Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Apology)

[Whooter]

A post from a survivor talking about a 1st hand experience claiming to have been abused, which was then later proven to be a lie.

With all the posts going on here I can see that you probably missed a few of the examples that I posted.  I will post it again for the people who have missed them.

BillS was a survivor who spent 4 years in Aspen Programs I believe he said he attended 2 of them.  His experience was up and down.  some good experiences and some bad.  Here is his full post:
Link

and this is an excerpt form the post:

Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.

Seems according to BillS that many kids faked being abused and being sick.



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[RobertBruce]

You keep missing it somehow. Again, I'm not sure if you're just being obtuse and playing games, or if you really do have a disability.

The post you're refering to is discussing other random people and generalizing some as lying.

What I am looking for is a specific post from a surivor talking about a 1st hand experience claiming to have been abused and that was later proven to be a lie.


Example:

Whooter wrote:

I don't have a son

This was later proven to be a lie.

See what you can come up with.

[psy]

Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.



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I've said that.  It's not to say I believe survivors have made things up about the program.  I'm saying it as a warning to others to keep up the good work of telling the truth, and to make sure new survivors recognize the importance of telling the truth.  You intentionally take things out of context and present them as proof of a lie you know to be false.  You know it to be false because the only examples you ever choose are opinion.  Things that by definition cannot be true or false.  You are very manipulative. It's funny how often that term is used to describe the kids when the real master con artists work for program (but that's another thread).

[heretik]

Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.



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I've said that.  It's not to say I believe survivors have made things up about the program.  I'm saying it as a warning to others to keep up the good work of telling the truth, and to make sure new survivors recognize the importance of telling the truth. You intentionally take things out of context and present them as proof of a lie you know to be false. You know it to be false because the only examples you ever choose are opinion.  

Things that by definition cannot be true or false.

[/b]  You are very manipulative. It's funny how often that term is used to describe the kids when the real master con artists work for program (but that's another thread).

and he knows this. He completely understands that there is no intent by the posters to lie at all, so IMO there should not even have to be a warning.
This is a hypothesis by Whooter to tentatively make an assumption in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences. (weirdo) He can only rely on his experience or observation here on fornits he does not have the actual intimacy of being personally involved in a program. The 24/7 of being subjected to the mind altering behavioral models.
This is a game (although a intellectual one) but still a ruse from a jouster. It is almost like he was hired by fornits to supply a endless source of debatable topics.
This is not real which is why I refuse to debate him on this subject.  :beat:

[Whooter]

I've said that.  It's not to say I believe survivors have made things up about the program.  I'm saying it as a warning to others to keep up the good work of telling the truth, and to make sure new survivors recognize the importance of telling the truth.  You intentionally take things out of context and present them as proof of a lie you know to be false.  You know it to be false because the only examples you ever choose are opinion.  Things that by definition cannot be true or false.  You are very manipulative. It's funny how often that term is used to describe the kids when the real master con artists work for program (but that's another thread).

He completely understands that there is no intent by the posters to lie at all,......

I understand that I am pushing this through and if I continue to re-post I will be basically flooding the thread and that is not my intent.  The kid that is telling the story that he was kidnapped in the middle of the night is expressing himself and kidnapped is carrying a lot of emotion with it.  “I was kidnapped and forced to eat pig slop and held in isolation etc.”

This is all well and good and I understand the difference.  But like Heretik and psy keep saying that I know very well this is what the kids mean and that they are not intentionally lying to everyone.   I think that you know what message I am trying to send.  How do we know if and when a child has been abused by their story?  If the child says that they were held down , beaten by a staff member and lost a tooth then yeah that would be abuse.  But if the kid states here on fornits that  they were abused at XYZ Program then we really don’t know whether this is along the same definition rules as kidnapping or not.

If we hold the words kidnapping and abuse side by side we can agree that they are very serious offenses which will result in prison terms if proven to be true.  But if Kidnapping can be used in a non literal/legal sense here on fornits then so can abuse.  If this is true then without the specifics the word “abuse” can mean anything from not having an ipod or the right styling iron to being punch unconscious by a staff member.  It doesn’t mean the program did anything illegal or harmful.  It could be an over emotional child speaking their mind.

So I guess my question to everyone is why encourage these survivors to place themselves in a position where they will not be believed?  If someone says they were abused as a child how do we take this?  Outside of fornits we would just be taken back and feel awful for this person.  But on fornits this could mean anything because the boundaries of the definitions of words like abuse and kidnapping are being opened extremely wide to include events that are not punishable by law.



