Author Topic: FORMER CEDU STAFF  (Read 27785 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« on: September 09, 2004, 11:50:00 PM »
Please testify at this site again. It seems we have lost you and/or you have edited out your quotes.

You could really help with alot of this stuff.

But maybe this is too painful for you.  

Some postings were very helpful.

For any staff w/inside info, please call investigators.  There are people who deserve justice.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2004, 02:42:00 AM »
Sorry - had to do it. That bitch, Ottawa 5 just got too scary with her threats. It's just the way it is. Yes, the investigator has been called. As for posting, her threats became too scary - we deleted threads because of her. There clearly is something wrong with that woman and I don't want to be hurt by her. Have you noticed all the energy she puts into the threads and the vigor of her defense of CEDU? She got too scary with her rants. I hate to say it, but it's true.
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2004, 09:13:00 AM »
I am the "scary" Ottawa5 "bitch" poster---and this is one of the silliest things I have read here.

What threats? There aren't any---I hope that this Anon poster is just seeking sympathy/attention by pretending to have weathered all these terrible assaults from me.  If he/she really believes this, well, there is a need for some kind of attention to keep hold of reality.

Anyone can check the veracity of this person's statements just by looking at my posts.

The only thing that I can remotely gather as being what Anon is referring to is one time when I was attacked by some person who was absolutely hysterical because I had defended a different point of view, and I said something like it was libelous to falsely accuse people of illegal acts.

It is, by the way, although no libelous statements had been made but that seemed to be the direction the hysterical remarks were going and that was the reason for my comment.  

If someone is such a fragile hot-house flower that this constitutes a threat, then good luck to them functioning in the real world, if they ever happen to find themselves there.

As for the scariness of the time I put into these threads, I don't see how that is Anon's concern but I really don't spend much time at it---I've got to assume that Anon is a pretty slow, laboriously reader, writer, or typer, or perhaps very low on energy, because it really doesn't take much of my time at all to check in and respond from time to time.

[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-10 06:14 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-09-12 18:50 ]
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Offline shanlea

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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2004, 09:51:00 AM »
Ottawa, the fact is, once you threw legal terms around, it scared people, and staff have been threatened before. When you leave CEDU, you are persona non grata.  Yes, I understand that there were a lot of presumptuous comments made, even abusive ones, and certainly some diagnoses that may be a bit hasty. But noone knows who you are anyway...

And, from some of your threads, it seems you are reverting back to some dismissive, superior, and presumptuous statements yourself. You don't use foul langauge, you kill 'em with condescension instead.  If you could read past the anger and rage of some posts, you might just see that these people had very traumatic experiences at CEDU.  I know for a fact that the stories are not made up. Maybe you can find some compassion.
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hanlea

Offline Son Of Serbia

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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2004, 09:59:00 AM »
( Ottawa 5) I remember reading the posts that scared this Anon, and I remember that you referred to having a whole team of lawyers under your payroll.  I also remember you telling several posters that you were printing their posts prior to their deletion, and that you were contemplating turning over said posts to your lawyers for review!

If that's not a threat for taking legal action O5, then I don't what is.  Also, I can't think of anything more hysterical or desperate, than threatening a lawsuit in order to silence people who disagree with, or question your motives.  This is exactly what you did.  But I do have to admit, that your terror tactics did work on some of the posters here, but not me.

I stand behind every comment I've ever made here regarding cedu, and I would gladly defend those statements in court.  I have the truth, and personal experience on my side, and YOU WILL NEVER SILENCE ME!!!

The Anon is definately right about one other thing--- YOU ARE A BITCH!

(O5) Why are you still here?  It's obvious that you have already made up your mind about Cedu, and that you intend to fulfill your dream of founding yet another Synanon-Based Hell Hole institution to mind fuck these kids. You continue to dismiss the inherently abusive nature of these programs, despite the countless testimonies supporting this fact, which you've already heard.

Why do you continue wasting so much time and energy debating us?  Why not spend this time working at Cedu, where you will learn first hand all of the mind-fucking techniques, which you so vigorously defend?  It seems to me that this would be a far more beneficial approach towards achieving your goals.

