Author Topic: How about some damn ANSWERS.  (Read 39703 times)

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Offline Nihilanthic

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How about some damn ANSWERS.
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2004, 06:05:00 PM »
Spots - right now, I'm trying to find out the supposed treatment going on in there. The abuse is going on the back burner until I figure out what the supposed therapy and treatment is.

Like, from what anon told me the seperation and isolation, along with 'emotional growth seminars' are whats used to make the kid and the parent 'grow together' via the program. Is being locked up abusive? Is being forced to play along or you never get out coercive? Are the programs accused of being regressional therapy misused to brainwash?

Absolutely! But the point is - how is it supposed to 'work'? I'm ignoring the accusations and trying to get from them how its supposed to work. What is done while in 'treatment' in the program, or in the 'seminars'.

I'd also like to know why kidnapping and long term captivity is necessary - but I'm not holding my breath on that. It seems being forced to stay in an unpleasant situation and its made better through conformity is all part of the game to them. But if they say thats how it works, then its how its supposed to work, according to them.

If its abusive is another issue. Yes, we're all here to stop abuse, but I'm trying to find out their POV and how its all supposed to work.

If the methods that are supposed to be used are abusive, then thast what reform is for. If they supposedly dont use abusive methods but somehow it becomes abusive anyway, thats what regulation is for.

Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2004, 06:24:00 PM »
Nil - you have such a negative way of looking at things. Not an insult, but an observation.

Using your "engine" metaphor.  I'll say in advance I have little knowledge of how an engine works though I drive a car every day.

Say the engine is missing, sputtering, whatever.  It gets so bad that unless you take it to a mechaic, you risk having it die altogether.  You tell the mechanic what it's doing, in your own words.  The mechanic does some diagnostic testing on it and "thinks" he/she knows the problem.  While working on that problem, another one is uncovered.  It's not something the testing revealed.  So the mechanic works on it, fixing those problem.  Lo and behold, when the engine is started, it isn't getting enough gas and dies.  So the mechanic goes back and works on it some more.  He/she realizes that there are some parts that would make it work better, faster, more fuel efficient.  It's been a challenge, but after some long hours, and the help of another mechanic, the engine purrs.  The mechanic tells me that unless I get regular tune ups, oil changes, the right gas, driving it the way it was meant to be driven...that it could go back to the way it was before.  

I gladly pay the mechanic for taking the time to fix my car and not just fixing the outerproblem.  He took the time to get past the original problem and fix what wasn't seen originally.  If the engine could talk, would it know what the mechanic did?  Would it only know that in the process, it became a finely tuned machine? It would know that some parts were added, but what parts?  It would know that the mechanic used some tools. but unless the engine were a mechanic, would it really understand how it got fixed?

People are not machines and they aren't broken. They don't need fixing.   Yes, in the lower levels, or for me, the beginning, I learned a lot.  Time is what it took for me to apply what I learned.  I can read a book and learn, but do I apply it?  It's the commitment to applying it that takes time.  There are many slips back before it is something that "just is."

What the do in the programs/seminars (are you listening?) is they give us tools to use in our lives that we didn't know we had before.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2004, 06:35:00 PM »
...and the time it takes to make it become a natural part of our lives.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2004, 06:46:00 PM »
You still have not told me a god damn thing.

He plugs a computer into the OBD-II port (or whatever if its an older car) and looks for the codes, and if there isn't one he goes through the list of diagnostics to check the fuel system, spark, bearings, bla bla bla. I know my way around engines.

There is no mystery or necessity for it, there is a real problem thats really fixed. A part is replaced, an injector is unclogged, a sparkplug is regapped or whatever. You can stick your head in there and go "oh, that rattle is a worn out bearing" or "oh, the spark plug wire is ripped". Even a mysterious thing has a reason. Water in your cylinders? Head gasket is leaking.

Yes, you dont know shit about an engine - but you know if you push the pedal it speeds up. Your transmission changes gears for you and it lets the engine spin free when you brake or idle at a stop.

Thats fine and dandy for a car. Its a hunk of metal, rubber, plastic, and silicone filled with air fuel and water. Nobody is going to really care too much if you mistreat it or send it off to a shady mechanic - but you might have your money wasted. Mechanics are rather infamous for making up problems and ripping off customers.

I've had mechanics say they want 1000 dollars to change a clutch! Thats B A L O N E Y. But, I can freely look up how it works *IN DETAIL* and understand totally whats going on. I can buy a chiltons manual or get online, or talk to people, or get out some wrenches.

Now, with kids in programs... there is a lot of mystery. There is a lot of vagueness and generalities being thrown around. I can't open up the WWASPS chiltons manual. I cant take a wrench to a childs head and open it up to look inside.

