Author Topic: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Apology)  (Read 13848 times)

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Offline heretik

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Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Apology)
« on: November 06, 2010, 02:37:41 PM »
Hi, my name is "heretik" as many of you know (or suspect is DannyB II) because we both post from the same IP address. Well if I had known this would have created this much suspicion believe me I never would have typed one letter off our computers in this job trailer. To rectify this I will have my own lap top on Sunday 11/7 which means own IP but that does not mean necessarily I am out of jail, I could still be doubted.

That being said, I feel I owe the survivors here a profound apology for instigating or creating suspicion with the thread (Do Survivors Lie: Part II).
People, my sole purpose for this thread was to counter the thread Whooter had posted. To show that there were abused survivors out their (hiding their truth) but it was by "omission" not anything else. I personally have never heard any survivor (I don't know many) tell me their experience and it be filled with embellishments or lies, never. What I have encountered is a few (2) survivors tell me something different ("they told me nothing happened") then what went on in a certain program. They just did not want to talk about it. I have a friend right now that went to Elan (other then the one you think) it took her over 25 years to finally want to talk about her experience at Elan in detail. She would just say for so long, "oh it wasn't that bad" (I never pushed her to talk about her experience, either) "Bullshit", everything I have heard and read about that place tells me it was bad (abusive).
It just pissed me off when I read Whooters thread and I thought of her and others who don't say anything because they are ashamed or embarrassed to bring it up.
This is why I still believe it is important for these survivors who feel trapped inside themselves with their stories, to have a voice.

I am from Marathon House (I know went over here like a 500lbs anchor, straight to the bottom of the list) but that is where I went to. It was abusive but I think more in the actual Learning/Educational Dept. then anything else. I questioned my validity on this site and asked myself, "since I was not abused as many here that I did not fit in here"?? I believe I do and most of all I can lend support in so many ways.

Once again I sincerely apologize for my inability to articulate my true intentions for this thread initially and the confusion it caused.

Take care

I
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 02:38:44 PM by heretik »

Offline Samara

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2010, 05:46:09 PM »
Interesting post.

I'm not one to accuse you of being anyone else but it is strange you post from the same IP. However, there are differences in your wording and other semantic patterns, not to mention greater coherence in general. How does your colleague feel about you posting here?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2010, 08:07:12 PM »
Quote from: "heretik"
People, my sole purpose for this thread was to counter the thread Whooter had posted. To show that there were abused survivors out their (hiding their truth) but it was by "omission" not anything else. I personally have never heard any survivor (I don't know many) tell me their experience and it be filled with embellishments or lies, never.

Heritik that was your personal recollection.  What I was posting were facts from fornits.  My thread established that some survivors lie to get attention, to get revenge on the program they attended and for various other reasons.  We have had many similar threads i.e. "Why do programs lie" etc. After I proved my point the thread was broken up and placed in the Offa section.

Just a brief example,

here is what Gonzotherapy (who is a survivor) mentioned in the thread:

First of all, there are definitely lies and fabrications by some people about the level of abuse and exactly what happened during their incarcerations. I have seen some posts on another topic that I witnessed personally, and the story was complete B.S. I 100% agree that the people out there lying about incidences of abuse need to reign it in and be honest.

Link

BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:

Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.

Link

There were many others who posted saying they were kidnapped when in fact they were taken to the program via an escort service.

Gonzotherapy concluded with:

Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.

Many people claimed I had a motive, but what is the motive to create threads like "Why do Programs lie", "Why does Whooter lie"?

Do you see what I mean?  We are all just having a discussion on the issues of various topics.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline heretik

