The Fallen

[starry-eyed pirate]

Or is there a warning in your words that I'm not gettin'... ??  Has the list of the fallen crippled you somehow ??  taken your energy ??  Left you that much closer to death yourself ??

Thankyou.  I heed your words.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like the voice of experience.

Are you thinking of attending any of the memorials ??  If you were in one of the $tr8s I would be real interested in your list and any information concerning the fallen that you might already have.  Would you post your list here(excluding all the bogus info that you found out about later), or pm it to me and Valhalla so we can check it out ??  

I understand what you're sayin.  How difficult compiling such a list will be.  But if we are dedicated and if we investigate to find the truth and if we are willing to be patient...I don't know...just seems like it needs done.  After all there are official death records that are kept that can be used to verify or debunk any rumors.

There's no reason not to try is there ??  To learn what we can.

Thanks for hanging in there with me, Starry.  Let me start by saying that my list would be of no benefit to you for reasons I don't want to mention.  I will say that even if it would be of benefit, adding it to the list you have put together would only counter what my previous posts have stated.  I was dedicated as well, and my focus was on a single location, much less daunting than a centralized lists from all st8s.  I totally respect your endeavor, however I also have enough respect for the departed to throw in my .02.  I agree with the other post that I wouldn't want anyone I was in STRAIGHT with to speak my name after I passed on.

No hidden words of warning as you mentioned, Starry.  Only good intentions that came from having my heart in the right place, but the wrong plan.  The results of my labor are now an indelible part of Wes's work and I regret going public with the people and relative information as it was (as I mentioned) less than accurate and left many people that I wasn't aware totally out.

I was very dilligent in my research and have a very good friend that worked with the SSA.  I was able to use him to my advantage, but in hindsight there were other ways that I could recognize and respect the departed rather than nose around in government records to suit my own perversely morbid curiousity (which is not how it started, but was definitely all it was in the end.  A "whom died how" question that served no importance whatsoever in the big picture).

In summary, my point is this (and pardon the redundance):
I think a general memoriam is a better idea than the organization and verbalization of a specific list that includes any information aside from that gleaned from actual family or funeral attendees for two reasons, well three actually.

1.) ANY specific information on specific people is only the "tip of the iceberg" of all those that are now deceased.  Acknowledging the tip of the iceberg, still leaves those that we don't know about as forgotten or in iceberg terms, "beneath the surface".

2.) At best,  SOME information maybe heresay, rumors, or all the way around inaccurate.  Why gamble on inaccuracies at such an important event rather than acknowledge the group as a whole.  

3.) Speaking personally, I would not want anyone, friend or foe, from the program to speak my name postmort~I just wouldn't, even if they meant well and meant to be respectful.  They may have been one of those that restrained me for hours that is suddenly a "survivor" or remorseful for what they did.  Fuck that.  If I were deceased, I would rather rest peacefully than for anyone from STRAIGHT to "pay me respect" by speaking my name at a memorial.  

I don't want to rain on anyones idea, I think it is a great idea and one that I would not mind being a part of in a big way.  However, I have had too many friends pass away NOT to share my opinion on the matter.  

Please consider my words and how they may be of benefit both to the event and those no longer with us.

[dragonfly]

[Anonymous]

Well, If we don't read any names, then we won't be leaving anyone out...That's been my only concern...Personally I think it is appropriate to read the list of names

So you are up for leaving people out?  I guess I really don't understand, dragonfly, sounds like a contradiction.  You also said "someone would not be accounted for".  There were thousands and thousands in STRAIGHT, you will not be leaving "someone" out, you will be leaving hundreds and hundreds of people out.  

Good intentions, but an impossible task.  Think about it.
 
Also, do me a favor my friends from STRAIGHT, when I kick it, don't say my name and don't have Rev. Newton give any eulogies.  You were not family, you were not friends.  You were all characters that played a harmful role in an ugly chapter in my life that I will never forget.  I was fortunate enough to live through it, many were not. Don't meet in my honor and don't speak my name.  Burn a bowl of TBPITW on the couch and think to yourself...."yeah, he was a cool dude" that will make me smile wherever I am.
 

[Anonymous]

How can you care if you're dead?  :rofl:

[Valhalla]

Yeah. I know what you mean.

What if instead of reading off some unverifiable list of names we allowed time for anyone who was there in attendence who wanted to, to specifically mention or talk about someone ??  time to give a eulogy of sorts ??  Know what I mean ??  That way the people who wanted to give honor to the fallen in a personal way could do it and those who wanted to be less personal could do that.  Am I making any sense, I can't tell ??  Like if a person wants to bear witness or represent then I think they should.    

Everyone will have their own way, and those differences will be respected, at least by me.

Sounds good to me.  I think having the list there, too, would perhaps be beneficial to anyone wanting to see the bigger picture.

