I can't imagine any parent sending their kid to a program af

[LauraLee]

Well, with all the swearing, berating, and whatnot, I can understand why people may not find Fornits credible.

A majority of the threads just dissolve into people hurling insults, so when parents see that, they just take the whole forum as something that is unjustly negative towards the TT industry.

Although if they look past that, I'll bet a majority of the parents re-think their thought of sending their kid to the program.

However, first impressions are everything.

[teachback]

On 2006-06-04 18:49:00, TheWho wrote:

On 2006-06-04 17:26:00, Anonymous wrote:


Fuck off and die. As if there could be any question that sending your kid(s) off to some pseudo-therapeutic greed-based mind control cult is any kind of solution to anything!!! You all should have been abortions yourselves and have no business being responisible for the life of another human being...."

I am not sure what schools you are referring to specifically but I would never send any of my kids to a place as you describe, cultism, mind control stuff, most of that went out in the 70?s and if those schools do exist they need to change or get out of the business.  The more forward thinking schools are focused on teaching the kids to be more independent and responsible for their own lives (not conforming to a standard norm), sounds like you had a bad experience."

- bump - Which schools in particular would you say are some of the more forward thinking schools?

[Anonymous]

On 2006-06-05 14:36:00, LauraLee wrote:

"Well, with all the swearing, berating, and whatnot, I can understand why people may not find Fornits credible.



A majority of the threads just dissolve into people hurling insults, so when parents see that, they just take the whole forum as something that is unjustly negative towards the TT industry.



Although if they look past that, I'll bet a majority of the parents re-think their thought of sending their kid to the program.



However, first impressions are everything."

There is no such thing as 'fornits credibility'. This is an internet message board, where individuals post. It is up to each reader to decide what posts to assign credibility to and which one not. To stereotype every poster here as having the same agneda, which seems to be done on a daily basis, is a fallacy. Fornits is just a communication tool, the content is provided by countless individuals across the world.

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-05 14:49:00, Frank Discussion wrote:

"

On 2006-06-04 18:49:00, TheWho wrote:

On 2006-06-04 17:26:00, Anonymous wrote:



Fuck off and die. As if there could be any question that sending your kid(s) off to some pseudo-therapeutic greed-based mind control cult is any kind of solution to anything!!! You all should have been abortions yourselves and have no business being responisible for the life of another human being...."

I am not sure what schools you are referring to specifically but I would never send any of my kids to a place as you describe, cultism, mind control stuff, most of that went out in the 70?s and if those schools do exist they need to change or get out of the business.  The more forward thinking schools are focused on teaching the kids to be more independent and responsible for their own lives (not conforming to a standard norm), sounds like you had a bad experience."

- bump - Which schools in particular would you say are some of the more forward thinking schools?"

Well from what I have been reading here a parent would not want to sent their kids to the so called boot camps or places like straight.  TBS's have emerged as more focused on a childs' individual needs, places like ASR or Carlbrook seem to have high success rates and are evolving and improving.

[Anonymous]

Same shit, varying levels of abuse.

[AtomicAnt]

Well from what I have been reading here a parent would not want to sent their kids to the so called boot camps or places like straight. TBS's have emerged as more focused on a childs' individual needs, places like ASR or Carlbrook seem to have high success rates and are evolving and improving.

The only difference in any of these programs is in the window dressing. Boot camps, wilderness programs, TBS, call it anything you want. They all use the same technique. They break the will of the teenager to resist using harsh, cruel methods and once broken, force the teenager to adopt their narrow set of ill-conceieve values. Then they force the teenager to impose the same degrading techniques on new arrivals. They hold the teenager hostage long enough for it to stick (they hope) and in some cases attempt to force continued involvement in their cult-like efforts after the teenager is released.

Those teenagers who buy into the cult-think are paraded around as proof the program works. Those teenagers who emerge damaged and emotionally distraught are slandered with the labels of liar and manipulator. Those teenagers who are killed are considered to be "...an acceptable window of loss..."

Freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of choice, indeed free will itself is their biggest enemy. They crush these things at every opportunity.

[Troll Control]

Well from what I have been reading here a parent would not want to sent their kids to the so called boot camps or places like straight. TBS's have emerged as more focused on a childs' individual needs, places like ASR or Carlbrook seem to have high success rates and are evolving and improving.

Both of these facilities were started, developed and run by staff members from CEDU.  CEDU was closed in large part due to lawsuits for rampant child abuse.  One of the Carlbrook directors was Headmaster at ASR. I personally know the founder of ASR and he is and was an absolutely abusive animal in his destructive dealings with kids.

As Atomic Ant said in the previous post, the difference is "window dressing."  It's the same names, same game and nothing has changed.

There is not a single, solitary shred of evidence that shows any of these programs, and these two in particular, to be clinically effective in any way.

_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."

-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-07 08:04 ]

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-06 09:53:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"

Well from what I have been reading here a parent would not want to sent their kids to the so called boot camps or places like straight. TBS's have emerged as more focused on a childs' individual needs, places like ASR or Carlbrook seem to have high success rates and are evolving and improving.

Both of these facilities were started, developed and run by staff members from CEDU.  CEDU was closed for rampant child abuse.  One of the Carlbrook directors was Headmaster at ASR. I personally know the founder of ASR and he is and was an absolutely abusive animal in his destructive dealings with kids.



