Author Topic: My Opinions  (Read 20933 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2005, 04:03:00 PM »
AA is not a cult. And to let you know, Aa is for the most part still a voluntary program. Yes some are sent there by court order, but all of the people I know who go go because they want to. and after 6 years of AA I can tell you thats alot of people. See you keep nitpicking certain things about these programs. They arent perfect just as the people who created them arent. But they do help and they are constantly shifting and changing to be better. I know when I went to AA alot much of it didnt have to do with the liturature. Yes it was a nice guideline and alot of the things in it are hel;pful. But the fellowship is why so many people use this tool. Because they can see they are not alone in this and they cna see they can do well because others there are doing well too. Guess what. Everyone has to do things they dont like. Boo freakin hoo. I hate paying bills but i do it. i hate paying taxes but I do it. I hate driving the speed limit but I do it. Well heres a good example. Say your theory that no one should do anything they dont want to was put into effect. How do you think humans would handle that? Do you really think people would still follow rules? Hell no! They would do what they felt like and we would have a society where people could do drugs in the streets, drink when they want to all day, beat their children and wives (or husbands) in public and there would be no consequences to their actions. Do you believe that we belong in a lawless society? In a ego driven world? Well for the most part, we kinda do, just becaus ethe peope who make the rules break them the most, but without consequences for their actions people could do whatever they felt like. OUr society has rules for a reason. Do I think all of them are vaild? Of course not. I personally believe that pot is not a very dangerous drug. time will tell, but cigarettes and alcohol are way more dangerous than pot and they are legal. Now in my perfect world people would be able to smoke pot as a recreational drug such as alcohol. Or if their going to make it illegal why not make alcohol and cigartettes illegal too? Dont they kill thousands of people a year, not to mention cause the economy problems because of all the health problems each of those drugs cause? But our society is hypocritical and apparantly needs these things so much that even their own governments cant stop them. I mean there are always rules we dont like, but I'm not about to go out and break them just because i dont like them. Soem rules are there for a really good reason. like drunk driving rules, and the speed limit, and even paying your taxes. Not that the tax money always goes where I think it sould go, but that it the system weve got. That is how we pay for schools and roads. So when kids dont like the rules of the program and think they are nitpicky, that rule may be dumb but its there for a reason. Like in the program girls used to plug the toilets just cause they wanted to, so they made a rule that you couldnt have more than 7 sheets of paper at a time, as that is enough for one trip to the restroom. If you needed more you could ask. Now that may seem dumb to you cuz not everyone isgoing to clog the toilet, but to the person who keeps cleaning up that mess, it means alot to them. So the rule wasnt there to torture us or anything. It was there so that people didnt have to keep cleaning up other peoples poop. There are many other cases in life where the rule may seem dumb but it makes sense if oyu think about it. Like how some schools have uniforms. Kids get way too freakin caught up in cloths and styles and even kill each other over wearing the wrong thing. So schools thaught that if you wore the same thing that would eliminate alot of the need to single others out for their cloths and maybe those kids would focus on school (What a shocker considering thats why they are there in the first place.) and less on what they look like. Now I agree that a person has a right to express themselves in their clothing, but those who take it to an extreme ruin it for those who dont. I think they will express themselves better when they arent focused on their image or looking cool.
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Offline alternativa

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« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2005, 05:33:00 PM »
I have no problem with AA. I have problems with people being forced into it. Frankly I think it's about the only thing that is effective--but not when people are forced.

