Author Topic: The Fallen  (Read 34469 times)

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Offline starry-eyed pirate

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The Fallen
« Reply #135 on: October 23, 2006, 08:42:51 PM »
well...I'll tell you wha-at.  I aint from the south, but I respect that kind-a fight.  And I say fuck 'em all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end.  People are not commodities.  When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.

Offline Antigen

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The Fallen
« Reply #136 on: October 23, 2006, 11:14:43 PM »
No thing ever stated has been stated acurately or without some prejudice and inacuracy. Every history comes in a variety of versions and colors. To name a thing is to damn it. All that's true enough and valid as anything.

But this is also true; it takes a thousand voices to tell just one story. Never mind whether the cause of someone's passing was directly or indirectly or not at all attributable to the Program. They're just as gone and now that we're all hitting a point in life when we're willing and able to reflect on the whole thing as seasoned adults, it sure as hell would be nice to be able to get their take on it. I miss them, even the ones I didn't know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline RTP2003

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The Fallen
« Reply #137 on: October 24, 2006, 02:52:46 AM »
Wow, this has been an interesting discussion with several interesting and admirable viewpoints put forth from all sides, in between a bit of typical Fornits sniping.

First of all, I think we can all agree that it is appropriate for us as survivors of Straight to have a memorial for the dead and wounded victims.  We are the only people in the world who know what it was like to be in Straight, others, though sympathetic, have no real understanding of the nature of the mindfuck.  I think that this memorial is appropriate and honorable.

Also, I agree with what the anon said about many folks who may not want to have their names spoken by someone who could have been a potential abuser.  I can see that point; hell, when I was in Straight, most of you, with very few exceptions, were the enemy.  There are people I still hold grudges against, grudges I am willing to set aside for the purpose of this memorial.  I plan on speaking at the memorial, but do not plan on mentioning anyone by name, for the reasons anon has articulated, but I do think it is entirely appropriate for someone who was a friend of the deceased to make mention of them.  Another reason I will not be mentioning anyone specifically is because of the many unknowns involved, and I do not want to lessen the tragedy of someone's death through omitting them.  That is why I personally will not be mentioning anyone by name, but will be more than willing to listen to a friend or family member who wishes to memorialize a fallen friend or relative, by name, or anonymously if they so choose.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #138 on: October 24, 2006, 12:29:01 PM »
How dare you pull dead people into your worship of your own macabre obsessions. DISRESPECTFUL.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #139 on: October 24, 2006, 01:20:42 PM »
Quote from: ""Cassandra""
Quote from: ""Guest""
I have apprehended my  own turning away, and that apprehension was terrible, and that apprehension filled me with ...

Ok, I'm entirely with ya thus far. In fact, I'm about awed. You're in rare form tonight. No sarcasm at all here. But then...

Quote
...the holy spirit.

Aw, c'mon, man! Not this! Please not an invisible friend! No! Move away from the light! Come back to us! Feel his noodley appendages!


Ginger, I think you are confused. I think the holy spirit is what kicks you to find the truth. I think you operate on that every single day. I think  you operate on that every time you understand and speak socratically to persons still in the mental grip of the brainwash. I think you get it, very much, you don't hold the hate, you get it that people really could be that brainwashed to participate in shit.

When people make something bigger and better out of a bad situation, that's the holy spirit. Take the civil rights movement, for example. People didn't just march to get some better laws passed, they marched to express a new spirit they had found, which overflowed once Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat. They were saying more than just "people get to sit anywhere and eat anywhere and go to school anywhere equally". They were standing up to the thing that was keeping them down, not only that, but standing up together, and not just black people, they ignited a big fire. I mean, they really did. The civil rights movement had an impact on other movements for justice, all over the world. That, mama-san, is the holy spirit.

Don't be so scared, I know it sounds "Christian", but no religion can expropriate this thing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Clarification
« Reply #140 on: October 24, 2006, 01:50:56 PM »
Not that it is important in any way, shape, or form...but I wanted to clarify that I, the anonymous dude opposed to composing a centralized list of the dead, is a different anonymous than he/she discussing the Holy Spirit.
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Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #141 on: October 25, 2006, 01:53:07 PM »
B.S. ya fuckin liar. I saw you when I looked in the mirror this morning.
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Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #142 on: October 25, 2006, 02:09:01 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
B.S. ya fuckin liar. I saw you when I looked in the mirror this morning.


All you saw in the mirror this morning, my friend, was your own mother and fathers' biggest mistake.
 :evil: :flame:  :evil:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #143 on: October 25, 2006, 02:18:07 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
B.S. ya fuckin liar. I saw you when I looked in the mirror this morning.

All you saw in the mirror this morning, my friend, was your own mother and fathers' biggest mistake.
 :evil: :flame:  :evil:


Oh shut up, all of you, or I am going to confiscate our mirror.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Valhalla

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Re: Not sorry V~
« Reply #144 on: October 25, 2006, 05:58:07 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Valhalla""
At this point, I'm wondering if you're just trying to stir the pot.  Your redundency has certainly hit home, as I have read all that you've written.   I find what you say extremely unhelpful.  You say a lot, but your words are empty.  You don't want to help us, so why are you even bothering to post here?  

'Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post'.  WTF???  I don't need to ask Wes anything.  Where did that even come from?  This has nothing to do with him.  It has everything to do with those who are dead...and we want to simly remember them.

If you have anything further to say, please feel free to PM me and use your real identiy.  Otherwise, I will continue to think of you as someone simply trying to stir the pot.

I take my pot smoked...not stirred.  What would possibly motivate me to "stir the pot" with you V.?  What could I possibly have to gain by simply sharing an objective observation?

"Extremely unhelpful...empty words...don't want to help"?  Don't confuse me as some sort of adversary because I am opposed to your agenda.  My primary and only concern is for those that have passed.  It's about something that I call honor, Valhalla. I see it as the epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data.  Could my perspective be any more clear on the matter?  I am not trying to stir up anything.  

My invitation to ask Wes was because he, as I, have also attempted the same list in which you are working on, though for different reasons.  Both lists were started with the best of intentions.  My invitation was also to ask surviving family members to see what they think about their loved ones being on a list of the deceased put together by former STRAIGHT teens.  If I were dead, my mother would promptly tell you to go shit in your hat.

Mrs. Moya has a respectable list on her website of deceased teens from contemporary treatment facilities.  This is verifiable data as it is in current media and can be substantiated unlike any attempts to compile any such listing from the gulags of 20 years ago.

I won't PM you Valhalla, I don't PM anyone.  This is my real identity.  I don't think it makes the slightest bit of difference if I log in with my regular user name, some fictitious one, or use my actual name-date of birth-and social security number.  It's not ME that matters, it's the words I speak, anonymously or not.

Quote from: ""starryeyedpirate""
2ndly, the anon guest who advises us does so with those we want to honor in mind. I respect that. (drinkin my wine)
 Thanks, Starry.  I wish I could buy you a bottle for recognizing the true nature of my words.


If I came across harsh, I appologize.  There have been too many trying to cause a bit of bother on this thread.  I have no agenda. I have simply been trying to put together a list of the fallen.  

My attempt at this list was in no way a 'half ass job'.  I know that it is no where near complete and never will be.  I know that much is hearsay.  I know that many of those on the list would probably not want to have their names spoken by someone who was there.  It has been  extremely difficult to compile this list, in many ways.  I have read, to my knowledge, all the lists ever written, by both Mrs. Moya, Wes and others.  I have given it my best shot with this list.  We have a time constraint here for the Memorial and I do not have the resources at my disposal to check the list as you proposed.  I wish I could.  I would like it to be as complete and accurate as possible.  I do not want to leave anyone out.

I hear what you are saying.  I know what you are saying.  And I think the attempt here is honorable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Valhalla

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The Fallen
« Reply #145 on: October 25, 2006, 06:19:48 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
In closing, I hope there are others out there that agree with the notion that it is the  epitome of dishonor to do a half ass job by specifically ackowledging only a fraction of the deceased based upon questionable data.


Well, I think our intentions here are very honorable.  I guess that is where you and I will disagree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #146 on: October 25, 2006, 06:44:23 PM »
Please tell me so that I can understand what the problem is with having someone from straight read your name from a list of those that have passed??? Seriously...if not someone who was also there and KNOWS what it was like...then who? A group of strangers?

I think that the people that have passed would probably be glad to be remembered.. so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
I also don't understand why it's such an issue that the list be "complete." Hell, the day before the memorial any one of us could die and our name wouldn't be on the list...would that be dishonoring to that person? Get a grip.
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Offline Valhalla

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The Fallen
« Reply #147 on: October 25, 2006, 06:46:06 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Please tell me so that I can understand what the problem is with having someone from straight read your name from a list of those that have passed??? Seriously...if not someone who was also there and KNOWS what it was like...then who? A group of strangers?

I think that the people that have passed would probably be glad to be remembered.. so I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
I also don't understand why it's such an issue that the list be "complete." Hell, the day before the memorial any one of us could die and our name wouldn't be on the list...would that be dishonoring to that person? Get a grip.


Thank you.  Very well said!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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The Fallen
« Reply #148 on: October 25, 2006, 08:05:07 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
B.S. ya fuckin liar. I saw you when I looked in the mirror this morning.

All you saw in the mirror this morning, my friend, was your own mother and fathers' biggest mistake.
 :evil: :flame:  :evil:

Oh shut up, all of you, or I am going to confiscate our mirror.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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The Fallen
« Reply #149 on: October 25, 2006, 11:05:32 PM »
Anon speaking of the holy spirit, thanks for that high praise. I shit you not, it brought tears to my eyes and that's no small feat. I was really just sort of being a smart ass, though. Yeah, I get ya. Real well. I dare not name it, though, lest it be damned.

Rtp, I think you've got the perfect solution. In the privacy of my own mind and heart, I'll be mourning all those other victims of this war. No need to vocalize it, is there?

Man, you guys rock! You just have NO idea how much I need to feel this kind of at home right now. Thank you all so much. I'm just trying to bring myself to grips w/ the harsh reality that I probably can't make the trip financially. I'm in the middle of moving and the business is in trouble. That bums me out more than words can tell. Any techs out there willing to take on this beast? Or donate some frequent flyer miles so I can run away and hide out back in the hell state in a couple of weeks?

Anyway, if I'm not there in body I'll surely be there in spirit.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes