Author Topic: The I and Me/The Summit  (Read 13584 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #90 on: October 12, 2005, 06:37:00 PM »
hey man it's all good. i felt bad for the kids who didn't have a chance of getting out unless they graduated. i'm not saying you're a weak piece of shit for doing what you had to do to get the fuck out of there! if they're gonna play games with you, play the game right back!

i'm saying that the weak ones were the ones who thought that they had to give in and accept everything that was being spoon fed to them as truth. which happened so much. shit, most of those kids didnt wait until the fucking summit to let that happen. but the summit seemed to be the ones that got the kids who managed to hold out for that long.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #91 on: October 12, 2005, 08:50:00 PM »
Look, he's smirking I think he's kidding, guys. Read it again as satire and tell me what you think.

I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #92 on: October 12, 2005, 08:51:00 PM »
This...
Quote
On 2005-10-04 17:20:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I remember that. It was awful looking at the people that I had become so close with and trying to make a choice of who lived or died. I think that was the worst part."
..., on the other hand, is creepy!

What, did you really think the person you named would drop dead or something? It was all theatre!

With soap, baptism is a good thing.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

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The I and Me/The Summit
« Reply #93 on: October 12, 2005, 09:24:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-10-12 15:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"hey man it's all good. i felt bad for the kids who didn't have a chance of getting out unless they graduated. i'm not saying you're a weak piece of shit for doing what you had to do to get the fuck out of there! if they're gonna play games with you, play the game right back!



i'm saying that the weak ones were the ones who thought that they had to give in and accept everything that was being spoon fed to them as truth. which happened so much. shit, most of those kids didnt wait until the fucking summit to let that happen. but the summit seemed to be the ones that got the kids who managed to hold out for that long."


Hmmm. If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, is that you are saying that people who bought the program line while they were at school were the weak ones, instead of calling bullshit and not buying it? Even if you are joking, you bring up an interesting point.

I had to get over that line a long time ago. I used to tell myself that: That I was totally weak because I bought in so easily to the program and believed all of their crap. I always said to myself "How could I have been so stupid?" "What does that say about my character that I was such a pussy?" I finally just said, "Oh well, what was, was. I'm a pussy, I guess." At least I know it's full of shit now and have moved on from all that ridiculous angst and hanging on to all that stupid, pointless, baggage. Chalk it up to a learning experience with some bruised ego along the way.


There are people who argue that depending on when you were at the school also depended on how easy it was to resist the "thought police." I don't know anything about that and which dates were the "easy ones" vs. the "hard ones", or if it's even true at all. All I know was I was at RMA in the 80s, I was young, had ostracized myself from my peers back home, and I wanted to fit in and be accepted at this new place. I "broke" within the first week of being there. (I was the last person to fill out my peer group, so I went through the truth at the end of my first week.) For a long time, I wasn't proud of how easily I caved in, but I've come to accept it as whatever it was, and I'll give myself some slack in regards to it.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #94 on: October 12, 2005, 10:18:00 PM »
nah, i'm being completely serious. thing is, you raise an interesting point yourself. when comparing CEDU of the 80's to CEDU at the turn of the millenium, you really have to remind yourself that your essentially comparing two completely different schools. when I read the posts of people like serb and yourself, i just can't compare it to my own stay. they were totally different. people who gave themselves into the program during my time, i see them as weak. because the program wasnt all that coercive.

so there are two possibilities. either i have leather skin, or the program was just a hell of a lot more coercive in the 80's. as much as i love my ego, i'm gonna stick with the latter.
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Offline TheSummitGives

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« Reply #95 on: October 12, 2005, 10:30:00 PM »
Poppycock! I will not have this vicious slander of such a beautiful experience! None of you are invited to dine with us at the feast of life! But you may earn your way in if you wish. To join us, feeding one another those scrumptious morsels of truth and freedom, you must re-live your fantastic voyage. CLIMB DOWN THE STAIRS TO THAT DUNGEON! OPEN THE DOOR! FREE YOURSELF AND FLY HIGH ABOVE IT ALL MY BEAUTIFUL BUTTERFLIES!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #96 on: October 12, 2005, 10:50:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-10-12 19:30:00, TheSummitGives wrote:

"Poppycock! I will not have this vicious slander of such a beautiful experience! None of you are invited to dine with us at the feast of life! But you may earn your way in if you wish. To join us, feeding one another those scrumptious morsels of truth and freedom, you must re-live your fantastic voyage. CLIMB DOWN THE STAIRS TO THAT DUNGEON! OPEN THE DOOR! FREE YOURSELF AND FLY HIGH ABOVE IT ALL MY BEAUTIFUL BUTTERFLIES! "


Hey! Welcome back Summit! You got a pair of extra long chopsticks for me??  ::bigmouth::