Rules, zero tolerance, society has gone mad for conformity. FIne. It's all yours.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2005, 05:55:00 PM »
It doesn't appear that you bothered to look at the links provided in this thread. Bottomline- AA has a 2-6% success rate. Alcoholism is NOT a 'disease'. To affirm on a daily basis that one is powerless is not useful or therapeutic.
Educate yourself, or not. It's a choice.
A woman passed through my life for a time. I really liked her... except that everytime we were together she mentioned her 'disease', affirmed her powerlessness, and/or quoted from the Big Book. I personally saw nothing to distinquish her from rabid fundamentalists I knew. Same dogma, different 'church'. Church of the hopelessly powerless.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2005, 06:13:00 PM »
Ok, do you believe that a person will always figure stuff out on their own? Is that the case with you? Do you never need someone to point out to you something your doing that you may not see yourself that isnt working? I mean I know for me that is the case alot of times. Sometimes people have to kick me in the rear to get me to see htat something Im doing is not working for me. Sometimes I need a shove back into a positive stae of mind where I can ratianally think about something and so my depression dosnt cloud my ability to see straigt. And when people are court ordered to go to AA, they are not forced to do a damn thing. They could sit and listen to thir stereos all through the meetimg if they wanted to. They dont have to listen. All they have ot do is go and get the form signed. But I do know that some of the people who are "forced" to go and dont listen and just go cuz they have to are not doing so well. Like my sisters ex fiancee. He deffinetly has alcoholic tendancies and after he got drunk one night and told my sister he was going to kidnap her and his child and come over and hurt her, he was ordered by the courts to go to AA for him to be able to see his child. He refused to go and guess whaT- He is still doing the same stuff he was when that happened. He dosnt care that everything could be taken from him. he loves drinking too much. Who knows- maybe if he went he could have gotten a different perspective and sterted to change his life. Too late now. It is kinda funny that you think I want conformity. If anything, its the radical conservative Christians that live in my city that want that. I think rules are good. I dont think everyone should be exactly the same, but I do think that if something someone is doing is going to physically harm or kill someone else, than yes, they should have a consequence for that action. I know alot of people who have no rules or boundaries in their life and therefore are unhappy because of it because they dont know how to balance themselves. I think it is ridiculous to think that no one should ever follow any rules. That would be total Anarchy.(an extreme) Nor do I think we should live in a society where everyone is forced to do everything the way a person tells them to.(another extreme) I think a healthy balance of rules and freedom is needed. Alot easier said than done, yes, but I think at least on an individual basis this can be accomplished. People should be able to make their own choices but have to realize that with all choices come consequences. Some good and bad. Someone who is wasting their life on drugs and alcohol has more than just legal consequences too. Thier relationships detririorate. Somethimes their job suffers. Sometimes their school suffers. Their healt starts suffering. I mean yes they can make that choice, but why is it so bad to show someone in that position a better way to live. Your not talling them they have to, but your showing them that the way they always thought asbout themselves or others may not be accurate. Alot of it stems from self esteem issues. aAnd being sober and working on your life helps you to gain some back. So what is wrong with showing them that they dont have to drink or do drugs to be happy? That they dont have to abudse their mind and body to feel normal? That they can function in life and htat htey can be successful and that they are worth something. That seems like a good thing to me.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2005, 06:19:00 PM »
Last I heard the jury was still out on alcoholism as a disease or not; genetic or not. Statistics provided are meaningless. One thing about AA is that it does not prey on desperate people. The rehab business is booming as is the behaviorial modification business. As far as I can see--they're just moneymakers.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2005, 06:30:00 PM »
Like I said... you didn't read the links.
There are far more useful and effective ways to 'help' if/when the person desires help. It's unfortunate that AA is considered the primary, most times the only, approach to the issue. I was very disappointed to learn in my counseling class that alcohol/drug counselors must refer to AA. Why, If they know something else is more effective? I think it gained acceptance due to it's support of zero tolerance, because the stats certainly aren't there to support efficacy.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2005, 06:34:00 PM »
***The rehab business is booming as is the behaviorial modification business. As far as I can see--they're just moneymakers.

