Are you a believer in Cedu who was there in the 80's under M

[Anonymous]

Only the tiniest portion of survivors from any program,no mater how bad or comparitively "light" post on fornits with regularity. It doesn't make sense to assume they are "beleivers"

I never said anything about anyone being believers. In fact, I said I knew of only a small handful who still adhered to program politic.  I said that the majority have most likely moved on.

sure. Who knows why people don't post? Busy just trying to stay alive? Maybe a lot are dead? Maybe posting on this admittedly often retarded forum just isnt for a lot of people. Post or not, I wish people would leave their testimony with HEAL or ISAC. That would help a great deal...

[Anonymous]

Thanks for responding. What do you think about Manson. I watched alot of his YouTube speeches and I would have no problem believing that he had gone through CEDU or Synanon or something of the like. I'm sure if that were true they would have silenced their involvement with him but it's very curious. CEDU was said to have been started with Wasserman by some hippies like Michael Allgood in the 60's who may have idolized Manson or been associated with the Family - could Manson have actually influence the content for CEDU and/or other programs of the like?

Wasserman told everyone that he had a furniture store and started taking kids in then formed CEDU. He said CEDU meant "see yourself as you are and do something about it". But I've seen it documented all over the web that Wasserman was some sort of "star pupil" of Dederich's at Synanon and formed CEDU as "Charles E. Dederich University". Now which is true?

I was told by a guy who worked (perhaps still wors) for the Cali. Dept. of Education that he was told it by CEDU back in the day it was Charles E. Dederich University.  He said he remembered the name because he often went on vacation near Arrownead lake and knew a lot about Synanon.

Surviors from the early era (pre-rattlesnake) have said similar things as well.  Charles E. Dedeich was also commonly referred to by his initials "CED".  With Dederich's existing established Synanon connections, I find it highly unlikely these things are coincidences or that all these people are mistaken.

I'm afraid that I miss the connection between Charles Manson a henious mass murdered and CEDU. If you read your history books, at the time that CEDU was started, in the 60ish era, people were all attempting to find meaning in their lives and depth. This was a huge drug era which had role models such as the famed Timothy Leary who was encouraging people to "Turn on, tune in, drop out" with LSD. Drugs were popular as were communes and free love.

How ever Mel Wasserman created the foundation of the theory of CEDU, you would have to take a good hard look at the time period it was created to understand the philosophy. While by the late 80's this philosophy was outdated, CEDU attempted to change with the times but was unsuccessful for whatever reason.

While I have gone through my struggles with the CEDU experience, being called this as it was an emotional, physical and intellectual experience, through the years, I have come to this conclusion for myself. There was a lesson or message that CEDU was sending me with their particular dogma. I had a choice as to whether I was going to focus on the messengers (the staff) or listen to the message. 25 years later, does it matter to me who delivered the message as long as I understood it? I taught my daughter many of these lessons in a way that was appropriate to a growing child as these are some of my fundamental beliefs:

Heroes are important.
Having a Dream and carrying out the actions to achieve it are worthwhile.
I truly do want to live and I don't want to risk my life or enjoyment of it by doing things that damage my heart and soul.
Friends are extremely important.
We are all truly our brothers keepers and that would include our neighbor who is struggling to put food on the table for their families.
Values guide us through ethical difficulties and are important.
There are two parts of my being the I (brain thinking rationalizing) and the me (feeling, emotional) these two parts don't always work together for my benefit.
Many lessons to the summit but not enough time to go into depth for any of this.

Now, my parents failed to teach me these things and because of that I wound up at CEDU...also major abuse from these parents as well. CEDU, for all of it's failings or triumphs did take the time to teach these things as this is what they were paid for. While the delivery of the message was many times loud and uncomfortable, I got it.

So here is my voice from the early 80's----I survived it, I learned from it and it helped me to grow as a person and a human being.

[Anonymous]

I learned not to ever be like those people that's what I learned, and I think I should have been in school at 13 learning, not at  some dump called the seed where some drunken comedian was out to get himself a nice piece of pie from everyone else plate. Art Barker is nothing but a worthless drunken comedian druggie, I myself never did drugs.

