FORMER CEDU STAFF

[blownawaytheidahoway]

About the Observer comments. All true. She does not pretend to address things that are contrary to her views no matter who the poster. She is just a reactionary. She hasn't responded to any of my postings though I've asked for the attention...I'm a glutton for punishment. She sounds just like my mommy.
Telling me how very out of control I was (to her) how very angry I was ( with her) and how I needed to spend time away (for her). and so where does that leave us? I wasn't Her...I was me. And I had to stop being me in order to function and get through the program. Two years after graduation my mother wants to know why I don't get past any of the issues. It was hard enough for her to see that there is something to get past. Thank god I'm articulate enough to keep my cool most of the time and am able to restrain myself from reacting to things more than the folks do. That came from RMA. But that ability to communicate honestly is practically Lost on them. Too bad. CEDU promised me that being honest would give my parents the desire to Love and forgive me the way I have  them. Or at the very least give me tools to deal if they can't/won't. Deeper than I wanted to go right now.

Maybe Ottowa can see what her son's point of view really is, when he has the space to become honest. There are so many issues for sure between the parents and children/students to the programs. A lot of stuff under there. I know from my recent conversations with the rents. Can we help that process? I thought (would love to be informed if I am incorrect) mudbones357 was the fabled CEDUized Son. He seemed to have experienced some terrible impressions while retaining some of the positive. Maybe it's time that instead of healing has gestated more hurt, confusion, and anger.

[ottawa5]

But other times you are sort of funny, so I guess it all evens out.

What I said is that I am AT THIS POINT mostly interested in observing.  Originally I participated more to get my questions out, because there were some positive-story posters with whom I was able to network before they left in disgust, and also because I thought that the site was a little more open to reasoned discourse than it really is.

And, I must say, it is boring to debate with certain people whose vocabulary is predominantly 4 letter words, outrage, and vulgarities.

Also, I now think that perhaps this site is more of a "shell" discussion place. A friend who is a lawyer commented that this may the case, and his explanation made sense. Based on what he told me about how class-action lawsuits are drummed up, I wonder if Fornits is being used by some to try to elicit outrageous stories, in the hopes that a law suit can be engineeered from the materials and contacts gathered.

I do think that many of the posters who are being used in this way are sincere in telling their stories.  These sincere stories are really the aspect that interests me, but in the background, I have to say it, there is a definite flavor among certain participants of dreams of hopping onto some kind of legal gravy train, if only enough people will tell the same stories so that abuse can be said to be universal in these schools. These "dreamers" may, by the way, include disgruntled ex-employees who were canned by CEDU for some ineptitude or other, now perhaps underemployed due to their own limitations, and looking for someone to blame.

Now, I've already given my opinion that some big lawsuit is just not going to happen, it's not in the cards, the "zeitgeist" of the times is against frivolous suits and the trend is toward parents controlling their kids; obviously others may think it's in the cards and disagree.

And speaking of stupid, why bother to insult me when, if you would just ignore me, the need to clear up foolish blurting would be minimized, and you would likely hear from me much less? Isn't that your hope?
 
Finally, if you happen to check the post that you claim I edited, you will find no indication of editing at the end of it. That's because I didn't.

[CEDU IS A CULT]

Now, you're wayyyy off the paranoid deep end Ottawa.  Shell site?  Come on!  CEDU has already lost 2 lawsuits.  Or are we making that up?

[ottawa5]

But I take exception to the statement that I've never responded to your postings.

I responded to a detailed post from you, with a great long post that I sent on 9/8/04, 20:23:00, entitled "Well, that's quite a bit to respond to..." on the thread "For the Guys on Moose Talk". I checked it and it is definitely there so perhaps you were away from your computer on the day that I posted it.

[ottawa5]

But for all I know, you may be right. It's hard to predict the future but, all in all, I am betting against any big litigious effort that closes down the emotional growth school phenomenon. As I said, I think there is a growing trend toward reining-in acting-out teens as well as a growing resentment of lawyers' "ambulance chasing" for profit.