I think they are very similar. Most rehabs employ BM as well, including AA.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2005, 06:38:00 PM »
Your right. I didnt and for good reason. Statistics are falable, just like people. i believe in life results rather than what soem biased group says about a subject. you cant deny my results and the results of those around me. Say you like it or not, but actions speak louder than words. I have seen people fail yes, but I also see them come back when they need the help. it is the one thing in their lives that they can rely on the be there and to not judge them. You can argue semantics with me all day and we will never agree, but there are studies that say alcoholism is and isnt a disease. I believe it is. Are you an alcoholic? If not than I dont see how oyu can say it is or isnt a disease just becasue some studies say it isnt or is. The proof is in the pudding so to speak. When you are an alcoholic, you understand your addiction a little more than someone who has never been one. I know that I can never drink socially. And that helps me to understand that this is something I just cant do. Now that Ive had the experiences with alcohol that Ive had, I hate drinking and it isnt that hard for me to stay quit anymore. But I do have the occasion where i wish I could drink normally. But my results are the same with alcohol every time no matter how hard I try the self control thing. Now comparing someone believing in their program to a radical fundamentalist is a little extreme. When you are really a radical fundamentalist, you believe so strongly in what you think that you do everything in your power to change others into your belief system. Now if she was trying to force you to do what she was doing and believe everythign she believed without respecting your beliefs or opinions than she was wrong for that. I beleve though that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if it works for them dont knock it. You can state your opinion but you cant say shes wrong for what she beleieves. If that is what helped her was to show you what she is doing in her life and talking to you about AA and what she believes about it than that seems healthy to me. Friends do that. Not all my friends agree with me. Actually it is quite the opposite on many levels. Religiously, politically, ect. We have debates about it but i never make them feel stupid or wrong for believing what they believe. its called tolerance. If I were beig like a fundamentalist than I would say you are stupid and wrong and ignorant. But I dont think thats true. I dont really know you so its hard to say why you believe these things. All I know is you have an extreme dislike and intolerance for my point of view and it seems you are unwilling to look at things from more than one perspective. Actually of all the people being intolerant and judgemental and self rigteous, it seem s like you are being more so that way towards me than me to you. i respect oyur opinion and would never say what oyu said was Bullshit. I think you are entitled to that. I also think that unless you have walked in a recovering persons shoes and have been through these things yourself, it is hard for you to really amke any rash decisions about what you believe about programs and AA and alcoholism. I mean deffinetly correct me if I'm wrong. I would love to hear if you have these issues and found some other way to live a haelthy life outside of treatment.
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #83 on: March 26, 2005, 06:43:00 PM »
In case anyone is wondering this is my friend. She is another graduate. I invited her on this forum so you all can gain insight or even hear a different opinion from someone else. She has insight I don't posess. I am not an addict. However I do understand the basics.

Deb,
 That is how far you can see. We have a different opinion. We see an organization that has helped. It didn't cure us we decided to cure us. However it did help. Do we agree with everything? No. You see, we know.  [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-03-26 15:46 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #84 on: March 26, 2005, 06:49:00 PM »
I believe you are right about one thing. If soemthing isnt working try soemthing else. if AA dosnt work than something else might help. I would hope that your professor wasnt suggesting that there are no alternatives to AA. And if they were than yes they are wrong. But if AA could help that person what is wrong with trying or suggesting it? Isnt it a tool just like therapy. I actually have  afriend whos Mom just grduated to become a therapist and she is considering doing alternative therapy. More htan just the mental but the physical too. Helping people become aware of their physical and mental well being. I think thats super! Great! I think there are many ways to get help. But why knock a way that works for alot of people. When they say AAs success rate is so low, do they say anthing about the people that come back? That dont stay "off the wagon" so to speak forever? I mean how can you see the future. They may relapse now but who know whaqt will happen in a month? I knwo when I relapsed I didnt stay gone forever. I eventually came to my senses because of all Ive learned in my life and recovered. Thats why I say it is more complex than that. Statistics can only prove so much. Plus you dont know how many people they were taking into account when they did the studies, how many people were honest in the study. I knwo they didnt study me so theres one alcoholic unaccounted for in these studies.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2005, 07:04:00 PM »
Its funny you say that because there was an article in the local paper about how the rehab buiseness is NOT booming and less and less people are getting the help they need and going to jail instead. Yes the rehab business makes money. but that dosnt mean that the things that you learn about yourself in therapy and Aa and treatment programs are invalid. Medical care is expensive and everyone needs it at one poin or another. It may seem wrong to charge people the help them but you also must take into account everthing from the expense of paying for the hospital to the equipment paying hte doctors ect. I also know therapists that charge based on income and if you just cant pay they do it for as much as you can when you can. Can you imagine the dedicaiton of living that way? Try paying your bills off 5 dollars an hour. Now that shows compassion not a money makign buisness. Plus those hterapists spend uber amounts of money on school and have alot of dedicatin to their practice. They can charge what is fair. Now with a program, there are more expenses than just paying the therapists. Theres food, clothing, staffmembers, housing, electricity, heating, teachers to pay, ect. That cant be cheap. I do think it is alot of money, but for me I know I was worth it. And when I spend money on therapy now, i know its good for me and I dont mind paying for it. It s alot cheaper than paying for booze and cigarettes and drugs every day, let me tell ya! Plus I dont mind spending money on what will help me for my future na dmy well being. And that goes for alot more in my life than just my addiciton. I spend my money on things that I dont always want to like bills, but such is life. When it comes down to it Id rather spend the money on therapy than drugs.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2005, 07:41:00 PM »
***All I know is you have an extreme dislike and intolerance for my point of view and it seems you are unwilling to look at things from more than one perspective.