The only reason I can think of to explain why you still come to this site is this: you are completely obsessed with making the rest of us view cedu in the same light that you do.  Any rational person would see this as a futile effort, and would've moved on a long time ago.  Yet you are still here.  Maybe you really do have some sort of psychological disorder that make you a total control freak, as other posters with psychology backgrounds have suggested in the past.  Hell, I'm no psychologist, but it is quite plain to me that you've gone completely BAT SHIT!

Then again, a crazy women running a synanon school, is very consistant with the standard Cedu model.  You might be perfect for the job after all.  

I truly feel sorry for all of your future victims.

.
[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-09-10 07:02 ]
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2004, 10:28:00 AM »
I have a lot of concerns about what has happened to some posters here, especially because it happened in the name of what I consider to have been a good, useful program, at least at the time my son was in it: just because I don't emote to your satisfaction on a web site, please do not assume that I do not.

Speaking of me being presumptuous, what gives you the right to judge my level of concern on such a superficial basis?  Life is not the Jerry Springer show, you know, all sensation and over-the-top declarations, and superficial blurting that passes for real feelings.

I will show my concern in real life, by doing something to improve these programs and, in other ways, to help kids who are ruining their lives because they have lost regard for the value of who they are.

The authenticity of my concern is something that I judge by my interactions with others every day and that is how I will continue to judge it, not on the basis of your constant long-distance and may I say, not terribly objective, evaluations in this forum.

Thanks, but I'll leave what you apparently view as a correct "one-size-fits-all" style of theatrical caring to those who are better than I am at playing to other people's assumptions.
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2004, 10:29:00 AM »
Not with a spitting master like you. And I don't have any interest in, or hope of, silencing anyone.

The truth is an absolute defense against libel, isn't it?, if you are speaking the truth, not making wild perposterous comments, such as that someone may be tampering with witnesses, the comment that was directed to me in the exchange in question, then you have nothing to fear, at least as I understand the law--it is true that I have many lawyers in my family but I am not one.

Anyone objective reading my comments and your comments here can easily look back on anything I've said, and judge for themselves what my position is.  For the ones who are not objective or pretending to be, well, I don't really care what they think or what they stretch the truth to say, as a way of slamming me.
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Offline Son Of Serbia

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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2004, 02:36:00 PM »
Like I said before, someone questions your motives for coming to this site, and you threaten to sue!!! Desperate O5, very desperate.

The idea that someone who plans to open up a school modeled after Cedu would come here to tamper with potential witnesses in a criminal investigation of Cedu, may not be as far fetched as O5 would have the rest of us believe.

Now before you have a hissy fit and call your lawyers on me O5, allow me to state for the record that the next few paragraghs I'm about to write are pure speculation.  I do not know Ottawa5 personally, nor am I aware of her true motives.  I am in no way suggesting that O5 is here to tamper with potential witnesses or any other illegal activity, again I am engaging in pure speculation here, so humor me.

Hypothetically speaking:

I know that if I was planning to open up a school modeled after Cedu, I would be very concerned about the outcome a criminal investigation against cedu school.  A criminal conviction against Cedu would be extremely damaging to the prospects for success of a future school modeled after Cedu's program.

Can anyone here imagine how difficult it would be to lure potential investors into such a school, if the program it is modeled after (cedu)was found to be guilty of criminal abuse in a court of law?  No one in their right mind would throw their money away on something like that!

Futhermore, how many responsible parents would send their kids to a school that is modeled after an institution that was found guilty of criminal abuse?  It's a no brainer, a criminal conviction against Cedu would smash my chances of ever getting my Cedu-like school off of the drawing table.

Now of course I could lie to my investors and to my future clients regarding the origins of my emotional growth program, but that in itself would be illegal, and could possibly open me up to a plethora of lawsuits and criminal charges, should the truth ever be discovered.  No, I wouldn't want to take that risk.

I know myself,I am someone who would do anything to acheive my goals.  If starting a Cedu spin-off emotional growth school was my main goal in life, then I would certainly feel threatened by a criminal investigation against cedu. I would view this website and the posters here as an obstacle towards the realization of my goal.  I would do everything in my power to prevent criminal charges against cedu being brought to court.