In terms of the two suits you talk about: I don't know much about them, beyond what I've heard here.  Any company is going to be responsible for certain negligent acts, employee misdeeds and so on...that isn't what I'm referring to.  

I am saying that I don't think it's in the cards that some lawyer is going to be able to convince a judge and jury that requiring running-amok teens to chop wood, attend group and get yelled at, be in Propheets, and so on, is abuse. I think that the average juror is not going to think that this sounds so bad, considering what the kid may have been doing before being sent there.

And then there is the issue of all the pro-CEDU parents and kids that would testify on the other side--look, they are planning a big reunion for next summer, I just got the mailing awhile ago and you just cannot imagine how many satisfied graduates and families there are. These kids and families will say that the confrontation was worth it, and the ones I know, at least, had a pretty different experience in terms of what actually transpired in their programs, as compared to some of what I hear at this site.

I don't think I'm being very paranoid, my lawyer friend told me about analogous sites that, over the last few years, have been set up, or encouraged, by trial lawyers on issues of damage by certain pharmaceuticals, in order to build class-action suits, and, of course, to make a lot of money, mostly for the attorneys, but some for the plaintiffs, too.

But I have absolutely no proof that this is the case here, just my friend's suggestion that he smelled a rat in what goes on here, and my observation that his explanation made sense, based on some of the posts I've seen here.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-09-17 11:48:00, ottawa5 wrote:




"I do think that many of the posters who are being used in this way are sincere in telling their stories".  



"Now, I've already given my opinion that some big lawsuit is just not going to happen, it's not in the cards, the "zeitgeist" of the times is against frivolous suits and the trend is toward parents controlling their kids; obviously others may think it's in the cards and disagree."

Ottawa5, this is a prime example of how full of shit you are.  

In one paragraph you've clearly stated that many of the posters here are SINCERE in telling their stories. By "sincere", I take it you mean that these people are telling the truth regarding the abuses that they suffered at Cedu. But in the next paragraph you've clearly stated that you consider a lawsuit against cedu for those very abuses to be FRIVOLOUS.   ::bwahaha2::

Sure O5, we really believe you. :nworthy: "Hail Queen Ottawa! Misttress of Moose Cock! Hail!"  :nworthy:

[Son Of Serbia]

That Last post Was ME.

[Anonymous]

Really, if you're going to be as petty as your post sounds, for penance, you might at least stop hiding behind the Anon label and give yourself some kind of identifier (how about "Low Blow Coward" or "Can Dish It Out But Can't Take It" or something along thoses lines?).

Just a guess, but I'd bet complexities are hard for you, so I'll try to make my post a little simpler, in terms of your puzzlement.  

If a child has been, to use a nice, clear extreme example, raped by a counsellor, most everyone would agree that this is abusive and a crime.  The courts have a role here, crimianlly and civilly (ie in term sof money damages).

If a child is not allowed to wear, say tee shits with skulls on them or can't leave without parental permission, due to school procedures, just about everyone sane (that may or may not include you) would agree that this is not abuse.

So what about things in between, such as verbal barrages in raps:  they may be really unpleasant, they may be non-productive in a therapeutic sense at least in some cases, but are they abuse in a legal sense? My own view is that the verbal barrage would have to be very, very extreme before most people would consider this abuse.  

That doesn't mean that the kids who talk about it being really painful didn't sincerely find it to be so. Their experiences may tell us a lot about how programs can be optimized.  It may well be that another kind of program would have been better matched to their needs, but these are difficult, probably impossible things to prove, and a court of law still does require proof in order to prevail there. Just because the experience was painful, I am betting that a court would not equate it with abuse.

But, to me, and I think to most people who would hear such a case as jurors, the situations that reach the level of abuse are going to be very rare, especially when the activities that got the kid into the school in the first place are considered).

Here, you hear a lot of hyperbole at this site, CEDU is a concentration camp and so on.  The rest of the world doesn't buy it, from what I see.