[Anonymous]

What did I learn during my "Cedu Experience?"  Hmmmm...Well, I didn't come out with an education, but I know how to weave little baskets.  Thanks to Michael and Heather.  Thanks guys, that's carried me far in life.

I learned to communicate with another person, I have to yell, scream, and curse.  Those rap sessions really were helpful.  Not.

I was taught as 17 year-old disgusting sexual horrors.  It never occured to me to have sex with an animal at that age.  Yet, I learned all about that.  

Marcie Padgett told us teen girls about how to get it on, and have a gutt-busting orgasism.  That was so helpful, Marcie.  Thank you honey.  That's just what teen girls need to know about.  Such a whore you were.

Dan Earle taught me that deep down inside, most men are pigs.  Don't trust them.  Most men, like Dan Earle, are compulsive masturbators.  They can't even restrain themselves against female students.  Carmen was right, Dan was a pig.  But then again, so was she.  Glad she's dead.  It's great!

I learned about greed.  About saving money, and not hiring qualified therapists.  Instead, they pocketed the money, and had fucking kitchen staff run rap sessions.  Nice.  :twofinger:

I learned that we were thrown to the wolves by abusive or just plain ineffective parents.  And, that Cedu was nothing but a very expensive baby sitter.  

I'm pleased that Ms. Rizzo came out with so many positive things from her "Cedu Experience."

What the fuck ever.   ::fullofshit::

[try another castle]

Actually, for me, a lot of the "tools" that they tried to teach confused me. Mainly because their interpretation of any of them left little room for the original meaning. for example, the pendulum. To the extent that you feel your sorrow, you shall also feel your joy. It seems to me, after the fact, that Gibrahn was talking about allowing oneself to experience grief when tragedy comes into one's life. If you deny yourself the emotions that come with life's tragedies, you will also have difficulty being truly in touch with your joy when wonderful things happen to you, such as getting married, or having a child, or winning a million dollars in the lottery.. or winning a million children in the lottery... or winning a million married children in the lottery.

Anyway...

That didn't seem to be the way it was taught to us. I learned that in order to feel any joy, I had to make myself suffer, first... and so began our training of thinking that if we didn't run our anger and have a nervous breakdown on a regular basis, something BAD would happen to us..

And as for the brother's keeper... That did little to teach about any sort of real friendship. The harder the truth to tell, the truer the friend that tells it. There is a way to be honest with your friends while still being considerate of their feelings.. which that place did not help us with at all. (Trust me, Ive had to draw the line with friends at times.. diplomacy goes a long way.)

In the IWTL, there was this concept of "supporting your death". What did some of this include? Well, lets see.. Ill take out my full time notebook. It says here that being a fag supports my death.

Fucky darn, it's amazing Im still alive.

First of all, let's be clear. As far as I'm concerned.. the whole concept of "supporting your death" is nothing more than alarmist. It doesn't even address the issue of self-destructive behavior, because nobody there could even agree on what the fuck that was.

After the values propheet, I still had no clue on what values even were.. All I remember was some bullshit about a weasel, and that crazy containment exercise which consisted of about the 300th time I had done some sort of bullshit regression/guided imagery sludge. It really spoke nothing about values, and actually, the whole idea of values is rather abstract to a 17 year old.

So I guess the above could still be categorized as a messenger vs. message issue. But 1. It could have been learned a lot more effectively, and efficiently, in a nurturing environment. 2. Learning about things such as friendship and the like required a lot of UN-learning of what CEDU taught me, which kinda seems to me that the way I learned it to begin with was a complete waste of time. 3. A good portion of the philosophies at school were severely flawed in logic, regardless of the messenger or how it was "taught". Such as the examples below:

The dreams was an unbelievably nasty thing... its primary message was that everything you were before coming to CEDU was totally sinful and wicked, and should be rejected outright. This is why I continue to maintain that this propheet, even though its exercises weren't nearly as traumatic as other propheets/workshops, (and left most people confused more than anything else), imparted the most evil and manipulative message out of all of them.

The I&Me also taught one to live their life in a way that was not only irresponsible, but could be downright dangerous. Thinking is considered the "bad" part of your psyche, while "me" (your id) is the one that is always hurt and oppressed by I. I and Me should work together, with Me being in charge.