One approach that I might take to prevent cedu from going to court, would be coming to this site, and trying to persuade potential witnesses to believe that the abuses they suffered never really happened, or at least convince them that these abuses are not representative of the Cedu program as a whole, but rather the work of a few misguided and poorly trained individuals.

Again, I've been speaking hypothetically of course.  But bearing what I've just said in mind Ottawa5, maybe YOU should take a second look at some of your previous posts.  It may help you discover exactly what led people to believe you might be tampering with potential witnesses in the first place.
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2004, 05:44:00 PM »
Really SOS,you ought to start a business supplying mystery writers with interesting plots.

Look, where illegal things have happened at one or more CEDU schools, I want those schools held legally accountable.  Maybe you would, as you say, do anything to reach your goals, but that's not me, if something is dishonorable, I'm not going to do it, there is always another, better way, if you look hard enough.

But having said that I want any illegal things that went on at CEDU prosecuted, I reiterate that when an emotional growth program is run well, with kindness, insight and discipline, I believe (and have seen) very good things come out of that kind of program.

I am aware that you don't believe this, but I do, and I am not going to deny what I know to be true simply to be popular at a web site.


Bottom line: I really don't think that CEDU is going to be shut down any time soon. I think that this is just wishful thinking among the relatively small number of ex-students, etc. who post here. Everything that I am aware of, and I study this stuff from many angles, makes me believe that the views I hear at this site are not the only views and not the majority view by any means.

Do you remember a few years ago there was a widely covered story out of California about some 16 year old kid who got put in a boarding school outside the US?  The kid was able to make a phone call to a neighbor who contacted the police saying that the kid's rights were being violated because his parents were sending him by escort to this school against his will. While the kid was at the school, the neighbor pursued trying to get the courts to order his return.

The case was heard before a California judge and promptly dismissed on the grounds that the parents had the right to make this decision.  At the hearing, the court room was packed with parents of students and graduates of the school who came, some from very long distances, to testify to the positive difference that the school had made in their experience.

Now I don't remember which school this was, although a little searching in news archives could probably locate it, and I don't even know if it is a good program, or if it is still in existence or anything else about it.  But this happened several years ago when there was much less realization that teenagers sometimes need to be restrained from doing harmful things and that parents must have the right to stop certain behaviors (you can tell that public opinion has moved away from an attitude of allowing minors to do as they please, in any number of polls, they're not hard to find).

I just don't see anything that suggests it's realistic to think that these programs are going away.  But where there have been real abuses, I am completely with those who want the perpetrators punished.  Just like I would be for supporting liability in any other industry for companies that break the law, while still seeing the value of the existence of the industry overall.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2004, 07:19:00 PM »
How do you hold people accountable for subjecting teens to experimental 'therapy' that is condoned by the majority of americans who believe punishment is 'therapeutic'? Surely, you have studied the pros and cons of behavior modification. Highly controversial and potentially very damaging. I have witnessed programs make changes through the years, when they finally decide that x technique is inappropriate or abusive. The very best one could hope is that they continue to change until there is no more BM in any program. But, then, how will they 'control' the teens? Because the ones I've had experience with understood very little about how to be in respectful relationship with teens.

Do you think you could make a difference in teens lives without the use of BM? Or do you plan to employ the same techniques?

There's a good thread on the THI forum for you to consider:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... um=9#60610
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2004, 11:33:00 AM »
Deborah--I owe you a long post, I believe, and since I am waiting for my son and his girl-friend to arrive, this might be a good time.

I want to address this phenomenon of "behavior modification" that you keep referring and to point out that it existed long before there were emotional growth schools and also long before there was psychology.

When you convinced or demanded or coerced your 4 year old child to wash his hands before dinner when he didn't want to, you were in fact modifying his behavior. Although, hopefully, you could convince him to do so, without having to carry him to the sink screaming, even if you couldn't, over time you would presumably persuade him that germs exist, it's yucky to be dirty, etc, and then his thoughts would follow his behavior and he would start to motivate himself to clean up before eating.

So I would bet, in this or other scenarios, that if you are at all a responsible parent, you have used behavior modification already.