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2010, 08:50:26 PM »
Whooter,
I just don't agree with you and this whole hypothesis your trying to put together here, it is not nearly as conclusive as you are trying to convey. You have to look at the intention/motivation of the poster. In all of the posts I have read so far I have not got the  feeling that the poster was trying to mislead, lie, fabricate or embellish his/her posts to fool the reader. The bases for your argument that the poster is angry/resentful, well hell yes, it acts as fuel to get the word out. It is very clear that the poster is justifiably angry at their abusers and want the general audience to know what they felt was happening to them at the time. If anything they can be accused of is being passionate. I say, "so what to that".
Whooter you are trying to create smoke here, why I don't know. Only you know really. The bottom line here is you are out of line, you know it and everyone else knows it.
Parents, visitors and common readers will not be mislead by these comments, there is much more to the post then a few words (you disagree with).
I find little to debate on this subject.
Here is the question, "what difference does it make to you how they put their message out there, survivors? Why does this bother you so, are you speaking for a group of people or are you just picking at a bone out of resentment?
Is this nothing more then "tit for tat" ?  
Just asking???
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 10:58:35 PM by heretik »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2010, 09:21:38 PM »
Quote from: "heretik"
Whooter, The bases for your argument that the poster is angry/resentful, well hell yes, it acts as fuel to get the word out. It is very clear that the poster is justifiably angry at their abusers and want the general audience to know what they felt was happening to them at the time.

..at the time.
 I agree with this.  It felt like they were kidnapped.  It felt like they were abused.  It felt like they were tortured. It felt like they were brainwashed... etc.  But many of these posters are home now and understand that they were not kidnapped.  They have talked to other people in the program and are well versed on the use of escort services.  So why continue to say they were kidnapped?  Why continue to say they were abused in the cases where they were not but it felt like it at the time?  

I think not telling the truth just hurts their cause, Like Gonzotherapy pointed out.  What is the harm in telling the truth?



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Offline none-ya

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2010, 10:10:39 PM »
Quote
whooter wrote;
"I think not telling the truth just hurts their cause, Like Gonzotherapy pointed out. What is the harm in telling the truth?"


"


Really? Since when are you concerned for the anti program cause? Now who's embelishing his own case?
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2010, 10:28:32 PM »
Quote from: "none-ya"
Quote
whooter wrote;
"I think not telling the truth just hurts their cause, Like Gonzotherapy pointed out. What is the harm in telling the truth?"


"


Really? Since when are you concerned for the anti program cause? Now who's embelishing his own case?

Many people think I am pro-program but I am actually a moderate.  I understand that some programs are abusive and some are helpful (I don't take the extremists veiw that all programs are good or all are abusive).

I read stories here on fornits and think "Geesh how is anyone ever going to believe this kid, someone needs to talk to them on how to communicate with society".  No one on fornits will help these kids out.  They let them walk around telling people that they were kidnapped and held in isolation inside a gulag where they were brainwashed.  I am sure people laugh behind their backs.  So I am trying to help.
Non-ya, you get outside sometimes.  If you told the nurse at the hospital, that you just went to, that you were kidnapped at a younger age and held inside a gulag for years while they tortured you and brainwashed you and systematically abused you.   What do you think the nurse would say to you?  She might say :"Did you call the FBI when you got out?... What did the police say?"  .......

Why am I the only one who has contacts to people outside of fornits?  This isnt normal speak, but people on fornits dont know this they think it is normal.  But then they complain that they are viewed as druggie losers (this is not my perception, psy has mentioned this many times as a frustration to how many survivors are viewed) by the program and others.  I might think the same thing if I didnt know better and just heard this vocabulary.

Why do people here protect this sort of behavior especially when credibility is key to getting people to come to action?



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Offline heretik

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2010, 10:53:02 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "heretik"
Whooter, The bases for your argument that the poster is angry/resentful, well hell yes, it acts as fuel to get the word out. It is very clear that the poster is justifiably angry at their abusers and want the general audience to know what they felt was happening to them at the time.

..at the time.
 I agree with this.  It felt like they were kidnapped.  It felt like they were abused.  It felt like they were tortured. It felt like they were brainwashed... etc.  But many of these posters are home now and understand that they were not kidnapped.  They have talked to other people in the program and are well versed on the use of escort services.  So why continue to say they were kidnapped?  Why continue to say they were abused in the cases where they were not but it felt like it at the time?  

I think not telling the truth just hurts their cause, Like Gonzotherapy pointed out.  What is the harm in telling the truth?

..

Whooter, I am not going to debate this subject with you. I said my piece, I am a survivor and have close friends who are. How, why and when they decide to open up and share their abuse is none of your business, for you to come here and judge someone who has been abused is insane. Look at what you have reduced yourself to arguing about how abused victims should vocally share their stories, please tell me you are not this nuts.