[Valhalla]

The list is still important and needs to be created.  It would be good Valhalla, if you would bring what you have at the time of the memorial to the memorial, and maybe some people  there could give us more information.  You know...like whatever facts and rumors you have collected we could work on verifyin' the facts or what-have-you.  I mean, that needs done regardless of everything anyway.  We need to create and maintain a list of the dead, with all relevant facts.  I mean, it seems like it would be good to have such a list, of the fallen.

Of course!  The List will be there no matter what.  I completely agree that such a list needed to be created, regardless of hearsay.  At least we will have the oppurtunity to verify who is on the list and make any necessary changes to it.

[Valhalla]

I would be real interested in your list and any information concerning the fallen that you might already have.  Would you post your list here(excluding all the bogus info that you found out about later), or pm it to me and Valhalla so we can check it out ??  

I understand what you're sayin.  How difficult compiling such a list will be.  But if we are dedicated and if we investigate to find the truth and if we are willing to be patient...I don't know...just seems like it needs done.  After all there are official death records that are kept that can be used to verify or debunk any rumors.

There's no reason not to try is there ??  To learn what we can.

I would also be very interested in seeing your list, especially if you've been able to verify it.  It would certainly help us out here with making ours more accurate.  

And compiling this list IS difficult in many ways, but I totally agree that it needs to be done... for many reasons.

[Valhalla]

Well, If we don't read any names, then we won't be leaving anyone out...

That's been my only concern...

Personally I think it is appropriate to read the list of names, but it has been bothering me because I knew it would not be a perfect list, somebody would not be accounted for, or as Pirate has been saying, what if we call out the name of a suicide rumor and he's standing there, could be an awkward moment...

Maybe the comprimise would be to have the list there and folks can look at it and add to it and make comments, but maybe we won't count on calling the names out...

I know that the list will never be complete.  There is no way, with our resourses as they are, that it could be.  It bothers me, too, that there will be people left out.  I think that a moment of silence for those not accounted for would be very appropriate...to remember those that should be remembered, but were somehow forgotten.

[Valhalla]

I would like to thank Valhalla for working so hard on this...

I'd like to say 'It's been a pleasure', but it really hasn't.  I just hope it helps somehow, in some way.

[Valhalla]

Well, If we don't read any names, then we won't be leaving anyone out...That's been my only concern...Personally I think it is appropriate to read the list of names

So you are up for leaving people out?  I guess I really don't understand, dragonfly, sounds like a contradiction.  You also said "someone would not be accounted for".  There were thousands and thousands in STRAIGHT, you will not be leaving "someone" out, you will be leaving hundreds and hundreds of people out.  

Good intentions, but an impossible task.  Think about it.

I don't see that as a contradtiction...more like a dilema.  Don't twist his words.

I don't want to leave anyone out either, but I also know that there is no way to be able to include everyone who should be included.  That is why I think a collective rememberence should be made for those who we don't know to include.

[Anonymous]

This is all getting way more complicated than it needs to be.

 :exclaim:  :exclaim:

[Valhalla]

This is all getting way more complicated than it needs to be.

 :exclaim:  :exclaim:

Yep.  It sure is.

[Anonymous]

I would also be very interested in seeing your list, especially if you've been able to verify it.  It would certainly help us out here with making ours more accurate.  

And compiling this list IS difficult in many ways, but I totally agree that it needs to be done... for many reasons.

Sorry, Valhalla.  If my redundancy didn't hit it home, I'll say it again.  I am against the idea of a centralized list or named memorials because of the three reasons aforementioned.  Ask someone that has been at this a while (including Wes, whom has also "been there done that")  what they may think about this.  I am certain they will concur that this is a futile attempt.

My list wouldn't help you.  
You are admittedly accepting bogus, questionable-at-best data, with hundreds and hundreds of known omissions, as legitimate information.  No seriously bonafide research is ever approached in this way.
NO list would help you.  

From someone who has been there and knows:  The only way that you could ever have anything close to accurate information is to cross reference a list that includes the names of every teen that ever went through all STRAIGHT facilities with the social security death index to see who is kicking and who has since kicked it.

In closing, if it hasn't already, this avenue seems to be digressing in a similiar fashion as it did years ago when I was working on a similiar list.  Things soon devolve to signify nothing more than a morbidly perverse game of "who's dead and how did they die".  My thoughts are that any collaborative list unfortunately has an  allure analagous to watching "Faces of Death" as a teen or watching beheadings in Iraq on the internet.  Only this list involves people we used to sit next to in group.  

One last question, is it too much to ask to possibly talk to surviving family members of the deceased?  See what they think.  There are many that would be more than happy to share their opinion with you.  Ask Wes his thoughts on the matter, THEN reply to this post.

[Anonymous]

Well, If we don't read any names, then we won't be leaving anyone out...

quote]

I don't understand.  Why is it so important to know who exactly has died and who has not?