Author Topic: My Opinions  (Read 21019 times)

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Offline alternativa

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« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2005, 12:34:00 AM »
Oh, but I agree with you about the parallel. Adolescent behavior has been pathologized.

Moreover, expectations are higher for children these days, but society is set up less and less to accomodate them. Ironically, I found NYC a much safer and healthier environment than suburban CT. That's how I started checking these programs to begin with. I was looking for a place that might be beneficial to my son until we moved back to NYC (3-4 mos). He will still probably go back to military school, but he can come home every weekend and ride the train with his friends. Unless he can get his GED this early--in which case, he can get a job.

Personally I think that the demands of education these days are pretty much over the top as well.
Interestingly, all the major inventions of the 20th century were made by high school drop outs. Henry Ford only had a 5th grade education. Einstein also dropped out, and though the world might be better off without cars and the bomb--it's hard to dispute the ingeniousness of the inventions.

100 years ago a lot of "troubled youth" would have gone off to sea like Joseph Conrad, Jack London, or Herman Melville. One can only imagine where Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer would have been sent. And though Holden Caufield ended up on the analyst's couch--today it'd be tranquility bay. And then there's Rebel Without a Cause....
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2005, 02:49:00 AM »
Um...sure Alternativa. Well fortunatly CCM was no where near to being a concentration camp. The holocaust survivors that I know have a grateful outlook on life. They always tell me to appreciate even the littelest of things. There are still some who are shell shocked. With good reason of course. Now, the program is not as bad as people make it out to be. I know plenty who have been successful and plenty that haven't been successful.
Military school. I hope it helps him. I don't know what he's done to be put in military school. I would not have made it in military school. Compliancy is easy. What I gained at CCM was the ability to think positively and see the world differently. Is it brainwash? I'm sure you will say it is. I say it is insight. Because of the "brainwash" (I say insight) I am happier. Military school would've just angered me even more. I needed to deal with my past, present, and issues. If I hadn't I would not be who I am today. Nowadays I deal with what comes my way. Issues are always going to be there. The differance nowadays is that I work through and with them. To me undealt issues are cancerous. I don't ever want to feel the way I did when I was 16 or even before my teen years. People don't deal with issues as much as they should these days (in my opinion). If they did there would be a lot less crime and negativity.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2005, 04:09:00 AM »
My son is an affectionate charming boy whom I can't keep in school, and the law requires I do so. Military schools (real ones, at least) require a certain degree of discipline--like you have to go to class, wear a uniform, and keep your dorm room clean for daily inspection. Other than that--it's really pretty easy. You can come home every weekend,bring back food and contraband on Sunday nights, you can have phones, computers, etc. They have real teachers whom you can talk to and parents can drop by the school any  time. Dorm rooms are never locked--and anyone can walk out the door. The kids are pretty cool but you are right, they don't deal with issues. It's about academics and leadership. My son went last year. The experience didn't change him excepting he picked up a love of philosophy and he refined his ability to con people. But I didn't want him changed--I just wanted him to get through the 9th grade.

But I must say--this website has really opened my eyes. I am glad you are happy with your life and I am glad you are happy with your school, but all of you people who liked these programs sound uncannily alike. Ironically, the testimonials to the efficacies of these schools and programs are more damning than the testimonials that are meant to be damning. It's the same recording over and over and over again.

I am a parent who was considering a summer wilderness program and Ivy Ridge or something Creek in Montana were recommended. But those people are whack. Anyone who thinks I'm going to turn over my kid AND my money to a school I've never seen is a nut case. Then I came to realize they were all the same--these schools and wilderness programs--and all roads led to Utah. I think these schools are the scariest and most shocking things I've ever stumbled across in the American landscape. Okay, some are offshore.  

I would like my son to finish school, but I don't want him to be a zombie. I don't want him spouting program drivel. I don't want him to be abused and humiliated and shipped off to God knows where for over a year. I don't want to go 6 months without talking to him. NO. I flatly refuse to even entertain the idea and I'm horrified that these schools even exist. This isn't to say I can't understand how parents get roped in--I do--but after being roped into progressive education and whole language reading, I'm not as vulnerable as I used to be.