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[RobertBruce]

So I guess my question to everyone is why encourage these survivors to place themselves in a position where they will not be believed? If someone says they were abused as a child how do we take this? Outside of fornits we would just be taken back and feel awful for this person. But on fornits this could mean anything because the boundaries of the definitions of words like abuse and kidnapping are being opened extremely wide to include events that are not punishable by law.

Then find a post from a survivor claiming abuse that wasn't actually abuse. You keep going on about making beds and washing dishes. Find a post from a survivor that says that was abuse.

[Shadyacres]

 How do we know if and when a child has been abused by their story?

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You listen to them, unless you are a heartless piece of trash.  You have never come up with one example of a program survivor being proven to have lied about his/her abusive treatment.  You just want to create an image of “troubled teens” as some kind of master manipulators, when reality is usually exactly the opposite.  When they get out of these places they are in no condition to run the kind of con you are trying to portray.  Why don’t you come clean about who you really are?  Nobody is as heartless as you appear to be unless they are being paid to be.

[Whooter]

 How do we know if and when a child has been abused by their story?

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You listen to them, unless you are a heartless piece of trash.

 

and what if we listen real hard and they say they were kidnapped and abused?

Do we call the police?  Were they really abused?  Were they really kidnapped?  Maybe what happen to them felt like kidnapping and felt like abuse but in reality it was neither.  Where are the lines drawn?  do we call 911?

If we call 911 every time we hear this and it is a false call and the local police say if you call again and it isnt a real emergency then we are going to have to charge you a $900 response charge because of all the false alarms.  That will slow things down a bit...... Then what about the poor kid who really does get beaten up by staff and abused.  Are we going to jump to the phone if this person comes out of the program and says they were abused?  You have made so many false calls that another one may cost you some serious cash so maybe we should not be rash and react right away.  Maybe this person just thinks they were abused... lets have lunch and talk about it.. abuse can mean may things to many people here and some of them are not illegal.

Do you see what I mean?  The word can get so watered down that if a child really does get abused or hurt they may not be taken seriously or get fast enough results.




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[RobertBruce]

and what if we listen real hard and they say they were kidnapped and abused?

Do we call the police? Were they really abused? Were they really kidnapped? Maybe what happen to them felt like kidnapping and felt like abuse but in reality it was neither. Where are the lines drawn? do we call 911?

If we call 911 every time we hear this and it is a false call and the local police say if you call again and it isnt a real emergency then we are going to have to charge you a $900 response charge because of all the false alarms. That will slow things down a bit...... Then what about the poor kid who really does get beaten up by staff and abused. Are we going to jump to the phone if this person comes out of the program and says they were abused? You have made so many false calls that another one may cost you some serious cash so maybe we should not be rash and react right away. Maybe this person just thinks they were abused... lets have lunch and talk about it.. abuse can mean may things to many people here and some of them are not illegal.

Do you see what I mean? The word can get so watered down that if a child really does get abused or hurt they may not be taken seriously or get fast enough results.

For the love of God man provide some evidence. Show us just one post made by a surivivor that was proven to be a lie. If you can't do that I think everyone would appreciate you just shutting up about it, because obviously you have nothing.

[heretik]

and what if we listen real hard and they say they were kidnapped and abused?

Do we call the police? Were they really abused? Were they really kidnapped? Maybe what happen to them felt like kidnapping and felt like abuse but in reality it was neither. Where are the lines drawn? do we call 911?

If we call 911 every time we hear this and it is a false call and the local police say if you call again and it isnt a real emergency then we are going to have to charge you a $900 response charge because of all the false alarms. That will slow things down a bit...... Then what about the poor kid who really does get beaten up by staff and abused. Are we going to jump to the phone if this person comes out of the program and says they were abused? You have made so many false calls that another one may cost you some serious cash so maybe we should not be rash and react right away. Maybe this person just thinks they were abused... lets have lunch and talk about it.. abuse can mean may things to many people here and some of them are not illegal.

Do you see what I mean? The word can get so watered down that if a child really does get abused or hurt they may not be taken seriously or get fast enough results.

For the love of God man provide some evidence. Show us just one post made by a surivivor that was proven to be a lie. If you can't do that I think everyone would appreciate you just shutting up about it, because obviously you have nothing.

This has been my whole premise in the short time I've known Whooter and this topic. He should be embarrassed with himself and shut down his prideful show he is putting on here. He is a jouster and he knows there is nothing here, it is called manufacturing.
Most people would have shut up by now but he has nothing else in the pipeline right now for manufacture. Wait, he will be doing takeoffs soon for a new rant, a brand new topic for antagonizing everyone here.
We just need to redouble our efforts and try not to give him energy to continue his factory of lies.
From someone who is new here and still somewhat objective, I will say this, Whooter does not have anywhere near the effect on parents, new survivors or associated news,schools or medical professionals who visit (IMO) he thinks he does. Most of his posts are immature rants and quarrels with other posters, he floods (with the same comment) constantly and his sincerity does not resonate with his posts.
The bottom line is there is no connection (for Whooter) to programs aside from a detached professional relationship.