Let's play a game. Let's guess who summit had to be during the costume party. My vote is the wizard of Oz. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Now if you'll excuse me, that's about all the irony I can take for one night.  :razz: (Well, maybe not.)
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #97 on: October 12, 2005, 11:35:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-10-12 19:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"nah, i'm being completely serious. thing is, you raise an interesting point yourself. when comparing CEDU of the 80's to CEDU at the turn of the millenium, you really have to remind yourself that your essentially comparing two completely different schools. when I read the posts of people like serb and yourself, i just can't compare it to my own stay. they were totally different. people who gave themselves into the program during my time, i see them as weak. because the program wasnt all that coercive.



so there are two possibilities. either i have leather skin, or the program was just a hell of a lot more coercive in the 80's. as much as i love my ego, i'm gonna stick with the latter. "


In my defense, there were some pretty tough hombres in my peer group, and even they broke like china in the propheets and workshops. (The ones that didn't, didn't make it past Discovery or early Quest.) They all seemed to really buy into the program at least to some extent. (Two minutes after graduation, however is anyone's guess.) Maybe they were just good actors. I'm sure my head was too far up my own ass to really be able to tell the difference. All I know is that I saw every single person in my peer group truly broken more than once during my stay at that school. It was kind of easy to tell who the "fakers" were when it was time to share, too. But as for how invested they were in the program itself at the time, only they know.

On the other side of that, there were definitely people in my peer group who held up better than I did under the program, and managed to show resistance here and there. (Mostly in the form of humor or snide comments about the school.) I think I was probably one of the ones who fared the worst out of the group I was in. Mainly because I was so hard on myself while I was there and tried so hard to be perfect because I wanted to be accepted so badly. Ironically, I was the omega of my group and the bottom of the food chain. Mainly because of my own awkwardness and inability to socialize properly.

I am unsure how much of it was strict enforcement of the rules or brainwashing power, but also how quickly they weeded out dissent, so those dissenters weren't around to stir the pot. Kids that were resistant and weren't jibing with the program were simply kicked out. They didn't last. Someone like yourself wouldn't have made it to graduation in the 80s. (And that's not meant as an insult, either.) They may have sent you to survival (another orginization) in southern Idaho for a few weeks and seen if that would shape you up, and maybe it would, but that was about it. No Ascent, no NIBH (or whatever the acronym is), no jumpsuits. We had fulltimes, work details, booths. Those were the three levels of discipline. If you really fucked up, you went to survival. If that didn't work, that was your last chance, and you were sent to your "option". (i.e. plan b school. For most of the kids there, it was either CYA or Provo. Mostly Provo.)

Interesting to note, if you check out the cedualumni.com site, you'll notice that a lot of those pro-cedu people are from my time. Just look at the forum archive sometime. I knew a lot of the people who posted in the old forum. Does that mean that the school in the 80s was better?? I dunno.
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Offline blownawaytheidahoway

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« Reply #98 on: October 13, 2005, 10:28:00 AM »
In 1988 what you say was true. I wrote about my experience at survival. It WAS helpful, but the way I see it was it tenderized me. RMA and going back was made to be a reward to me...food. God It was ALL FOOD for me. I was literally starving and for a coupla weeks, it was all good.
Then I got my senses back. What about rights? I didn't wanna be here still, but there was no choice. It was scary and I was PISSED, but I dove in.
Whoever had that comment about having to "act" hit it dead on, If i didn't act (remember the Summit now?) I DIED. I never would have survived if I didn't act. But the thing with me...and I think is was part of the age difference, I DID NOT make a concious choice to act, to 'lookgood' at all, to stop resisting.
I actually tried to explore my personality under the guide of the people and I am fucked up for it. I completely understand the people who wrote that they took on a different identity pretty early on in order to survive- both sexually and image-wise. I was still learning and that was the place and those were the people that were my final influence before maturity really even reached it's later stages.
I went through experiences within the first year after graduation kind of like the person who wrote about being a semi-stalker; (that was really funny and well put btw) Man we didn't know which way was up after getting outta there!
I wish I could have made the psychological split that older (in age and maturity) students made that separated my previous identity from my identity while I was there, and finally after I got out. It would have made a GIANT difference in my entire life. Live and learn.
But I can identify with the comment too about the people who it was easy to recognize they were looking good. And I guess I actually resent them LESS now that I see it in the perspective about just needing to do whatever they had to do to save their skins.
Now whether or not the guy who never talked to me except in getting points for blowing me away in a rap would have been the same guy yanking out my gold teeth and stuffing me into a specially designed Krupps oven in 1944, I don't know.
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Life is a very wonderful thing.\' said Dr. Branom... \'The processes of life, the make- up of the human organism, who can fully understand these miracles?... What is happening to you now is what should happen to any normal healthy human organism...You are being made sane, you are being made healthy.
     \'That I will not have, \' I said, \'nor can understand at all. What you\'ve been doing is to make me feel very very ill.\'
                         -Anthony Burgess
                      A Clockwork Orange

Offline try another castle

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« Reply #99 on: October 13, 2005, 10:32:00 PM »
semi-stalker... you mean what I said in the "missin cedu" thread? (I was anonymous at the time.)

But yeah, all of what I said in here and there jibes with what you are saying. I didn't consciously "act" to look good. It was more like adapting, because, like I said, I wanted to fit in. Totally opposite what I was like prior to RMA. Before that, I was like "fuck you" to everyone, and I acted like I didn't care what people thought about me, but I think I really did. If I didn't, then I wouldn't have been so suceptible to RMA.

The one constant in both environments was that I had really sucky social skills that made it difficult for me to form connections with people. Sure, I had friends in both worlds and those people genuinely liked me and I them, but it wasn't easy socializing with others, and I despised almost everyone in my peer group, even before the pecking order was fully established.

In truth, RMA was hard, but I think some of my own issues that pre-dated RMA, such as my "social retardation"  :wink: and perfectionism made my stay even harder.[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2005-10-13 19:50 ]
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Offline shanlea

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« Reply #100 on: October 14, 2005, 01:04:00 AM »
I don't know. I think most of us were somewhat socially awkward as teenagers.  That's normal. Even popular kids had that hang up. And yes, most of us had issues prior to CEDU, but in an ideal world, CEDU would help its' students, not impede their growth in the real world. But practical help was not on the menu. Besides, many of us would have improved our self confidence with maturity. When I left CEDU, I lost my sense of humor for awhile, took everything way too seriously, and tried to live in "agreement" after I split CEDU. (Which makes no sense.) Of course, no one could live up to CEDU's arbitrary, insular values and I was so wary of people after being emotionally violated that I never learned to put up HEALTHY boundaries.  It was either no boundaries or a wall. Nothing in between. I went from being a drop out pre -CEDU to an honor student-volunteer-work out queen- bitch Barbie.  And you know what? That was just a good resume.  It didn't solve my core issues.  And it took me awhile to embrace what was normal.

Lots of people, even CEDU lovers, say they fell apart after the school, and beyond the obvious,that 1)they never got help for their core problems, and 2)they were disabled from operating in teh real world after being in a highly insulated environment.  But the other thing had to do with the structure.

For example, I had a sleep disorder and periodic episodes of depression before and after CEDU.  I didn't have it at CEDU (and I hated the place) because every minute of my day was so highly structured and either physically (manual labor) or emotionally exhausting, I had no trouble sleeping. I also think the novelty and work and constant challenge of the environment kept you on your toes, in a state of hyper awareness, that fended you from depression. (Well, me anyway.)

But what happens when you leave CEDU and are not worked heavily, physically and emotionally? What do you do when you no longer have an external structure imposed upon you to respond to? You fall back into old patterns. Especially if you didn't learn how to structure yourself. And really, that type of quasi police state structure is not realistic. One monitored phone call every two weeks? Total control of your time and activities moment to moment? Total control of what you could wear, talk about, talk TO, and do?  God, even your thought processes was censored if they ever got to light.
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hanlea

Offline TheSummitGives

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« Reply #101 on: October 14, 2005, 02:38:00 AM »
Shanlea, you made the right step! You should've kept trying to stay in agreement after you left! The agreements are the foundation of life!! They didn't end when you left!

I hope none of you are walking off of paths! And you had better be making sure you have permission to take your shirts off before you play a game of basketball! Are you not sleeping between two sheets? Are you taking more than 5 minute showers?? Are you masturbating?!? If so, you will never enjoy the feast of life!!

How can you expect to live happily if your life is not plumb and square? [ This Message was edited by: TheSummitGives on 2005-10-13 23:39 ]
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #102 on: October 14, 2005, 02:50:00 AM »
Yeah, what the hell IS plumb and square, anyway? I never heard that at RMA. Was that a CEDU thing?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #103 on: October 14, 2005, 02:56:00 AM »
that was like, THE cedu thing. everything had to be plumb and square. perfectly neat. at ascent, if you left your shit in the teepee and it wasnt in perfecy order, and i mean fucking ocd order, they'd make you drag your heavy ass duffel bag around with you all day. not too bad in the summer, brutal in the winter. at bca, if your bedspace wasnt in perfect order...actually, i wont even get into that because it probably was like that for you too. i guess they just didnt call it plumb and square then.

only 3 words i hated more than plumb and square were scrap and stack.
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #104 on: October 14, 2005, 03:09:00 AM »
Oh ok. At RMA the term was "tight". You had to keep your space "tight". (I think I'm remembering it correctly.)

I know. Rife for double-entendre jokes.
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