Excuse me... I have read your lengthy posts which espouse the same rhetoric that all AAers say. It's not 'new'. Did you bother to read the links I posted? No. Who's unwilling to look at more than one perspective. I'm very familiar with your perspective.

***Actually of all the people being intolerant and judgemental and self rigteous, it seem s like you are being more so that way towards me than me to you.

Odd perception.

***I also think that unless you have walked in a recovering persons shoes and have been through these things yourself, it is hard for you to really amke any rash decisions about what you believe about programs and AA and alcoholism.

I have, as have many in my life, and have never attended an AA meeting. The only AA meetings I attended were with the woman I spoke of. It went with the territory if you were her friend. If you made plans with her, she was sure to stop off at a meeting on the way to or from the destination. She knew where every meeting in town was and what time. I also went a couple of times with a friend at college who asked if I'd go with her. I've demonstrated ample tolerance.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2005, 07:56:00 PM »
***I would hope that your professor wasnt suggesting that there are no alternatives to AA.

It wasn't a suggestion. He stated that if you were an alcohol/drug counselor the ONLY acceptable/ethcial referral you could make was to AA. And that's what you'd do if you didn't want to risk being fired. Your friend's mom will not be refering to or doing alternatives if she works as a drug/alcohol counselor unless she is in private practice.

I don't know any therapist who works for $5 an hour and I have many as friends.

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-03-26 16:59 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2005, 08:32:00 PM »
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

People who believe it's bad luck to have a black cat cross their path don't believe in statistics either.

Neither do people who frequent professional palm-readers.

Neither do habitual gamblers in Las Vegas.

Neither do teenagers who practice the "rhythm method" of contraception.

Neither do people who answer chain letters.

Neither do people who take advantage of marvelous business opportunities that they hear about through email from Nigerians.

Neither do people who draw to an inside straight.

People who "don't believe in statistics" are  what the con men call an "easy mark."

You are probably a very nice lady, and I'm glad you are apparently coping well with your life, but being math-challenged is almost as a great a disability in the modern world as being mad.  It's something people can cope with--many people do.  I just wish you wouldn't wave around not understanding statistics as if it were some kind of badge of honor.  It encourages others who still haven't given up on math to do so just because it can be hard.

The only way not to believe in statistics is if you don't understand them.  That's why I say you're "math challenged."  At least about statistics, you apparently are.

Not everybody can be good at math.  But understand that if you aren't, it's a difficulty you're working around and overcoming, not an asset.

Saying, "I don't believe in statistics" implies that people who don't understand them yet and find them a bit difficult oughtn't to bother with them anyway because they're useless.

*That's* what makes the difference between a Mark and someone who just has trouble with math.  The Mark believes his lack is not a problem, the wise but math-ignorant man or woman *knows* it's a problem and is therefore extra careful of situations where that ignorance could hurt or allow people to take unfair advantage of him/her.

Statistics *matter*.  If you don't understand them, you need to get periodic "reality checks" on the issues from people you trust who *do* fully understand the statistics *and have researched that topic and actually looked into those statistics*.  The key questions with statistics are: who says so, how does he know, and is he pulling any of the common tricks used to present statistics in a misleading way.

If you can't tell that, that's okay----but instead of just writing it off, you need to get someone you trust who *does* "get" the math to check out the issue and tell you what they think, and then you need to trust their advice.

It doesn't help to take the advice of someone who is extremely sincere and trustworthy but doesn't get the math either. :smile: :smile: :smile:

Being an easy mark is not a good way to get through this life mostly unscathed.

Timoclea
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2005, 08:40:00 PM »
Oh bother! Another religious debate over stepcraft.

If/when ya'll want to talk about WWASP methods, will you do me a favor and start a new thread? I really can't take yet another rendition of this discussion. (and I'm sorry for having taken the bait in the first place)

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.
--John Adams, U.S. President

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