Think about the problems this can cause. Keeping a clear head is always preferable to being an emotional mess or a hedonist. It's what keeps you alive. There is nothing wrong with feeling your feelings, but there are a hell of a lot of times in life where you aren't afforded that luxury, and you will need to "suck it up." and let yourself feel that shit later. It's especially important that one doesn't regard these two aspects of themselves as constantly at war. Seriously, I have not ever really had a problem with "I" crushing "Me". Not a fucking issue. It's good when "I" is in charge, and that's how it should be most of the time. It's normally the other way around that is a problem.

The whole concept of I and Me is antithetical to survival, and counterproductive to being a high-functioning individual. Talk about setting yourself up to be a drug addict... sure.. indulge the pleasure-seeking attributes of your id and you are on your way there.

News Flash: I and Me do NOT exist. It is a bunch of made up bullshit.

The venture of dividing up the psyche into separate personae, in my opinion, induces pathology all its own. (I've never been a huge fan of Freud's theories, or Jung's archetypes.) CEDU's invention and concept of I and Me made each (completely fabricated) side seem like they had their *own* personality disorders. "I" being the brutal sociopath, (you are nothing but an object I can dominate) and "Me" being the narcissist/eternal victim. (Everybody is my mirror, and everyone reflects myself back to me. I require rescue and constant coaxing/coddling, and nothing is my fault or responsibility.)

Sure, lets have both of those sides work together. I think then you end up with something like borderline, don't you? Lovely.

I honestly don't know what was going through Joe Francis' mind when he was in court for whatever that rape case was, but when I read about how disrespectful he was to the judge, by actually standing up and shouting at him... I often wondered where he learned how to act like that. Maybe it was unrelated to his stint at RMA, but it sure seemed like he had his "rap hat" on. "oh sorry your honor, I was just giving 'me' a voice."

The summit crap was the most confusing of all. "End results equal original intentions." Are you fucking shitting me? There are no unintended consequences? How unbelievably disturbing. I remember asking Carmen to specify that and explain it more, because it just didnt add up. Her response? She just repeated the tool again.... slower.... I'd heard it the first time, but I guess she thought I had turned into a mongoloid.

One other thing that was a bunch of poop-casings was the contract in the summit, as well as the tagline you come up with after the values for challenge night (for your farkakte "values shield" remember those?)... well... that seems to me to be more of RMA/CEDU's oversimplification of a persona, and a staff-approved one at that. Remember how the contract exercise had nothing to do with developing your own axiom, but rather involved trying to figure out the one that the staff already had envisioned for you?  Wait, am I selling a product? I am a minty, clean man?

It's difficult for me to say that I "learned" anything at that place, because whatever insight or knowledge I did gain seemed to be far outweighed by the price I had to pay in order to gain it.

But in case you are wondering, I did learn some things:

1. How to crack an egg with one hand
2. Carrying the food on an expedition is preferable to carrying the tent.. so always call food.
3. How to make a snow cave/snow kitchen
4. How to telemark ski
5. All of the skills associated with work (forestry, farming, animal husbandry, etc.)
6. If you are cold, take a piss, it normally helps.
7. How to fly fish

For the most part... it *was* nice to learn these things.. and I really did enjoy the expeditions, (even though I regarded my peer group as a bunch of spoiled-rotten douchebags.)

...but I could have learned most of this stuff elsewhere.. without so much additional baggage.


As for the Manson thing... well, he was a guru, as was Jones, Koresh, Do, and Diederich Sr. In some ways, I consider Mel had a bit of that aspect to him, because he worked for Diederich. Early 60s, 70s CEDU (pre high school) did seem to have a commune feel, based on stuff Ive read, but the fact of the matter is... it never went in that direction, and I really don't think Mel ever wanted it to. He was a businessman, and he saw a lucrative opportunity. So no, I don't see such clear parallels to things like the Manson family or Jonestown.

(Sorry about the edits. Mostly verbiage clarification, spelling corrections, and an addendum about the I & Me, cause really, that shit was totally fucked up, yo.)