Now of course, it becomes more complicated as a child gets older, because part of growing up is learning to make your own choices, judgments and also mistakes, so that as a child grows, a responsible parent starts to give a little growing room.  And as an adult, that child will have a broad ability to think through and reject washing his hands or a great number of other things that you may tried to teach him.

But what about when an adolescent child gets so off track, either because of parental, individual or societal issues (or some combination thereof), that there is a clear danger of physical and legal ramifications?

You, I understand, would just let this child run amok and put your faith in reasoning (even when the child was refusing to listen), and the virtue of offering complete freedom (to someone who will likely use it for potentially serious self-harm).  I am not talking here about, say, a child who wants to be adolescently obnoxious,eat too much candy or who wastes his allowance: natural consequences, while painful to the child, are not going to do serious harm. I am talking about a child who, at a developmentally reckless time in life and in a reckless frame of mind, is doing seriously self-endangering things. I would stop it and you would not: we reach no common ground at all on that point.

Now, there is no question that behavior modification can be used for evil purposes, or could be used with too much force or punishment to justify its application---there at least we can agree.  Where we disagree is whether an emotional growth experience is an evil purpose.  Some of the stories I've heard here, and I have no reason to doubt them, suggest, again, that you and I could agree that at some schools, or at some times, the techniques being used were excessive, certainly for some students.

So, to answer your question, if you have a school that teenagers must remain at, by its very nature, this involves modifying behavior, since the child would like to leave (this being a behavior) and cannot.  In this way, yes, I think behavior modification will be part of any program which addresses kids who are determined to leave.  Other aspects will probably be what you would condemn for being coersive, such as having to perform certain activities to get certain rewards, having to follow rules, and so on.  I think that I would adopt more reward systems, perhaps, than I've heard about in the current schools,so as to make the requirements more palatable and less resentment inducing, until the kid comes to the point of seeing the logic behind them and starts to think about and accept that there were reason why he was sent to the school in the first place.

On the other hand, I would not, for example, absolutely require attendence at a propheet until the child was ready to agree to it.  From what my son tells me, most everyone that he was with, looked forward to the propheets, but many people here hated them. I have a sense that even if they were not required peer pressure and the availability of caffeine at them (which I hear was a big selling point in attending) would probably encourage most kids to participate.  For those who weren't ready, it would perhaps to better to wait.

So hope that's clear, get back to me if it isn't.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2004, 05:41:00 PM »
Yes, punishment and rewards existed long before psychology expanded on them to develop techniques for modifying behavior. Parenting is not ?behavior modification?. The role of adult is that of teacher, guide, or role model. The former is disrespectful, the latter is not. Rewards and punishments have never been and will never be a replacement for aware parenting. Programs employ these techniques for two reasons. They have more kids than they can genuinely care for and because reward and punishment is easier- requires less thought, just follow the textbook, any Joe can carry it out. It is a default method of parenting when one doesn?t know how to foster a respectful relationship with a child.

I perceive a distinct difference between teaching, guiding, modeling; and behavior modification.  In the example of the 4 year old you gave, one would be teaching through modeling- if everyone washed their hands together before a meal. In most households I?ve observed there is a double standard. The child is expected to wash while the parents don?t.  If the child refused, I would assume that there was some unrelated physical or emotional issue that was interfering with her ability to be cooperative- given that I believe that a person that has inner happiness/contentment is cooperative, even 4 yr olds who also want to participate in what the group is doing. In general, I believe that kids will behave better if parents abandoned BM and focused on the underlying issue of the child?s unhappiness/discontent.

So, everyone?s washing their hands and the 4 yo refuses. I have two choices. I can coercive, bribe, threaten punishment, deny her food at that meal- employ BM. Or I can recognize it for what it is- is she overly tired? Is she not ready for the transition from play to dinner? Or does she have a need to get some stress off. I?d deal with all three differently. Tired- probably wash them for her. Not ready- put her meal aside until she?s ready. Stressed- I would simply take her hand and restate that it?s time to wash up. I would do this for two reasons, consistency in teaching and to intensify the underlying feelings so they can come to the surface and be resolved. If it?s an issue that I feel is important I am not going to negotiate, or bribe. Chances are good that she is going to cry. I listen. If she falls on the floor, then I put washing hands on hold and expect to listen for a longer time. Invariably, the underlying distress is going to be vented and she will then be able to return to her cooperative self. I can?t tell you how many times, in a similar scenario, the child has vented about something that happened earlier in the day that was distressing. IF, I am not in a space to listen, I might distract her with some humor to get her laughing, knowing all the while that I have only temporarily suppressed some feelings that will most assuredly surface with the next frustration or request for cooperation. Carrying a four year old to the sink screaming and demanding that she cooperate would not be an option I?d consider.  I wouldn?t try to convince her of the necessity either. Four year olds don?t understand germ theory, but they do like to be a part of the group and do what everyone else is doing- ie learn. When she?s older, she might ask why we wash before dinner. That would be the time for rational explanation.