So, after you get yourself some guts, and maybe even a user name (you can use one of the ones I offered, if you like) you might take a walk away from the computer and clear the "groupthink" out from between your ears.  Maybe then, you will realize that no everyone in the world is as caught up as you are in the idea that controlling kids who are hurting themselves and others is a matter for the courts to be concerned with.

[ottawa5]

But thinking that you were a random, gutless poster, I have already responded to your emotocon-decorated piece just previously.

I can't blame you for posting Anon by accident, I've done it myself--I just expected something a little more insightful, or at least more humorous, in the body of your post.

I am off now, perhaps you can redeem yourself with something more original or at least some half-way amusing insults.

I look forward to it.

[Anonymous]

and she refuses to call a spade a spade. Don't call it abuse, call it a few bad apples in a delicious apple pie. it''s not like being locked up, it's like a school where you didnt' get it obviously since you still need to post here. Since you are angry about it and get emotional thinking about it it shows that you need this site to throw shit at RMA.
I don't buy any of it. This woman is kuku for cocoapuffs. If 50 people go through or witnesses a traumatic experience each person reacts differently. That people who react less volotile(sp?and hostiley less traumitized?

[Son Of Serbia]

Ottawa5,

All insults and redemption talk aside, I would like to know exactly what it is you consider legal.  I fully agree with your statements that moderate yelling, punishing a child with physical work, and imposing a dress code are not illegal activities, and in fact are part of every day life at most normal boarding schools.  
Yes you are correct in taking that position, and no doubt did so after having lengthly discussions with your lawyer friends.  

Perhaps you and you legal team would be so kind as to inform me as to whether or not the following practices are legal......

Is it legal for a Cedu staff member to break a student's arm in the act of preventing them from walking out of a RAP?

Is it legal for Cedu staff to Isolate a child and completely deprive them of food for a period of 4 days?  (This was done to every cedu student who experienced the solo portion of "WILDERNES CHALLENGE.")

Is it legal for an educator at ANY School to hear students give sincere & detailed accounts of severe physical and/or sexual abuse that was inflicted on them by their parents or other family members, and not report what they've heard to the appropriate authorities (namely the state)?

Is it legal and/or ethical for ANY school to knowingly employ someone to educate children, who publicly and frequently admits to having had molested a 13 year old girl?  Steve Laird was my discovery family head, and he told us about how he had molested that poor girl all the time.

Is it legal and/or ethical for Any school to substitute a proper education (english, math, science, history) with chopping wood, group therapy, and farm work, and to award highschool credits for these activities?  When I was at cedu we had proper schooling only 2 mornings per week.  That's 1 day per week to learn all of the required academics in order to graduate highschool. No state school board would find that acceptable, yet cedu was handing out diplomas every year.

Is it Legal and/or ethical for Any school to forbid and prevent their students from reading books? I mean absolutely no books period!  Being banned from reading was quite common at Cedu-RS when I was there, I myself was BANNED from reading for a period of 3 months!

Is it legal for Cedu school to discriminate against a student's culture and/or religion? When I was at Cedu-RS only Judaism could be practiced openly. Students were not allowed to attend church, or keep any religious symbols that were not Jewish (such as crosses or bibles) in their rooms.  I was made to stand patiently and listen to chanuka and rashashanah songs, yet I was not allowed to observe my own Christmas
(Orthodox Christmas is on January 7th), or to even call my family on that day.  As I understand the law, It is ILLEGAL for Any School to prevent a child from attending Church on Sunday!

Is it legal for staff members at Any school to hurl racial slurs at their students, like cedu staff often do in raps?  There was a girl in my peer group named Kasey, she was black.  Whenever
staff wanted her to cry in raps they would call her a "Nigger", often times repeatedly.

Is it legal for any school to forbid a child from, and to punish them for speaking to their parents in their native language?  My parents and I came here from Montenegro, english is NOT our first language.  Yet, Cedu forbade me from speaking Serbian to them when we talked on the phone, or when they visited me on campus.