[Anonymous]

I went to Cedu in Running Springs CA in 1980. I have only seen one person from there since I left that place. I was only 12 years old when they sent me. I was the youngest one there the entire time I stayed. I would love to re-connect with people who were there. Because it was so many years ago, I have forgotten many names. Here are some that I do remember: Tina Sutchos, Tammy and Nancy (last names?), Howard Uzan, Randy Eide and Ariana and Herrick (last names?). I was there with John Padgett, Carmen, Pat on the farm, Tim Brace, and others whose names I have forgotten too. My personal email address is [email protected] I would love to talk to anyone.

Thanks,
Susan Lewis-Bernardo

[Inculcated]

My nephew is supposed to be going in 2 days. I just found out about this website today. If anyone has any feedback, good or bad, please email me at [email protected]

Your help is appreciated!
Thanks,
Susan

(^From the other post)Maybe talking to your sibling about your experience of the CEDU program will change their mind about sending your nephew away to eaglequest nature camp in Utah

[try another castle]

My nephew is supposed to be going in 2 days. I just found out about this website today. If anyone has any feedback, good or bad, please email me at [email protected]

Your help is appreciated!
Thanks,
Susan

(^From the other post)Maybe talking to your sibling about your experience of the CEDU program will change their mind about sending your nephew away to eaglequest nature camp in Utah

 :eek:

Should probably mention... wilderness expeditions at CEDU are nothing compared to the bataan death march boot camps they have going on now all over the place. So.. take your CEDU wilderness experience and take away the food, adequate hydration (with iodine if it needed to be filtered), qualified staff, careful monitoring to avoid things such as dehydration or hypothermia, and reasonable physical expectations to ensure that no participant is pushed beyond their limits... not easy, but not ridiculous, and if someone got sick, everything stopped.

so anyway.. take away all of that... then you end up with shitpits like eaglequest.... and every single other wilderness school out there. no matter what they tell you.. its a bunch of shit.

When RMA couldnt deal with an uppity youngun, they sent them to southern idaho survival, which was pretty similar to the stuff your nephew will probably be dealing with.

CEDU did end up with their own version of this, eventually... Ascent.

Joy and rapture... a total shithole, according to people who went through it.

[Anonymous]

I went to Cedu in Running Springs CA in 1980. I have only seen one person from there since I left that place. I was only 12 years old when they sent me. I was the youngest one there the entire time I stayed. I would love to re-connect with people who were there. Because it was so many years ago, I have forgotten many names. Here are some that I do remember: Tina Sutchos, Tammy and Nancy (last names?), Howard Uzan, Randy Eide and Ariana and Herrick (last names?). I was there with John Padgett, Carmen, Pat on the farm, Tim Brace, and others whose names I have forgotten too. My personal email address is [email protected] I would love to talk to anyone.

Thanks,
Susan Lewis-Bernardo

Yep, I remember you.  And, I could never figure out why you were even there being so young.

[Anonymous]

You were twelve years old?? That is sad, what on earth could a twelve year old have done to be put any where?? Sounds to me like maybe the parents needed some type of help, not the kids.

[RMA Survivor]

Went to RMA in June 1984, so I guess that qualifies me to post here.

First off, Cranberry Bread probably referred to the disgusting habit at RMA of taking anything left over from other meals and making bread out of it.  Your morning surprise was finding out what wonderful things they had managed to do with bread that day.  Cranberry Bread was generally served every morning they didn't have something nasty like oatmeal from the previous day to add to the mix.  

We had a 13 year old at RMA when I was there.  Finding out there was a 12 year at some point kind of clears up a question we have had for 24 years.  Once upon a time, shortly after the 13 year old had completed the Final Voyage, Dan Krumptitch kept referring to a time when he took a 12 year girl up the mountain and back.  But he knew this girl there was 13.  Was he senile or referring to the actual 12 year old from years before?  I am not sure when Dan started leading Wilderness expeditions, or when he arrived at RMA, or if he ever worked at CEDU.  But we've always wanted to know if he had made a mistake or not.  