There are no other wedsites like this about other types of schools. Don't you realize that? But you're right. I am completely closed-minded. I base my principles on the French Enlightenment, and I'm just not going to be convinced EVER that there are better principles than that.
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Offline alternativa

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« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2005, 04:10:00 AM »
the above was from me--i forgot to log in.
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2005, 04:58:00 AM »
French enlightenment. Interesting. My parents are French. Anyhow, "you people" that's rich. No really. Us people huh? Ok, well you people are the same as well. "It's brainwash. It's child abuse. I'd never send my kid off to a concentration camp."
Different methods work for different people. The program helped me. It didn't save my life. I saved myself. School was never difficult for me. I rarely attended classes and still got straight A's. That is until they made attendance part of the curriculum.
If military school works for your son then more power to it. As for me I needed to deal with all my inner demons. I kept it all inside until I exploded all at once. Rape, death of family, death of friends, adoption, teen pregnancy, violence, and more are the issues that I hadn't dealt with. My mom tells me that she knew that there was something very wrong with me the day her brakes failed and we almost died. She was screaming and I never flinched. Didn't care if I died or not. That's a fear of most parents. I was dead inside. I didn't care if I died (I secretly wished for it). What became a problem was my taking it out on others physically. My parents were physically abused by me as well. But instead of divorcing me they tried one last thing. Would I be dead (you know the whole dead or alive thing?)? Probably not. Then again maybe so. Maybe I would've gotten worse and killed myself. Don't know.
Well all that "brainwash" ended up doing me a favor I guess. I'm more successful than people my age and older. I am happy. Again how many people these days are truly happy?
But you've heard all of this "jargon" before right? Of course you have. To me it's not jargon. It's a wonderful thing. Because I don't doubt myself or what I've been through what you say doesn't matter to me personally. However it does matter in a sense that people who haven't been through it themselves (I'm including the parents who had kids in the program) won't ever understand. They may empathize but that's it in my opinion.
There are teenagers who get through these awkward years unscathed and successful. But to those who are extreme cases I feel for them.
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Offline The Graduate

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« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2005, 02:52:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-03-24 01:58:00, Perrigaud wrote:


There are teenagers who get through these awkward years unscathed and successful. But to those who are extreme cases I feel for them. "




The fact is the vast majority of teens get through these "phases" without any major intervention. In fact, look how many people have been through these teen lock up facilities, then honestly try to tell me you think so many of us needed the "help". Even if the reports of physical abuse you find hard to believe. Can't you concede that accepting such large numbers of teens is an abuse of their power? These people are playing on scared parents fears and taking LOTS of money and locking up many children who don't need it. Is that not abuse?  I know dogs at the boarding kennel who saw more sun light a day than I did. The fact is even if YOU needed the program the fact that at least 50% of the other children there didn't is abuse.

Oh I also noticed that when Alternativa mentioned you sounded so much like the other progam advocates you immediately started on how you were on you way to death....hmm are you trying to prove her right?
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2005, 04:27:00 PM »
Ok, here's a story from `98. I don't know what, if anything, has changed at CCM in the mean time. Since good ol'e Kar insists (as he always has) that nothing needed to change, I'm guessing nothing significant has changed.

http://www.teenliberty.org/school_horror_story.htm

It's hard to read due to an error in the page, so just copy and paste the whole thing into a blank document (Word, notepad or whatever) if you want to read the whole thing. Here are some excerpts:

The initiation:
Quote
When she first got to the school, Catherine said, she was strip-searched, then dressed in drawstring
pants and a sweatshirt, and given a thin mattress on the floor. She said she was watched all night.
"I never went to sleep that night. I laid in a ball and cried all night," she said. "The next morning, girls
came out of doors everywhere. They put on their uniforms, brushed their hair and didn't talk or make eye contact with each other. They called 'silence' and no one could speak."
Catherine said calling "silence" was a way the school kept the girls from making friendships. For the
first few weeks, she had a "buddy" who never left her alone, and every room was guarded by staff
with walkie-talkies.

Ok, so they're taking great pains to not allowe the girls to influence each other or communicate in a normal, spontanious manner. So where do they get their influence?

Quote
"I never believed in brainwashing until I got there," she said. "My therapist told me I'd been raped
and molested as a child. Over a period of months, he built this up in my mind. They had these
three-day seminars and put us in a room and told us all we had done wrong. Girls would bang
themselves on the ground, and say they hated themselves and actually believe it. I was in
therapy after I left this place because they messed so much with my head."

And the spin (what passes for balance in most of the media)

Quote
A Cross Creek Manor administrator tells a different story. In it, Catherine, rather than a victim, is a manipulator who mistook discipline for abuse.


Or maybe Kar is a self deluded manipulator who's been mistaking abuse for therapy for decades now.



for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.    
--Alexander Hamilton



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Offline alternativa

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« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2005, 05:48:00 PM »
I very much recommend  books by Primo Levi and Viktor Frankel.

Also a wonderful novel called ?Hester Among the Ruins? by Binnie Kirshenbaum

The following
Links will give you an overview and I?m sure you will find many comparisons to your own situation. Interestingly,  20%
of children of Holocaust survivors have PTSD.