[Shadyacres]

They could just as easily say making their bed in the morning was abuse and torture or that being forced to go to school was brainwashing. They could justify their words by saying it felt like torture or abuse or brainwashing

First: if they did it would be clear it was hyperbole/evaluative opinion and not a lie.  "This music is torture" for example, is not meant to be taken literally.

Secondly: to my knowledge, nobody has ever tried to pass making their bed or going to school in a program as torture. You are intentionally trivializing and obfuscating very real and very severe incidents of abuse by making it sound like survivors are whiny, spoilt, brats who exaggerate habitually.  Like Frederick and others noted.  Nobody has to exaggerate and if anything, they sometimes leave the worst bits out for fear they won't be believed.

I think you are trying to do damage control here Psy.  If someone says they were kidnapped and abused in the same story we know we have to treat the subject of abuse the same way we treat the subject of kidnapping.  They are not to be treated as literal definitions but rather they would be opinions.  We could not assume that the word abuse is spoke in the legal sense.  It needs to be understood the same as the kidnapping is... an opinion.

This music is torture,  This food was down right abusive, I felt isolated from my friends, etc. non of these are literal I agree.  But if you read here on fornits there are some people who think that the posters was really abused (in the legal sense) when this isnt true or at very best unclear either way based on the use of kidnapping, Gulag etc. which are not to be taken literally.

I feel that survivors do themselves a disservice because there are kids who really are abused and if their stories are lumped together with the stories of kidnappings then their abuse will fall on deaf ears or at best treated lightly.



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Don't you hate when the escaping Jews of Nazi Germany said they were being murdered in gulags and killing centers? They weren't in gulags or killing centers. They were rehabilitative work facilities in the legal sense of Nazi Germany. They were being "final solution-ed" not murdered in the legal sense during Nazi Germany. Don't they do a disservice to real victims of murder when they describe their families as Nazi murder victims? After all, Jews weren't murdered int he legal sense during Nazi German. Saying otherwise is a disservice to the "real victims" of murder. Neither Jews nor teens are actual human beings in their respective corrupt countries and as such, we must accept their subhuman nature, and the right of exploitative organizations to kidnap and imprison them, as long as their is some possible rationale to say what's being done to them is legal.

(BTW individuals have been prosecuted or otherwise judicially censured for having their kids kidnapped, and "programs"  (i.e. cultic torture prisons of ritual sexual abuse like Mount Bachelor Academy of the aspen education group cult) have been successfully sued for kidnapping and false imprisonment. And we're just gettin started.)

The main problem is that teens have no rights and no money of their own, and parents already freaked out by the changing world are being preyed upon by amoral opportunists.  They tell the parent horror stories of what will become of their children without their "professional" help.  Then they help them arrange the mortgage of their house to pay for it.  We are indeed just getting started.  I got out of the program in '86, and I just recently began to reflect on my experience and look around the internet for others with similar experiences.  How many others have yet to do this?  This industry has been going strong for over 30 years, there are ALOT of us out there.

[Whooter]

This has been my whole premise in the short time I've known Whooter and this topic. He should be embarrassed with himself and shut down his prideful show he is putting on here. He is a jouster and he knows there is nothing here, it is called manufacturing.
Most people would have shut up by now but he has nothing else in the pipeline right now for manufacture. Wait, he will be doing takeoffs soon for a new rant, a brand new topic for antagonizing everyone here. We just need to redouble our efforts and try not to give him energy to continue his factory of lies.

You have asked me to produce facts (which I did) and I have communicated my thoughts the best that I can, yet you post that I continue my factory of lies without providing a single link or hint to what you are talking about.
You are trolling your own thread.  Where did I lie?  Start a new thread and put up some examples.

From someone who is new here and still somewhat objective, I will say this, Whooter does not have anywhere near the effect on parents, new survivors or associated news,schools or medical professionals who visit (IMO) he thinks he does. Most of his posts are immature rants and quarrels with other posters, he floods (with the same comment) constantly and his sincerity does not resonate with his posts.
The bottom line is there is no connection (for Whooter) to programs aside from a detached professional relationship.

Why do think posters need to have an effect or to have a connection with all these people and organizations to be able to post here?    I never indicated that I thought I connected with new survivors or medical professionals.  We are all just posters here posting from our individual experiences whether they be survivors, parents or professionals in the industry.
Why do you attack people who are trying to make a point which you feel you don’t agree with and call them immature and question their sincerity?