Is it legal for a Cedu School to recieve state funding (as they often do with kids who are sent there by the state) and use those funds to teach religion?  The Cedu program has all of the traditional components of religion, including it's own bible ("The Profit" by Kalil Gibraun), preachers (anyone here remeber cedu staff and "House Around the Pit"), commandments and sins (being in and out of agreement), and rights of passage (profeets and work shops).  Just because the state has not yet determined that Cedu's program is in essence a religion, does not mean that they won't in the future.  And there does exist a very strong case for doing so.

Is it Legal for Any Any School to deprive a child of sleep for periods that exceed 30 hours, as Cedu does in their profeets and work shops?  I know for a fact that even prisons are required by law to allow inmates a certain number of hours to sleep for every 24 hour period.

I am personally aware of all the above abuses that I described here. I witnessed almost all of them.  Ottawa5, please print this post and show it to your lawyer friends.  Let's see if they still think that Cedu doesn't break the law.

Oh, and how is this for redemption? By the way, there is plenty more where this came from, but I figure that I've already given you enough to chew on.



.


 [ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-17 15:47 ]

[Deborah]

Stumbled onto another 'isolated incident' of abuse while going through my files. I think this is one from 'we've been there'. Much of what programs do is illegal or ethical, and they will continue to do so until they are forced to stop. They are 'defiant...out of control' and need to be restrained.
~~

My mother decided it was in my best interest to send me away to an "emotion growth school" during my eighth grade summer. Of course I wasn?t the perfect child....I wasn't doing well in school and my mom said that I wasn?t living up to her standards or associating myself with my "caliber of people". Let me explain...I come from a family who has always had a good deal of money so therefore my mother always expected me to be her perfect little country club, tennis playing princess that she wanted me to be. I always felt like she didn?t except me for who I was and never would meet her standards. She ended up touring CEDU high school in running springs without me even knowing (I myself am from Tennessee) obviously she fell in love at first sight. Although CEDU has a nice campus and the upper status girls gave her a tour ( the upper status kids are almost done w the 2 1/2 yr program so they will not dare say a harsh or negative word about the program bc they do not want to get put on a restriction or get kept from going home.) she wasn?t sold the truth .I'm not sure when my mom decided on CEDU, though I do remember clearly the day the escorts came to take me away from everything that I cared about. They simply showed up after breakfast and my mom said "you are going to go with them now". I was confused. I thought my mom no longer wanted me and was sending me to live with a foster family. Then it was explained to me that I would be attending a boarding school in California. The escorts informed me that if I didn?t cooperate that restraints would be necessary. I told my mother and brother goodbye and I remember having the worst pain in my chest as if someone had knocked the breath out of me. I decided I would be strong and cooperate and try to do well at my new school on the way there....little did I know what was waiting on me.

I arrived at CEDU around 10 pm then I was led into the admissions department and talked to by several staff members. After that they led my into a small bathroom where I was strip searched by one staff member and two students..I was extremely humiliated and intimidated, I didn?t even know these people. That night I was informed by the other girls that I wouldn?t be able to go home on Christmas and all about how the program really was. I cried myself to sleep that night.

As the days progressed I became more and more homesick and depressed..I felt unwanted and sold away to some greedy school who had no interest in me other than the money that came along with me.

I attended my first "rap" a couple of days after admission..A rap is supposed to be some sort of therapy session..though I found them more damaging than helpful. We all would have to go sit in a room in a huge circle for hours...the staff would make us scream at the floor and they would shout insults at us like "slut, whore, bitch, etc." they would even tell us that our parents didn?t want us anymore and that?s why we were w them now.

 I was in total hell. Many of the staff were ex drug addicts, sex addicts, and spouse abusers. While at boulder creek (another CEDU school) a staff confessed in a profeet (a profeet is when they wake u at 2 in the morning and take you to a cabin in the woods and make you listen to the same songs over and over again for 13 hrs straight and you have to act out whatever theme the profeet is(like if it was the children?s profeet they make you pretend you are a child) it was always very strange) well the staff confessed that she had genital herpes, had been w over 100 men and drove off the road one time while masturbating...These were the people we were supposed to listen to and take care of us...Another staff told us in a rap that he had problems beating his wife and kids and used to do heroin. So the CEDU system hires some family beater to take care of a bunch of kids...doesn?t make sense to me.