Interesting parallels here

http://www.holocaustechoes.com/5robinson3.html


suicide

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:4F ... sion&hl=en


Survivors guilt

http://www.holocaust-trc.org/glbsurv.htm


Forum for children of holocaust survivors

http://remember.org/children/children.html

holocaust survivors and children

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Io ... ptsd&hl=en



 reporter from the Chicago tribune writes an article on his mother who has ptsd

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/ ... &cset=true

amnesia in holocaust survivors

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:q1 ... ptsd&hl=en
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2005, 11:55:00 PM »
I was just reading the conversation between Ashley and the annonymous person who thinks programs are "whack". I'm reminded of a story my Mom told me when I was about to graduate. My Mom had the hardest time sending me off to Cross Creek. She was really scared because she heard all this talk about how they brainwash you and all that. Plus she thought it was totally odd that she couldnt talk to me. She called my therapist like 30 times in 3 days demanding to talk to me or she would take me out. My therapist told her she could come down and see me anytime to make her feel more comfortable so she was off to Utah to basically take me home. She was so intent on this. When she got to Utah with her brother she went with my therapist to a room outside the courtyard to look at me and discuss things with my therapist. She said she was looking and looking until she saw this sad looking girl with her hair in her face by herself in the corner. Considering this is the precise description of me at home before the program she was convinced it was me. With her hopes of my improvement fading she turned to her brother and pointed me out. My therapist said, "Thats not her, that's her over there." She said she saw me and instsntly knew that the program was working for me. She said the dull glaze in my eyes from months of drug abuse and depression had faded and a new light was shining. I had a healthy glow and a lighter step. And I acutually walked without looking down constantly. She could see the confidence jusst beaming and knew that I had finally discovered that I was worth something. I was finally not afraid to be myself and live my life without fear of thinking others were making fun of me. And i actually cut my hair so i could stop hiding behind it. You know I hear alot of negative crap about the program but I tell you what. I don't agree with all the nitpicky rules. I didn't love every moment there. It was a challenge. A challenge I think most of you who hate it might fear more than try. No one has ever made me do anything. If that was the case and I was brainwashed then how come after i came home, I relapsed into a horrible binge of drugs and sex and alcohol? How come the success rate is so low? How come I've had to watch the friends I made there slowly relapse into meth and alcohol and all that? It's because it is a choice. It is always a choice. I was never taught anything other than that I am a deserving, honest and beautiful person. I NEVER believed in myself. i thought i was the most hideous person in the world. I cut myself. Drank too much. Smoked two packs a day. I smoked pot all day, not to mention the other drugs. I surrounded myself with people who expected nothing of me so it was easy. I never challenged myself in school, never went to school. And I was sad when I went away. I cried the whole way to Utah. But not because I was mad at my parents, or missed my friends, or missed being able to smoke. I was so sad that my life was this out of control and I had always known it. I knew it when I'd wake up in the morning and would pray to god to help me. I just wanted to be happy. I just wanted to try anything to not feel like I was worthless. And I knew that this was scary and I didn't know what to expect, but I knew this was the right thing for me. I'm not saying all programs are perfect or right. I just know that the one I went to was right for me. And I think it is unwise to make assumptions about this particular program unless you have gone through it.
Amanda
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2005, 12:06:00 AM »
uH... Ashley? I was reading the end of your sentance about jargon. Ok. The program Jargon is kinda stupid but i have to say, sometimes when I'm in those moments (you know, the ones where you feel like something so bad has happend or is happening to you that you cant ever imagine being happy again) that I think of that stupid jargon and I am reminded that life isn't so difficult. Look at the AA saying "God never gives you more than you can handle." And guess what. Soon after I graduated the program, I didn't even say any jargon. It's just when your in a situation (AA, recovery program, ect) where you are learning about that stuff, you tend to use it alot and then when your around people who don't speak like that more often it goes away. Like with an accent. You still speak the language but you accent changes around different surroundings. And besides, if it helps countless alcoholics and drug addicts, desprate to survive the night without a beer or a hit, then who are you to criticize and judge a tool that helps them. Just because it's not how oyu talk dosn't mean its wrong or stupid.
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2005, 02:45:00 AM »
"If military school works for your son then more power to it. As for me I needed to deal with all my inner demons. I kept it all inside until I exploded all at once. Rape, death of family, death of friends, adoption, teen pregnancy, violence, and more are the issues that I hadn't dealt with. My mom tells me that she knew that there was something very wrong with me the day her brakes failed and we almost died. She was screaming and I never flinched. Didn't care if I died or not. That's a fear of most parents. I was dead inside. I didn't care if I died (I secretly wished for it). What became a problem was my taking it out on others physically. My parents were physically abused by me as well. But instead of divorcing me they tried one last thing. Would I be dead (you know the whole dead or alive thing?)? Probably not. Then again maybe so. Maybe I would've gotten worse and killed myself. Don't know."
Where did I mention I was on the brink of death. I said I was dead inside. Please. Just proving that (Im sure not everyone ever gets to this point) I needed help. Therapy? Yeah I had fun lying to them and making stuff up. Hey Amanda glad you could join.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2005, 03:38:00 AM »
So now we have two WWASPies spewing their bullshit here. Interesting.
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2005, 04:11:00 AM »
It's not b/s. It's our experience and opinion. I wouldn't disrespect you by calling everything you say b/s. Interesting you do though. It shows what kind of person you are.
Anitgen: Things have changed a lot since before I went there and after. I never slept on the floor. We had hall moniters but no one staff for every room. I wasn't strip searched either. But that's me it was different for everyone. Ask Amanda some questions and you'll find her views different than mine and sometimes the same.
[ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-03-25 01:14 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2005, 12:20:00 PM »
Perri, Amanda---I don't want to make the perfect the enemy of the good for those of you who were hurting and were helped.

