, 08:11:30 PM »
I laugh to consider it bu'...  :rofl:  :rofl: ... le's keep talkin...I mean,  aint tryin' to be weird or nothin.  Just sayin.  'Ont jjhoo speak your peace...all respect intended... ::armed::
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If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline starry-eyed pirate

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The Fallen
« Reply #133 on: October 23, 2006, 08:31:24 PM »
Whoa.  Sorry.  I guess I come across pretty strange sometimes.  Thanks for waitin on me to figure that out.  Thank you.

My basic take is that $tr8 was fucked and all Authority is fucvked beyond hell!!!!!!
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If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline Antigen

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The Fallen
« Reply #134 on: October 23, 2006, 08:42:05 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
I have apprehended my  own turning away, and that apprehension was terrible, and that apprehension filled me with ...

Ok, I'm entirely with ya thus far. In fact, I'm about awed. You're in rare form tonight. No sarcasm at all here. But then...

Quote
...the holy spirit.


Aw, c'mon, man! Not this! Please not an invisible friend! No! Move away from the light! Come back to us! Feel his noodley appendages!
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes
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