I guess I skated through the program for the first six months because I wasn't really fucked up to begin with, I tended to follow rules no matter how stupid, and just got along.  Sitting back and watching things, I was able to figure out pretty early that I was in a strange place.  But someone once pointed out that it is easier to believe people are trying to help you, then to accept that they are hurting you.  I tried to just do what I could to get through, always longing to be elsewhere, never feeling like I belonged there, but happy to have made some friends.  But I knew I was being brainwashed.  And that was hard for me to deal with.  I remember several times suddenly becoming self-righteous, pulling other students up, actually putting in rap requests, taking care of my shit, and then realizing how fake I was being and wondering what made me do it?  How I was lying just to get accepted and get rewards.  Maybe it was because I saw every older student do the same thing and get away with it, get those rewards and actually enjoy some breathing space and trust?  

I agree that what we learned could have been learned much more easily and without so much anger and venom.  I had solid friendships before I arrived and they still exist today.  RMA taught me nothing about friendship I didn't already know.  My parents taught me strong values early in my childhood, what was proper and acceptable behavior.  RMA gave me nothing in that department.  The only tool RMA really gave me was the ability to analyze everyone I meet and size them up in an instant.  And you know?  Ignorance is bliss in many ways.  Not being able to just relax and enjoy other peoples company is something I miss.  Now when I attend a party, or family gathering, or meet new people, all I do is see how fake they are.  I can't just accept them.  And I hate it.  It truly makes forming new friendships hard.  

The I & Me was such silliness I could never buy in to it.  Being a very intellectual person, I have always allowed my emotions and instincts to help guide me.  Without my I, there would be no way for me to understand my Me.  They are not separate.  We have a right side to our brain and a left side.  But it is still one brain. Your feelings are emotions are not contained in your belly or gut or heart.  It all comes straight out of your head.  And so all the psychobabble was lost on me in many ways.  

I guess by the end of my stay there, I was half in and half out.  I thought I had learned things that would be useful to me later on after I had left, and I wanted to believe my going there was somehow going to mend my relationship with my family, but I am not a believer because nothing changed for the better in my life after I left.  So despite two years of hard work, doing what I was told 95% of the time, and not fucked up to begin with, I left there and had nothing good coming.  My family disowned me for the most part twenty minutes after stepping off the stage.  Right there in the dining room at a booth.  I wasn't welcome to come home.  So clearly I wasn't "fixed", certainly not in my parents eyes.  And yet I wasn't fucked up when I went there. I had missed homework assignments and my parents were frightened to death that I would never graduate high school.  Yet when I did, somehow I wasn't fixed.  Despite my being extremely loving and caring and all touchy-feely, my parents thought what...?  To this day I have no explanation for why they didn't welcome me back in to the fold.  Did RMA not update them on my progress?  My many successes?  The answer is NO, they did not.  My parents were told I was essentially failing all my classes, yet I had nearly straight A's.  I got a 1590 on the SAT's and my parents were told it was an 800.  They managed this by sending them only my Verbal score.  They played me off on my parents for two years to keep me there and the checks rolling in.  And it took years for my parents to explain this to me, or for me to understand it after many long and very painful discussions.  But they don't want to accept it.  They have trouble understanding how horrible RMA was and the damage it did, because as parents they don't want to see that they might have made a mistake that caused pain and harm to their child.  I can accept that on some level.

So I was there in the 80's and I can tell you I am not a believer.  I wasn't much of one while I was there, I was trying to be one around graduation and shortly after, but when I got back in to the real world, I could see that nothing at RMA was going to help me survive or succeed.  And nothing from there ever has.

[Anonymous]

Yep, a gal in my dorm really was 12.  It must of been horrible for her to be there so young.

I'm sorry Dan and Mare died. I liked them. But, if they really became that abusive then oh fucking well.

Karma has a way of cleaning house.

[try another castle]

I think Im one of the few people here who didnt give a fucking shit about mare and dan. I thought mare was kind of a cunt, actually.


Still, it's sad for their kids. Losing one parent is horrible enough. Losing both is a real tragedy.

[RMA Survivor]

I thought only Dan had died.  Motorcycle accident.  I wasn't aware Mare died as well.  Very sad for the children if this is the case.

[try another castle]

I thought only Dan had died.  Motorcycle accident.  I wasn't aware Mare died as well.  Very sad for the children if this is the case.

mare died before dan. cant remember why.