You still haven't told me a god damn thing about how the treatment works. The mechanic told you he saw a problem you didn't see. Spiffy. Some mechanics lie! There are bad mechanics. They inflate their fees so they get paid more! They take advantage of people who dont know what they do to the car or how a car works for their own benefit.

So, so far all we've seen is that you are, or could be, manipulated by mechanics and programs.

What did they do to the kid? HOW do the seminars give you and the kid "tools to use in your lives you didnt know you had before"? You used all sorts of pretty speech that had absolutely no detail or substance at all.

What. Do. They. DO?

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2004, 09:58:00 PM »
Maybe your questions aren't being answered to your liking, or because you are ripping everything to shreads what is answered.  

What do you want to hear?

What did they do to the kid?  Doing something TO a person is not a good question.  

What do they provide for the kid is a better one.  In your rudeness, is that what you are really asking?

As for the seminars - sorry, you're question was answered as good as it will get.  You'll just have to go yourself to get your own answers.  No one can answer that for you - not avoiding, it's the way it is.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2004, 10:51:00 PM »
I'm ripping to shreds waht is told to me because its BULLSHIT!

I want to hear what is done to or with the kids in the programs. Pick a damn verb, and answer the question. I keep hearing generalized vague bullcrap, or being told they do this or that and they trust that they did it, instead of HOW its done.

"What did they do to the kid? Doing something TO a person is not a good question.

What do they provide for the kid is a better one. In your rudeness, is that what you are really asking?"

Doing something to the kid held captive in there or 'providing treatment' has no difference. Do prisons 'do' incarceration or 'provide it'? Whats the damn therapy/treatment to fix the problems with the child done to or provided for (as if therse a choice...) within the program?

And yeah, you ARE sorry about those seminars. You want me to pay insane money and submit to psychological regression to find out 'the answers' to change my life? Ever wonder why you're accused of being cultish?

Whats the deal in keeping it secret? I've read on intrepidnetreporters and isac and nospank all about the seminars being abusive. I was asking how they're supposed to work to make you make all these changes and give you all these 'tools' but nobody can answer a god damned thing.

What was said to me was ripped to shreds because nobody has yet to answer my question! Dont tell me the program identified problems and fixed them, tell me WHAT problem was, WHAT was did to fix it, and HOW it was accomplished.

Whats stopping a straight answer from being given? Huh? If I sound angry or frustrated its because I AM. After months or years involved with the program and ALL The money you gave, you should have learned what they were doing to your kid and be able to tell someone!

If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education

--Thomas Jefferson

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2004, 10:57:00 PM »
:flame:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2004, 01:59:00 AM »
:roll:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2004, 02:02:00 AM »
Are Niles and the above Anon -regarding the dishwashing, etc., adults?
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2004, 02:33:00 AM »
Ummm... I wasn't saying anything about 'washing dishes', it was the anon.

And yes, I'm an adult.

There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2004, 11:00:00 AM »
Perhaps a volunteer from ISACs could take the seminar and report back the details of the experience. You won't get the details from a programmer- they like the element of surprise. More effective when one does not know what is going to happen, when they are caught off guard. They aren't going to tell you the details, but bits and pieces can be found in threads on Fornits.
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2004, 11:01:00 AM »
Battle for the Mind: A Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing

The Manipulated Mind: Brainwashing, Conditioning and Indoctrination


Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves

Combatting Cult Mind Control
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Offline Perrigaud

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« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2004, 12:10:00 PM »
I'm back. Well N, seems you have got to  read a little deeper. So far what has been said is what you needed to hear. I will be back tonight to elaborate on my specifics. That way you can have more insight.
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Offline Helena Handbasket

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« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2004, 01:31:00 PM »
There seems to be a common theme of disinformation and redirection when you ask for concrete answers.  Come on over to the LIFE / Growing Together forum... check it out... see if it's about the same damned thing!!!

Pretty Scary   :scared:
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uly 21, 2003 - September 17, 2006

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2004, 02:29:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-26 18:58:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Maybe your questions aren't being answered to your liking, or because you are ripping everything to shreads what is answered.  



What do you want to hear?



What did they do to the kid?  Doing something TO a person is not a good question.  



What do they provide for the kid is a better one.  In your rudeness, is that what you are really asking?



As for the seminars - sorry, you're question was answered as good as it will get.  You'll just have to go yourself to get your own answers.  No one can answer that for you - not avoiding, it's the way it is.  



"



This reply is so vague as to be worthless, and the other replies missed vital detail that should *not* be violative of patient confidentiality.