I ended up at boulder creek because I ran away from CEDU..I ran down the backside of a huge mountain with another girl. We went days with no food or water...I had gotten to the point where I didn?t care if I lived or died (I had never been suicidal in my life before CEDU). The girl I was with got bitten by a snake the 2nd day on the mountain and was stuck in a huge thorn bush(her hair was completely matted in the thorns). I wanted to give up I thought I would never be free again and I could no longer see San Bernadino (our goal) all I saw was a vast space of green. I was so weak from being dehydrated I crawled into a ditch and began to pray..I prayed for god to help me and to give me strength and forgive me of my sins in case I died on that mountain. I even carved into my arm with a stick "I love you mom" because it had been so long since I told her and I didn?t want to die and her not know. All of a sudden I became determined to make it and get the girl I was with help. I told her I would get help and that I was going to go. I hiked all night long and into the next morning and eventually I made it to a little winding backroad. I was later picked up by a family in a pick up truck and taken to a payphone..I called my mom first who was supposively staying in California for a parent seminar but I couldn?t find the correct resort that she was staying at. Then I decided I couldn?t leave that girl on the mountain so I swallowed my freedom and called the police. Search and rescue found her 2 days later with a helicopter and she was ok. I was then sent to the CEDU Idaho schools..

I attended boulder creek academy, ascent, and also stayed at Inland behavioral for a while. Its not that I was that bad of a kid, I just knew what was going on in the programs was not right, abusive, and damaging..I would not be a part of that. Cedu almost seemed like a cult..the screaming, profeets, and extremely twisted beliefs. Their theory was that you had to be brought to rock bottom before you would change, so they tried to make you feel as much pain as possible. I remember one girl had to cut her long beautiful hair because staff said she used it to manipulate it with.

All girls unless they were high in the program had to wear their hair tightly up bc CEDU says that girls use hair to flirt, manipulate, and hide behind...

Baby powder was even a privilege b/c girls would use it to powder their noses. We had very little to do with the outside world. We were not allowed to have any relation ships w the opposite sex ( such as dating) which I understand that it could interfere w "therapy" but they would actually tell us we were dirty if we had a crush on someone...We would have to confess in a rap to the person we liked and apologize for lusting over them. It was a really sick program that played alot of head games with you.

One guy even got so desperate and had so many problems he had sex with jazzy the pig on the farm we had to work on..sick,sick,sick. My friend lee had his arm broken in an unnecessary restraint by staff while at ascent.

Also CEDU has had several lawsuits against them an RMA escort was even convicted of raping a girl. I continued to disagree with the program, speak my mind, and get away so I was then sent to inland behavioral (also affiliated with CEDU) where I was locked in a white room the size of a closet for 4 months (Christmas and my 15 bday) I didn?t receive a thing from my family on Christmas or my bday...though later I learned that it was withheld from me and the strawberry cake the staff were eating my mom had it specially sent to me..(though I never knew this till I was out). I felt so forgotten and wasn?t permitted anyone or anything in my room except a bible. 4 months of that! I thought I was going insane..my nerves were so shook I would constantly break out in uncontrollable shakes . I had cried so much over the last 9 months I had forgotten how to cry..I was so used to being sad that if something happy happened I would cry. The program really messed w my head. I was never like that before. I would have terrible anxiety attacks. I even prayed to god at night to just take me and let me die..anything was better that being locked away for who knows how long..I couldn?t see the light at the end of the tunnel. I was never a suicidal person before being sent away, I loved life.

I rarely got to communicate w my family..I wasn?t permitted to talk to my dad for a yr bc he had no custody of me also I didn?t get to talk to my little brother for the same amount of time bc CEDU didn?t feel that I had earned that privilege. If we said anything bad about the program in letters home the staff would return it to us and write "manipulative on it" and it wouldn?t be sent.