I just want to make sure that the kids who wouldn't qualify for involuntary commitment at 19 aren't involuntarily committed at 15-18.

And I don't want to keep out the kids who are hurting whose parents can persuade them to go, so who go voluntarily and stay voluntarily.  I know a lot of people here are on the other end of the political spectrum and don't like Rush Limbaugh, but him checking himself into rehab, for whatever reasons, is a fair model for voluntary treatment--for the kids who aren't immediate dangers to self or others (who, of course, would then qualify for involuntary commitment).

I just want to keep out the kids who don't want to go, and don't belong there, even though their parents are for some reason wrongly convinced that they do.  Parents are sometimes idiots.  I *am* a parent I know this.  I can be a total idiot sometimes, and I sure know other parents who can be.  There *needs* to be a professional check and balance on our judgement on something as serious as involuntary commitment of a non-dangerous kid.

And I want to keep the kids out who shouldn't be there because the particular program is all wrong for the particular kid's diagnosis and the problems that go with it.

I tend to harp on bipolar disorder, but that's because I can only speak from my experience and what *I* know.  Behaviorist punishment/reward based behavior modification strategies don't work for bipolars and are really disastrous for us.  It's the punishment part that does the damage, because often negative behaviors or failure to accomplish required tasks can be something that because of the disease and the particular phase of it the patient is in or her particular brain damage, the patient has no control over.  When the patient has no control over a "bad" behavior or a "bad" failure to do a responsibility, punishing that lapse causes learned helplessness and breaks the patient worse instead of helping make his or her behavior better.  And it's really hard even for an expert to tell if that particular time the patient had control over his or her behavior or not.

So with bipolars you have to work pretty much on *only* rewards, and they have to be pretty much immediate.  Oh, you *can* allow *natural* consequences for lapses to get through, and you should---but you have to make absolutely sure that the particular lapse was under the patient's control, and you have to actually be right when you think you're "sure"---or you can turn a willing, bidable kid into a nightmare in a hurry.

And you can't hold up functionality as "success."  Functionality is great if you can get it.  Just like it's wonderful with a blind or deaf kid if you can fix that particular form of blindness or deafness with some kind of operation.  But sometimes--actually fairly often---total social security disability is the *best* you can do with that patient and keeping them out of the hospital and safe in the world at least *some* of the time is actually doing *well* for that patient.  And then sometimes you get a Ted Turner or a Jane Pauley who flies so high in this world it takes your breath away.

Cross Creek helped you two.  Depending on how the rules and standards were applied to a particular kid, it could break them a lot worse than they were when they first showed up.  Or, if the particular staff were particularly good at divining when a particular problem was out of the patient's control and particularly good or particularly lucky at stabilizing the kid on the right meds, you could get a *good* result.  It's a *very* tricky disorder to handle.

All I want to see, and I know it's a tall order, is the kids that *don't* need to be involuntarily hospitalized, whose parents are being idiots for whatever reason, diverted into better options for that family.  And the kids that *do* need to be hospitalized matched with the right treatment strategies and competent staff for their particular set of problems.

The *big* problem with the programs is few to no external safeguards to protect the kids from their parents' screwups or inappropriate admission to the wrong program.

And allowing the kids free external communication with the outside world through written letters would go a long way towards adding a fundamental safeguard for the outside world to recognize when a mistake had been made, or was being made, and fix it before any serious damage---or any further serious damage---got done to that kid.

Most kids are poor enough at actually getting motivated to write snail mail letters that the potential abuses or damages just from having outside communication access to anybody they wanted are *very* small.  And the education value of the kids writing letters, however badly, is also a huge benefit.  And the practice of written communication enhances spoken communication skills and enhances impulse control in kids that tend to speak before they think by forcing them to slow down---so they get *practice* at slowing down and thinking about what they're saying.  In and of itself, letter writing, no matter to who, is good therapy for almost any teen emotional or behavioral problem.

Timoclea
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2005, 01:38:00 PM »
Timoclea, one of the problems with WWASP is that that's the only form of communication allowed-- written letters, which are then read and censored by the staff. Free phone access would work much better, in my opinion.
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