I accept you for who you are Heretik.  I never criticized you for starting 3 threads on the same topic each one either attacking survivors or apologizing to them for being an ass.

Ya know here's the kicker,
I have been here for 5 years and I have seen many posters come and go so let me ask you something.  Do you know anything about statistics?  Maybe from highschool?  College maybe?
What are the chances of 2 survivors ending up sharing the same trailer, the same IP address,  in the middle of a corn field in Kansas and each of them having polar opposite opinions on the industry (one thinks the industry is great and the other thinks the industry is abusive, yet both of you lacking a middle ground argument) and still maintaining their friendship and not killing each other?

Just saying, Heretik.



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[RobertBruce]

You have asked me to produce facts (which I did)

When was this? So far you've posted the same two or three links over and over again, none of which actually prove your point.

[heretik]

This has been my whole premise in the short time I've known Whooter and this topic. He should be embarrassed with himself and shut down his prideful show he is putting on here. He is a jouster and he knows there is nothing here, it is called manufacturing.
Most people would have shut up by now but he has nothing else in the pipeline right now for manufacture. Wait, he will be doing takeoffs soon for a new rant, a brand new topic for antagonizing everyone here. We just need to redouble our efforts and try not to give him energy to continue his factory of lies.

You have asked me to produce facts (which I did) and I have communicated my thoughts the best that I can, yet you post that I continue my factory of lies without providing a single link or hint to what you are talking about.
You are trolling your own thread.  Where did I lie?  Start a new thread and put up some examples.

From someone who is new here and still somewhat objective, I will say this, Whooter does not have anywhere near the effect on parents, new survivors or associated news,schools or medical professionals who visit (IMO) he thinks he does. Most of his posts are immature rants and quarrels with other posters, he floods (with the same comment) constantly and his sincerity does not resonate with his posts.
The bottom line is there is no connection (for Whooter) to programs aside from a detached professional relationship.

Why do think posters need to have an effect or to have a connection with all these people and organizations to be able to post here?    I never indicated that I thought I connected with new survivors or medical professionals.  We are all just posters here posting from our individual experiences whether they be survivors, parents or professionals in the industry.

Because the essence of this Web Site inspires a profound connection, most get that here regardless where they are coming from. You really don't nor care.

Why do you attack people who are trying to make a point which you feel you don’t agree with and call them immature and question their sincerity?
 

Please, stop with your usual petty comebacks, nobody is hurting your feelings. There old and worn out.

I accept you for who you are Heretik.  I never criticized you for starting 3 threads on the same topic each one either attacking survivors or apologizing to them for being an ass.

Wow, you take my mistakes and exploit them, how original.

Ya know here's the kicker,
I have been here for 5 years and I have seen many posters come and go so let me ask you something.  Do you know anything about statistics?  Maybe from highschool?  College maybe?
What are the chances of 2 survivors ending up sharing the same trailer, the same IP address,  in the middle of a corn field in Kansas and each of them having polar opposite opinions on the industry (one thinks the industry is great and the other thinks the industry is abusive, yet both of you lacking a middle ground argument) and still maintaining their friendship and not killing each other?

Just saying, Heretik.

Whooter, you are immature or naive and/or malicious (read your response above). This is your toy (fornits) you enjoy playing with. I am not attacking you and please don't act surprised when your sincerity is questioned.  As far as Kansas, I don't know, have not been there and I don't own a pair of red ruby shoes. I am in Oklahoma and the boss man is seldom around so you will just be dealing with me on occasion.
I have never been a fan of yours. Sorry did not mean to be so blunt.

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[Whooter]

Whooter, you are immature or naive and/or malicious (read your response above). This is your toy (fornits) you enjoy playing with. I am not attacking you and please don't act surprised when your sincerity is questioned.  As far as Kansas, I don't know, have not been there and I don't own a pair of red ruby shoes. I am in Oklahoma and the boss man is seldom around so you will just be dealing with me on occasion.
I have never been a fan of yours. Sorry did not mean to be so blunt.

Heretik, If you come onto a website/forum and start judging and attacking people then you should be prepared to get some of it back.  Don’t get your feathers all ruffled just treat people the way you would like to be treated.

If you have noticed I never attack anyone unless they attack me or are rude to me first.  I accept your views at face value and are not threatened by them.  You should try to accept other peoples voice here even if they don’t align exactly with your own.

Everyones opinion is formed from experience or exposure to others and therefore is valid no matter how farfetched their views may sound to you.  Maybe you are so far off into the fringe that a moderate point of view seems extreme to you, I really don’t know what your problem is,  but try to listen and accept people more.



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