 Once I got out I later discovered my mom got very few letters that I sent to her and I hardly got any of hers. The staff chose what they wanted to send and give to us. My mom even sent me a scrapbook she made for me and they used it as a bribe...they would only let me look at it every now and then if they felt I deserved it. I probably got to look at it 5 times.

Well eventually I was removed from CEDU and sent to PCS for 4 months and I finally came home. I can?t tell you the damage these programs caused. I suffered from post traumatic stress disorder. I had a fear that I was going to go to sleep one night and wake up back at the programs, I thought it was possible that I could be zapped back, I wouldn?t let myself enjoy life bc I had in my head that I would just get to attached to being at home and I would find myself there again, I had awful nightmares, I feared anything that could take me away from my family even death... I got in my head that I was going to die and be taken away from everyone again. I am 18 yrs old now and it has been yrs since I was 1st sent away and I still haven?t completely got over the damage that was inflicted upon me. I feel I would have been 100% better off if I was never sent away, and I feel that it only made things worse for me. Parents please think before sending your kid away..put yourself in their shoes. They may be at a hard time in their lives right now..but really they need your love more than ever...the last thing they need is more pain, problems, and even abuse (which is very likely to happen if sent away to a program like I attended). I hope this has been of some help to someone.

[Deborah]

There she goes again. Minimizing the abuse and program methods.

A rape has to be reported, rather than say, covered up, before legal action can be taken.

I have never heard anyone allege that a dress code and being retained is illegal, except to the extent that the child's rights were violated and the program ignored the ICPC. You pick such piddldy ass examples.

O5, you've read a number of accounts on raps. How do you define very, very extreme? And I'd like a clear answer, not a vague dance around. Do you consider it to EVER be therapeutic to scream derrogatory names at a kid? Assume for just a moment, if you can, that these accounts are factual, please describe the therapeutic benefit of this. I genuinely want to hear what is therapeutic about screaming whore, slut, bitch at a teen girl.

And I would certainly think that abuse disguised as 'therapy' would be illegal. The only challenge would be proving what one experienced. All the clever programs have been designed to make this very difficult... as you as eloquently state;

"but these are difficult, probably impossible things to prove, and a court of law still does require proof in order to prevail there. Just because the experience was painful, I am betting that a court would not equate it with abuse."

Raps, Painful? Understatement.

Your a psych major. You want to be an owner of a program. Please tell us how you will run the raps and what benefit you feel it has for the teens. Will they be screamed at, required to scream at the floor, forced to conjure up emotion? And how will they benefit from this? Enquiring minds want to know.

And this"
"But, to me, and I think to most people who would hear such a case as jurors, the situations that reach the level of abuse are going to be very rare, especially when the activities that got the kid into the school in the first place are considered)."

This is a rather sickening opinion. Given the abuse detailed by survivors, this is like condoning the abuse because the kid 'deserved' it.
The 'rest of the world' does not know about this heinous industry. With any luck at all, that will change- when enough people are aware of what actually goes one, and enough pressure is put on licensing and politicians to clean up the industry or close the places down. I do agree with you on one account. Public officials and program parents don't view the methods of programs as abusive, but then they really aren't there everyday, and completely discount reports of abuse, for precisely the reason you eluded to.

"Groupthink", here? So clever. Turn suvivors claims of being brainwashed against them. Coop and bastardize, like any clever politician. Reverse psychology isn't going to work O5. We will chalk it up to yet another of your attempts to discredit and minimize. Most judges aren't interested in interfering with a parent's rights. The good ones are interested in child abuse, physical or psychological.

That is what we are discussing. Not dress code.

Now, are you in the mood to defend the methods?

How are they useful or therapeutic? And not your interpretation of what happens in a rap, but what has been reported here. If you don't believe what has been reported, then why are you still here? What is your motive. You have obviously gather ample information for your thesis, why do you continue in these circular arguments with people you do not respect?

[Ottawa2]

I thought you were going to ingnore my posts?
:wave:

[Anonymous]

Is there any way we can ignore the Ottawas?