How about some damn ANSWERS.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-27 08:01:00, BuzzKill wrote:

"Battle for the Mind: A Physiology of Conversion and Brainwashing



The Manipulated Mind: Brainwashing, Conditioning and Indoctrination





Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves



Combatting Cult Mind Control"

Buzzkill, did you attend any of the seminars?  Can you give us a first-hand account?

[Anonymous]

http://isaccorp.org/documents/seminar_murders.pdf

[Anonymous]

http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... eaking.htm

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-28 08:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/breaking.htm"

I just read the whole thing.  Holy fucking shit!!! :scared:  :cry2:

[Anonymous]

Her follow up a year later:

http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... lile2.html

[Anonymous]

Old news. We have seen this before and pesonally from reading the 1st one, i think this women is very unstable and has major problems and that is most likely what led to her chiilds problems.
All you people do is bring up old news.
Anything new??The one that cares

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-28 14:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Old news. We have seen this before and pesonally from reading the 1st one, i think this women is very unstable and has major problems and that is most likely what led to her chiilds problems.
<

Well, then I guess there is no point in going any further.  If you can read that and say that SHE is the one with problems, then all rational thought and critical thinking is lost on you.

[Nihilanthic]

On 2004-12-28 04:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I agree what else does this parent need to tell you and all the kids that have been through it and not hateful and revengful. You simlply will not allow yourself to believe that kids are actuall getting help at these schools, and anyone that tells you different is a programed robot. Just nuts! Thank you to the parent for shraing, it helps me feel even better about what I do. The one that cares"

Ok buddy, let me explain what the issue is with what you said. Now *LISTEN*.

We are NOT going to JUST BELIEVE ANYTHING. Ok? I'm not a trusting, accept-what-i'm-told, turn the key and push the pedal kind of man.

I want proof, I want evidence, and I want UNDERSTANDING. I know EXACTLY whats going on in my car no matter WHAT I do with it when I drive. I know EXACTLY how every system within it works.

I was asking the nitty gritty of the programs. I'm not going to just believe that it helps them! I want to know HOW and WHAT. I cant pop open the hood on a program, or a persons mind, can I? No!

I wanted to know what the processes and treatment  and punisments were suposed to be in the programs. I wanted to know how why what, etc, they were going to work.

People who give detailed info and answer the accusations are not going to be called brainwashed. People who say "it just works" and "they're lying when they accuse" I will accuse of being programmed.

If you'd re-read this thread a lot of what I got was vague, general bullshit. They didnt tell how the changes were made, what the therapy was, etc.

Perrigauds stuff is a step in the right direction, however. And something you must realize is mystery  isnt going to be tolerated in 2004 (almost 2005) when its used to 'fix' children's minds and there are credible accusations of abuse.

If hearing generalized bullshit makes you feel good about what you do then fine. Frankly I find that pathetic. I would not be satisfied with myself in your job unless I knew exactly what was going on in there. And I would not kidnap kids just because some parent signed off on something If an expert deemed it necessary, yes. I seriously doubt any appreciable group of them NEED it!

Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its
best state is but a necessary evil ---in its worst state an
intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same
miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without
government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we
furnish the means by which we suffer!


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679433147/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Thomas Paine, Common Sense

[Antigen]

On 2004-12-28 14:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Old news. We have seen this before and pesonally from reading the 1st one, i think this women is very unstable and has major problems and that is most likely what led to her chiilds problems.

Really! Care to elaborate? What, exactly, about this article lends to your diagnosis? And do you use the same basic method to determine whether or not a kid needs your services? Whether they require handcuffing or pepper spray or just a little smooth talk?

All you people do is bring up old news.

Anything new??The one that cares"

Has anything significant changed about these seminars since this writing? No? Then it's as fresh as a daisey to anyone who hasn't read it before.

No gods, no masters.
--margaret Sanger

[Anonymous]

One who Cares?
Cares about What?
Not honesty or integrity or accountability or decency or kindness or compassion.
Cares about What?
Profit margins and Plausable deniability would be my guess.

So its old news - What has changed?
Not a dam thing.
"Old News" is the Same crappola you spout about the Desperate Measures articles. But Nothing has changed - except Ken is now back in your employ; spouting your mindless propaganda and laughing all the way to the bank.

I agree with the post questioning your ability to think and reason in a rational manner. How can read that and not understand whats taking place?
Proof it works, I guess.
Or proof of what it is you Care so much about.
See above.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-28 14:35:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Old news. We have seen this before and pesonally from reading the 1st one, i think this women is very unstable and has major problems and that is most likely what led to her chiilds problems.

All you people do is bring up old news.

Anything new??The one that cares"

Let's get this out of the way first.  peRsonally, womAn, chIld's.

Now on to more important points.  What would make you write a statement like that.  What, specifically please, did she write that would cause you to deem her "very unstable"?  I really would like an answer to this.  It would shed a great deal of light on your point of view.  Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-28 10:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Her follow up a year later:



http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... lile2.html"

I have a question.  This was written back in 1998.  When you consider the shear numbers of parents and others that have attended since then  - why haven't there been more than maybe a handful of people that objected to it?  
In all the pages of her personal account, the only thing that came up for me was that she didn't feel she needed to be there.  She felt it was about her kid and not about anything she had to do with what happened.    What a lot of time and energy she put into writing this.  It may have been "therapy" for her to do so, who knows.  She had a wall up so high and so thick that any threat to chipping it away, a seminar, a person that disagreed with her at work, whatever, was going to get the same results.   She wasn't ready or open and that's okay.  Out of the 100 or so in the room, what percentage agreed with her?  What percentage of the several thousands after her, agree with her?  I'm sorry she had such a bad experience, but why try to make everything else believe it was bad or whatever?