As Atomic Ant said in the previous post, the difference is "window dressing."  It's the same names, same game and nothing has changed.



There is not a single, solitary shred of evidence that shows any of these programs, and these two in particular, to be clinically effective in any way.



_________________

"Compassion is the basis of morality."



-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-06 09:54 ]"

Ah, the ?founding fathers? argument, we could fill a forum.  It is never very pretty compared to where we are today, Ben Franklin, Washington, Hell, Bill Gates never finished college or took even one business course, and is not qualified to practice as a professional engineer in the state of Washington, yet he gets a vote of confidence every year, go figure, his company is 1,000 times better than it was in the 80?s.  How do we apply the standards of time here?  Do we continue to purchase Microsoft windows because of its first edition or because of how it performs today?  These TBS?s are turning out great kids every year that are on track.  The ones that want to go on to college do so.  We do lack enough clinical studies, I agree, but until such time we need to rely and judge the performance of the schools based on their output and alumni.

DJ, spend a day reading on the ?Straight forum? and then compare that to some of the more progressive TBS?s today, fences are coming down, no restraints, kids are allowed to grow at their own pace, family involvement, field trips, post stay plans and follow-up.  Progress can be measured in ?orders of magnitude?.  But as you said ?Are they clinically effective??,  We will have to wait for the studies to be completed to get that answer.  In the mean time it is important to keep talking to the kids who have attended as a way to keep our finger on the pulse.  Fornits is a source for some of this feed back.

[Anonymous]

"CEDU was closed for rampant child abuse."

Actually, the closure was due to financial mismanagement and greed.  CEDU was bought by an investor group using a lot of borrowed money.  They then "bled" the company to meet debt payments and pay themselves a "management fee".  And, they also bought another group of marginal programs with a bunch of legal issues that strained already limited financial resources further.  So, child abuse did not bring the closure.  

One hopes the facts will matter a bit.

[Troll Control]

Let me clarify.  CEDU was not closed by any sort of "raid" or anything like that.  It collapsed financially and was closed in large part due to extensive litigation against it for abuse.  It settled many cases for many millions of dollars and it collapsed because of it.

To the Who:

Are you comparing Rudy Bentz and Tim Brace to Ben Franklin and Bill Gates?

You live in a really strange, out of touch reality, buddy.  I'll say it again - you should strictly avoid analogies because you mangle evry one you throw out there.  Find some other way to express yourself because this craziness just makes you look like some kind of whacko.

FWIW, we still live by the framework of the constitution over two hundred years later (even though GWB is doing a Texas two-step on it).  The "rule book" is still the same, just like it is at Carlbrook and ASR.  They still operate on the same founding principles - isolate, coerce and modify.

_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."

-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-06 14:18 ]

[TheWho]

On 2006-06-06 14:15:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:

"Let me clarify.  CEDU was not closed by any sort of "raid" or anything like that.  It collapsed financially and was closed in large part due to extensive litigation against it for abuse.  It settled many cases for many millions of dollars and it collapsed because of it.



To the Who:



Are you comparing Rudy Bentz and Tim Brace to Ben Franklin and Bill Gates?



You live in a really strange, out of touch reality, buddy.  I'll say it again - you should strictly avoid analogies because you mangle evry one you throw out there.  Find some other way to express yourself because this craziness just makes you look like some kind of whacko.



FWIW, we still live by the framework of the constitution over two hundred years later (even though GWB is doing a Texas two-step on it).  The "rule book" is still the same, just like it is at Carlbrook and ASR.  They still operate on the same founding principles - isolate, coerce and modify.



_________________

"Compassion is the basis of morality."



-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2006-06-06 14:18 ]"

You got caught using bad facts again, you cant take it out on the anon, so use me !!  Thats okay.  The point is we have evolved as a nation, so has microsoft , ASR and Carlbrook etc. and will continue to do so.

[Anonymous]

Who, your relentless, monomaniacal trolling and complete lack of knowledge of what you're talking about disgusts and appalls me. Please stop posting here.

- A Parent

[Anonymous]

the who said

DJ, spend a day reading on the ?Straight forum? and then compare that to some of the more progressive TBS?s today, fences are coming down, no restraints, kids are allowed to grow at their own pace, family involvement, field trips, post stay plans and follow-up.

You are freaking clueless man.

[Anonymous]

The who needs to read the Whitmore threads.
DUH. Maybe him realizing the owner is facing a criminal child abuse trial in September MIGHT open his closed eyes.

[TheWho]

Are you comparing Rudy Bentz and Tim Brace to Ben Franklin and Bill Gates?

Who, your relentless, monomaniacal trolling and complete lack of knowledge of what you're talking about disgusts and appalls me. Please stop posting here.

- A Parent

You are freaking clueless man.

Okay, DJ, you logged in 1 out of 3 times, which is getting better.  To answer your question , yes I am comparing Rudy Bentz and Tim Brace to Ben Franklin and Bill Gates.  But most people don?t have a tough time understanding analogies.  
For you I will explain:

 I am not saying they have the same moral values, the same ethnic back ground, hair color or religions.  But they were founders, when using an analogy you must assume that the recipient will know enough to search and understand the connection you are trying to make and you seem to struggle in this area.  So, yes, they are totally different people but the analogy bridges them together for maybe one thing they have in  common.  You miss it every time and each time you seem so miffed.