Worry about what you are saying.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2010, 11:09:43 PM »
Quote from: "heretik"

Whooter, I am not going to debate this subject with you. I said my piece, I am a survivor and have close friends who are. How, why and when they decide to open up and share their abuse is none of your business, for you to come here and judge someone who has been abused is insane. Look at what you have reduced yourself to arguing about how abused victims should vocally share their stories, please tell me you are not this nuts.

Worry about what you are saying.

If you are telling the truth and truly do have friends that are survivors then why wouldnt you want their stories to be heard and believed?  Why would you just let them wander off and tell some crazy story which will just end up discrediting themselves?  Why not help them if you really care about them?
Heretik,
Lawyers coach their clients on what to say and how to say it.  They dont want them to lie, but they want them to be credible so that their story will be believed.  I dont know who you interact with on a daily basis, but I can tell you that the people I talk to everyday would discard the kidnapping gulag speak as high-school gibberish and find zero credibility in any of the story.  Why let them make fools of themselves like that if you really care?

I suspect that you support this kind of language because you feel the stories are not credible on their own merit and therefore say "what the hell, load up the language and maybe someone will fall for the kidnapping story and you will get some attention".  But, Heretik, I can tell you that you are giving your friends very bad advice because outside of fornits this sounds nutty and kidnapping is taken very seriously.  We dont just throw those words around like we have all experienced it.



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Offline RobertBruce

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2010, 08:25:35 AM »
Quote
What I was posting were facts from fornits. My thread established that some survivors lie to get attention


Link please. You have yet to ever produce an actual post from a survivor that turned out to be a lie. Until you do you haven't established anything.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2010, 08:49:12 AM »
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Quote
What I was posting were facts from fornits. My thread established that some survivors lie to get attention


Link please. You have yet to ever produce an actual post from a survivor that turned out to be a lie. Until you do you haven't established anything.

Thanks, Bruce, for the opportunity for all of us to take another look.  If you want more I can post a few more but I didnt want to over do it, I just wanted to make the point.

Just a brief example,

here is what Gonzotherapy (who is a survivor) mentioned in the thread:

First of all, there are definitely lies and fabrications by some people about the level of abuse and exactly what happened during their incarcerations. I have seen some posts on another topic that I witnessed personally, and the story was complete B.S. I 100% agree that the people out there lying about incidences of abuse need to reign it in and be honest.

Link

BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:

Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.

Link

There were many others who posted saying they were kidnapped when in fact they were taken to the program via an escort service.

Gonzotherapy concluded with:

Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.




...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RobertBruce

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2010, 09:00:53 AM »
So what you're saying is, is that you have nothing. I'm glad you've finally accepted this.

I asked you for a link to a post from a survivor that turned out to be a lie.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2010, 09:23:41 AM »
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
I asked you for a link to a post from a survivor that turned out to be a lie.


As long as you ask I guess it is okay to keep re-posting these:  (Link is at the end as you asked)

here is what Gonzotherapy (who is a survivor) mentioned in the thread:

First of all, there are definitely lies and fabrications by some people about the level of abuse and exactly what happened during their incarcerations. I have seen some posts on another topic that I witnessed personally, and the story was complete B.S. I 100% agree that the people out there lying about incidences of abuse need to reign it in and be honest.

Link



...
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Offline RobertBruce

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2010, 09:31:31 AM »
No Whooter, eventually it will be spamming. Please, continue to take the bait.

The fact is you cannot provide a single post from a survivor that was later proven to be a lie. You've got literally thousands of posts to pull from and you can't find one.

Let me dumb it down a bit for you, here's what I'm looking for:

A post made by a survivor told in the 1st person about an experience claiming to be abused, only to later be shown to be a lie. All you keep doing is posting references to lies, but no specifics. I would have thought as much as your prattle on about this you would have at least one smoking gun.

Let me know what you come up with.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2010, 09:43:23 AM »
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
A post made by a survivor told in the 1st person about an experience claiming to be abused, only to later be shown to be a lie. All you keep doing is posting references to lies, but no specifics.

Let me know what you come up with.

Here is one in the first person about his experience claiming kids being abused when in fact they were faking it.  I provided a link for you.

BillS (also a survivor who attended 2 Aspen programs for 4 years) recently posted:

Most kids that I saw come and go, faked being sick, faked breaking limbs, faked being attacked by other people, faked being real and faked being anything worth a damn.

Link



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