What you *should* be able to say is:

What happens at a typical intake, what sort of physical situation the kid is in (what's the room like in terms of temperature, furniture, appearance, comfort level), what sort of physical contact the staff have with the kids at this level, what sort of procedures are done to deal with the kid's clothing/personal effects--and if there are such procedures, what's provided in exchange, in what circumstances and how much the kid sleeps, in what circumstances and how much and what the kid eats, what hygienic facilities are available and when and under what conditions of use/privacy they're accessible by the kid, when the kid first meets a member of the therapeutic staff and whether the atmosphere/technique is confrontational or supportive, the training of the various therapeutic staff a kid will encounter, who evaluates the kid to determine what problems he/she comes in with and what training that person has and what effect it has on the child's living conditions and treatment plan.

Then when you get past intake, we need to know all that same information about physical conditions, sleep, specific rules and punishments, how frequently the kid has contact with the therapeutic staff and how those staff are trained, the training of any staff who carry out restraints, the various treatment modalities the therapists are trained in and the average proportion of each therapy strategy that is used.  What proportion of therapy is supportive in tone and what proportion is confrontational at each stage of the program.  Whether group therapy is used, whether the kid has a choice about whether or not to do group therapy, whether group sessions are geared to be supportive and confrontational in tone and what limits, if any, are placed on confrontational encounters in group.

What amount of unpaid work the kids do, and the nature of the work, in detail.  How long they spend doing it and whether it is ever allowed to interfere with regular food and sleep periods or conditions.  How much time and in what temperatures and weather the kids are outdoors, and what steps are taken to protect the kids from the elements.  What reading material or recreational equipment is available to the kids, in what stages, and how much time the kids have available for reading, art, music, and PE.

What amount of time is spent on academic subjects and the details of what the student/teacher ratio is, whether the teachers are certified or what their credentials are, what the facilities and materials and resources are for the schooling portion of the program.

These are kinds of detail that former program kids who are critics of the program routinely provide, and former program kids or parents who approve of the programs skim over.

For the seminars, a general description of the room and its comfort level (temperature, seating, etc.), duration of sessions, frequency and duration of any breaks, whether the nature of the presentation of material is informational or emotional---or what proportion of each.  Access to food and drink---is water available or sugary drinks, or both.  Are snacks sugary or heavy carb, or a balanced mix of carb and other.  Are drinks and snacks controlled, or are there vending machines with a fairly normal range of selections?  Is there background music to any part of the program?  What's the lighting like and does it change at any point?  Are there any slideshows or anything like that?  If there are visual aids, what do you remember about content and colors?  Are participants encouraged to discuss personal experiences and personal life details in front of the group (perhaps by a few people starting off as examples, or by one of the presenters sharing personal experiences or details).  How would you rate the peak intensity of emotion you experienced at the seminar on a scale of 1 to 10?  How much do you feel you learned that changed the way you looked at something, on a scale of 1 to 10?  How difficult is it for you (or perhaps anyone) to put what you learned into words, on a scale of 1 to 10?  Was it clear that most people in the room approved of or supported or congratulated some statements made (or experiences recounted, or accounts of choices made) by seminar attendees, and lamented, disapproved of, or commiserated with others?  Did you develop a strong feeling of empathy with the presenters or any of the other attendees?  On a scale of 1 to 10, how strongly did you feel a desire to stay in contact with the presenters or some of the attendees in the following days and weeks?  Did you stay in contact with any attendees or presenters that you met at the seminars?  Out of all the time you spent talking to people socially or about personal things in the weeks and days following the seminar, other than your spouse or children, what percentage did you spend talking to presenters or attendees from the seminar?  What percentage of that time did you spend talking *about* either the seminar or the ideas covered during the seminar?  On a scale of 1 to 10, if you feel the seminars changed your life, how *much* do you feel they changed your life?  Did you cease contact with anyone with whom you were personally, professionally, or socially in contact with *before* the seminars because of their attitude towards the seminars themselves, what you learned there, or any changes you made in your life related in any way to the seminars?  If you ceased contact with someone, how many people did you cease contacting or reduce contact with.  How important were each of those people in your life before the seminar, on a scale of 1 to 10.  Did you ever recommend the seminars to anyone?  If so, how many people, roughly, did you recommend them to?  Did anyone attend the seminars on your recommendation?  Did the seminars, singly or collectively, cost more than one month's salary for you or your spouse?  If so, how many months' salary did you spend on the seminars?  Have you attended another seminar in the past six months?  In the past twelve months?

We don't necessarily need detailed answers to *all* of that, but I listed as many relevant questions as I could think of off the top of my head to give you examples of the *kinds* of detail that would be very relevant to me at least, and I think to others, in forming some kind of mental impression of what these seminars are like.

Timoclea
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