[Anonymous]

Challenging, Stimulating, Thought-Provoking, Creative Tools, New Choices, A Catalyst For Action.......That's Discovery!
Discovery is a high intensity personal effectiveness seminar designed to impact the quality of your life. Through self-directed examination, you will discover how to reinvent attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors which directly influence your personal and professional relationships. Learn to utilize the power of choice to virtually reshape your perspective on every area of your life.....past, present and future.


Discovery is an experiential-based seminar where personal exploration is achieved through large and small group interaction, one-on-one process, visualization techniques, and facilitator-driven lectures. Self-disclosure and feedback are integral to the Discovery process. The interactive nature of Discovery allows participants to experience a greater sense of investment, inclusion and ownership in the processes as well as the outcomes.

Those who have participated in the seminar report greater closeness in their relationships, greater energy in their quest to achieve their dreams and goals, and an increased confidence to participate in life. Discovery is facilitated by highly trained professionals and will provide you with new perspectives on:

Achieving a greater degree of intimacy and support in your personal relationships.
Gaining a clear sense of purpose and direction in order to impact the quality of life.
Enhancing your self-esteem, self-confidence and credibility with others.
Gain greater awareness of what it means to expand your realm of choices with regard to critical life situations.
Learn to interrupt unconscious mental and emotional cycles which tend to sabotage results.
Initiate a greater level of clarity about what drives your decision-making process.
Discover the power of risking beyond fear and other self-imposed limitations.
Learn to use feedback as a creative mechanism for producing results and getting through to others.
Regain the experience of joy and spontaneity in the pursuit of everyday life.
Experience renewed levels of energy in both your personal and professional endeavors.
"What the seminar did for me was to refocus me on the priorities of my life"
"Never had so much fun, tears, and joy in such a short time in my life"
"My life was working well before the seminar, now it is working great"
"I am 19 and feel for the first time I know me and where I am going"

"It saved my marriage and my family, no other way to put it"
"My boss asked me what have I done this weekend. He saw a huge change in my attitude about work, me, and life"
"My parents gave me the training, I thought they must have felt I was messing up and needed fixing. Now I know they wanted me to get a jump on the rest of the world.

[Anonymous]

Niles wrote; Unless you are under hypnosis, scared, or stupid, you will remember what they did with (or to) you in the seminars, and how you felt. You can tell us what it was like. You walk in, you sit down, you do this, you do that, this is what you felt, this is what they said. Stop giving us all the vague, general, feel blablabla you have to be there blablabla "fear of the unknown". Fear of the unknown isn't why I dont wish to experience rape or abduction - its a conscious choice to not have to experience emotional trauma and injury.

#####################

As far as I can tell, you compare changing your life for the better (attending a seminar) to rape?  Yes, it certainly is a choice to not experience something you have control over, however, I've yet to meet anyone who had control over being raped.  

I will never again recommend that you go to a Discovery, Focus or Keys to Success seminar.  There is no way in hell that even with a blow by blow description of everything that I experienced, learned, did, etc., that you'll understand in words. You will never understand unless you go, and since you don't want to make an investment in yourself, you never will.

As a Harley rider I know has on a t-shirt: "If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand."  Only a Harley rider can understand the passion for what they ride.....and only a person that has actually been IN the seminars can understand what it meant.

Get over it.

[Nihilanthic]

Ok... that long post up there about the seminars is a press release or a advertisement from one of the seminar websites. - In otherwords non specific baloney. STOP DOING THAT. SPECIFICS. Are you dense or just trying to avoid having to answer?

Now, as for comparing a seminar to rape... no, I didn't. I said I choose not to experience one because I know its traumatic. As far as I know the seminars work with emotional stress. Experiential seminars work via psychological regression. This crap 30-40 years ago with similar seminars is well known if you know where to research it. The differences between them are not very signifigant. Its still pathological bullshit.

I do not compare changing to rape. I dont have a wall up around me to prevent me from learning new things. Saying theres a wall to be 'broken down' and the associated trauma as the only way to 'change' in those seminars sounds really fishy.  

*** There is no way in hell that even with a blow by blow description of everything that I experienced, learned, did, etc., that you'll understand in words. You will never understand unless you go, and since you don't want to make an investment in yourself, you never will.***

Oh god, you're hilarious. You say I'm not 'investing in myself' (as if I'd use your program jargon?) by not submitting money and my psychological wellbeing to a regressional seminar?

AND you use a T-shirt slogan as your excuse for not explaining to me? :rofl:*LOL* :rofl:  You're amazing. Giving me bull like that as your excuse for not explaining how the seminars work speaks a lot about them and about yourself. Some people DO need explanations. I'm not so trusting as you - and thats not a flaw.

Unless the seminars are nothing more than sensitivity training and you just believe in whatever they want you to, just like the stuff I read about -  you could easily give me a blow by blow, and I could easly understand it. They do things in there for a reason. LEGIT therapy can be fully explained and understand. I dont have to go through extreme emotional distress to know it can make me sensitivie to suggestion - plenty of people who went through it and actual psychologists who CAN explain it said it did.

Excuses to forego explanation and avoid criticism might work in a church but is totally wrong when dealing with how to treat kids, especially if its used to avoid criticism in light of accuastions of abuse.

If I'm mentally trained to be able to observe the seminar and not be affected by it, I'll gladly go there and give it the criticism it needs.

FYI - I read an article by researchers who went to a similar seminar and said it was hard to do their job because it kept trying to influence them. "I know" and "I believe" does not cut it in the real world, bub. Prove it, or shut up.

Our country has deliberately undertaken a great social and economic experimanet, noble in motive and far-reaching in purpose. [The Eighteenth Amendment, enacting Prohibition.]
Letter to Senator W.H. Borah
--Herbert Hoover (Feb 28, 1928)