This dynamic doesn?t get more complicated with age. The process can, because the person can become resistant to venting what?s bothering them.

I can?t think of a situation in which I would send my child to a program. If I took action it would be at home. For instance, put bars on the windows, stand in front of the door and refuse to allow him to leave. If I did this it would not be carried out as a means of control, but for the same reason stated before, to intensify the underlying feelings so they are brought to the surface and resolved. You are going to be the target at that point, and rightfully so if you?ve been a dictator or have been oblivious to your child's real needs; which most parents aren?t equipped to deal with- so some preparation is fundamentally essential to avoid more resentment. If a parent does not want their teen to leave the house to participate in potentially dangerous behavior, they could prevent it. Short of that, any parent can also employ the same BM techiniques the programs use at home. The question remains unanswered.
Why don't they?
And, why did you hire strangers to do it?

If you are going to hold teens against their will, which is not BM, but incarceration; then the most respectful thing you can do it to TEACH- model, guide how to be in more respectful relationship with others. Confrontation in EG programs and workshops, as I have witnessed it, is in fact an attack, designed to shame, blame, and humiliate a person into conforming. In a word, manipulation. I think it is much more useful to be bluntly honest with compassion.

I don?t believe people acquire genuine emotional growth through rewards and punishments. It is a by-product of being treated with respect in an environment that recognizes the uniqueness of each person and allows many options for learning and experiencing successes; an environment in which inner happiness and contentment, peace is fostered; an environment where people?s concerns, frustrations, fears are heard and appreciated. Have you ever had the opportunity to listen to a teen?s inner most thoughts? While there are those whose thoughts and concerns are no deeper than ?will I make head cheerleader?, many have deep concerns about the environment, what the world be like when they are adults, why the adults around them act so stupid and irresponsible, why the culture fears them, why they are invisible. They have some very valid concerns and fears and rarely a place to discuss them. The ones who are aware are frequently the ones who look for ways to free themselves of their discomfort and are considered a problem.

Emotional growth is not a by-product of a BM warehouse where teens are isolated from their families and subjected to irrational rules and expectations which carry hurtful and unreasonable consequences.  While rewards may induce less resentment, the teen is aware that they are being manipulated, and there is not always going to be someone dangling a reward in front of them when they are out in the real world.

Has it ever occurred to you that it could be very beneficial to allow the teens to design their own community? Allow them to create the rules, or at the very least, participate in the process? Research has shown that people are much more cooperative when respected this way. Allow them to determine how THEY will deal with a member of their community who is not pulling their load in terms of chores? If and how they choose to pursue an education? Could you support such an environment? Could you facilitate this process?

Personally, I don?t see any benefit in bribing a teen until they start to ?think about and accept that there were reasons why they were sent to the facility?. That is a major problem with this standard MO of all programs. It never is entirely the teen?s fault. It focuses on their behaviors as the problem rather than the underlying fears, concerns, resentments, insecurities, and general bullshit they might have been reacting to. One of these are always present when someone is not at peace with themselves and others. In effect, to incarcerate a teen is to indirectly say they are being punished for the way their underlying feelings manifested- how they reacted to their environment. That is an inaccurate beginning assumption. For most, it is the assumption that the teen is acting consciously and maliciously. If you start with that assumption, everything you do will be useless in terms of aiding another human being in regaining their peace of mind, dignity, and self worth.

I appreciate this professional?s take:
In conclusion, ultimately it is the regulatory ability that leads to our success as individuals in society. Unfortunately too many parents themselves lack the mature regulatory system to be effective regulatory teachers to their children. The parents therefore seek professional help and the professional often times enhances the state of dysregulation by being child behavior-centered. When this is occurring the child is often blamed, labeled, and the behavior given repeated consequences, in worse case scenarios, the behavior is medicated or the child begins to act out to such a degree that he is placed in residential treatment. As long as there is not a parent willing to take the responsibility to communicate the necessary regulatory lessons, the child will not develop the necessary effective regulatory skills.
==

To that end, I think it would be extremely challenging for any program to teach self regulation, and do so in a useful way. It would require a paradigm shift away from reward and punishment, a very carefully designed program with master facilitators who are there to guide the teens? decision making process and offer suggestions when inevitable mistakes are made.

I think that if someone was successful in creating such an environment for unwanted, distressed teens, it would be hugely successful. It would grow quickly, displacing the BM industry; which would die a natural death and not a minute too soon.

Yes, we are paradigms apart in our thinking. I don't expect to change yours but I hope when you are desiging your 'program' that you stop ocassionaly and think about what respecting a teen might look like.


[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-09-12 15:24 ]
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Offline ottawa5

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« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2004, 09:46:00 PM »
Why do you think toddlers get toilet-trained, kids eat with utensils, children learn to listen when instructed?? Do you think that these are natural phenomena?  No, they occur because someone, usually their parents, start to mold their behavior in a certain direction.

Now, the problem with you is, for some reason, you think that this very normal thing, something, in fact, that it is any parent's responsibility to do, is somehow bad.  Sounds like old, recycled thinking from the 60's to me; at least in that time period, it was intellectually interesting to consider a "no limits" approach to child rearing, because the harm that came from this kind of approach had not yet been acted out in the real world.

Of course, where possible, even with the smallest child, you use reason and persuasion, it is more pleasant for everyone and a good model for future reasonable interaction as the child grows up. Self-regulation and reasoned discourse is the ultimate aim, and it is to be sought, earlier, rather than later.

It is, however, not always possible, in an instanteous sense, you might just as well face it. Sometimes a child wants to run into the street, strike a baby sibling, eat something poisonous.

By all means, explain and reason, but the immediate necessity is often a cessation of the behavior, perhaps with explanation after the fact as well as before.

I think that you and I would agree that emotional warmth and openly expressed love are centrally important to making the child understand the reasons why his/her instantaneous wishes must sometimes be over-ruled. But it is a necessary part of growing up to learned that there are in fact limits and that it is the parental role sometimes to enforce these limits. Some parents, perhaps you are one of them, have had to learn, to their deepest regret, that this is a lesson that adolescents need to function in the world.

I often think that what parents need most is not education or even knowledge, but courage.  By that I mean courage to do what they know at a gut level is normal and good. Too much of the way of thinking that I find myself ascribing to people like you seems, by its very nature, to undermine that normal parental instinct toward love and discipline.  

Since you have been so kind as to offer me numerous websites to consult, over the past weeks, let me suggest that you read Neil Postman's "The Disappearance of Childhood" (I am just that kind of antiquarian who prefers books to websites). It spells out the importance of differentiating between adulthood and childhood in a societal as well as in a personal sense.

I do not believe that you are a malevolent person by any means, based on your writings, I do think that you are somewhat naive, at times, about human nature and the duty of parents to act like adults in the parent-child relationship.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2004, 02:00:00 AM »
O5

 I think its only a matter of time before someone strikes a blow against CEDU, and I wouldnt be suprised if it was a major one. You have to keep in mind 05, that theres hundreds of people who claim to have been abused in one form or another while attending CEDU,alot of these people come from VERY wealthy familys,familys with alot of  power. Like I said before its only a matter of time until some big shot lawyer infiltrates CEDU, theres probobaly more law suits going on right now than you'd realize, and whos to say what the outcomes going to be? Its not like the amount of people who claim to of been abused while attending CEDU is depliting its only growing, and growing rather rapidly at that. So while the number of abused kids and lawsuits rise, the chances of CEDU getting away with its unlawful behaviour for much longer grows slimmer by the day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline van_islander_hedican

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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2004, 02:02:00 AM »
van_islander_hedican
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »