DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run

[SEKTO]

The key thing here is that they created the illusion of being able to leave (and told us this often) while at the same time making it nearly practically impossible. The end result is a deep-seated feeling of learned helplessness, eroding any shred of self-confidence "students" have left. It's a trick many cults use. Scientology's Sea Org uses similar tactics to keep their members from leaving. Did Daytop do any of that or did they rely exclusively on psychological debilitation?

Did Daytop do any of what?  I am not sure that I understand your question psy.  But I'll tell you what I remember:

From what I remember, it was usually put to us in terms of, "Those doors aren't locked.  I'm not putting a gun to your head and making you stay here.  You can leave whenever you like, and it's your choice.  Don't let the door bruise your butt on the way out."  

If a kid lived at home they'd mockingly say "It ain't easy, living on the streets, but you'll find that out once your mama kicks you out of the house for splitting the program.  You made your bed, and now you've gotta lay in it.  This place ain't called PLAYTOP.  We can't make you stay.  Up to you.  Bye."

Or if the kid was probated there, the counselor would say, "You want to leave huh?  Well, this place is called DAYTOP, not DAYCARE.  OK, no problem.  I'll just call your PO, and I'm sure that TYC will have a bed ready for you."

The counselors and staff would never physically force anybody to stay there.  If a given kid wanted to leave, he or she could walk out the door whenever they wished.  The counselors were never allowed to lay their hands on anybody, unless it was to break up a fight or something, or under some extenuating circumstance.  If it came to breaking up some altercation, or if it came down to a counselor defending him or her-self, then the counselor could (and would) step in and physically stop a kid from hurting another kid or something like that.  And I did see an instance in which a counselor stepped in and physically stopped one kid from kicking another kid's ass by putting him (the kid who was ready to beat somebody up, that is) in a bear hug.  

But no, they'd never physically stop anybody from leaving.  They'd let the kid walk right out the door, and would call his/her parents and/or PO right away.

This was in the middle of Dallas, mind you, an urban area, not out in the sticks.  It would have been easy to hop on a bus and get away.  But where would you go?

Does that answer your question, psy?

[Antigen]

My judgmental attitude, self-perceived "authenticity" and lack of tolerance for what I perceived as the "phoniness" in others is/was so systemic in my thinking that that was my mental "baseline" for all of my adult life! You know?

Yup! And you can just imagine how popular that kind of attitude made me with other kids when my older bors and sis were in the Seed. It was a big part of the effective social isolation netting. We were more or less cajoled or coerced into being assholes to outsiders so we had no vector into anything if we did leave. And the longer you stayed involved the narrower and more tenuous any of those old ties might become.

[SEKTO]

After deliberating with myself over this, I have decided to disclose these people's names.

DAYTOP outpatient started out in Richardson TX; I first went there in March of '92.  Then they gradually moved the operation to the Dresser building, near downtown Dallas, beginning in spring/summer of '93 and into early '94.  I graduated in approximately August of '93, and DAYTOP left TX entirely in approximately '96.

So here they are, all of them. These are the staff who were working at DAYTOP when I was there:

I'd love it if some of you floated these names around and tried to see what can be come up with on these people. Especially Marcy.

First is Ruben SILVERIO (maybe SYLVERIO, I cannot remember the proper spelling). A Puerto Rican DAYTOP grad from NYC.

Next, Marcy LANGSTEIN (pronounced Lang-STEEN) this is the one whom I refer to as "Marcia;" she was a totally bullying, confrontational "diesel dyke."  Again, I am not making fun of her; that's how she described herself to us at the time.  I remember her as a kd lang loving, folk-music playing, flannel and cargo-pants wearing, pickup truck driving type. She is also a DAYTOP grad from NYC; I think that she was a grad from the Queens outpatient facility.

If what I was told about her is true, then Marcy indirectly killed Mike GOMEZ through her abuse and negligence, IMO.

Mike GOMEZ was the kid I told of, whom Marcy (going against his parents' wishes) told that he was adopted, according to my sources. This led to Mike becoming very disturbed and running away, eventually getting killed while driving drunk. The kid had FASD, and was learning-disabled. We all treated Mike very poorly, and I regret that. He was the guy who was made to walk around with the pacifier.

The DAYTOP directors' names back in my time were these:

When I first got there in March of '92, the director's name was Mike GORMAN. He was a chain-smoking ex-jazzbo from NYC who claimed to have played the drums in Billie Holiday's band. He chain smoked filterless Pall Malls, spoke in this raspy voice, and he's the one the always went around with that "When you think you're looking good you're looking bad, and when you think you're looking bad, you're looking good" crap. He'd been to prison and had a small teardrop tattoo near one of his eyes, I cannot remember which one.  Mike Gorman graduated from DAYTOP way back in the '60s and had worked for their organization for a long time. He's been dead for over ten years. He was pretty old when I knew him, and I heard that he died in Florida at his daughter's house.  He died in '93.  I am pretty sure that Mike Gorman had been part of Synanon back in the day, too.

The next director after Mike was a guy named Eddie CINISOMO. He was a DAYTOP grad from NYC too and would always tell us that we were just statistics to him.  I don't know how or why he got removed from the directorship, but he did. He is dead now too, from some kind of natural causes, but I know no details of his death or the circumstances of it. His wife worked for DAYTOP too, as an administrator, but I do not remember her first name.

After Eddie was M*******  another Puerto Rican, ex-heroin addict.  I am not mentioning here name here to protect her privacy in case she is still alive.  She started out as a counselor in DAYTOP and eventually got promoted to director of our outpatient facility. She was (according to my sources) HIV positive but none of us knew it at the time, and I heard that she is dead now too. She's the one that went to work for Dallas' Phoenix House facility after DAYTOP was shut down in TX. She eventually died (or so I heard) from an AIDS related disease.

So all three of the directors at our outpatient facility are dead now. I do not know for sure, 100% about M*******, but feel that it is likely that she is indeed dead. She's not mentioned as part of Phoenix House's Dallas facility anymore.

Also on the staff as counselors were Greg THOMAS and Leroy BREWSTER. These two were these two huge black dudes that used to be football players. A kid named Mike told me, swore up and down, that he and another kid named Jerry once smoked a joint with Leroy on DAYTOP property and laughed about it together. Leroy supposedly UA'd them shortly thereafter but nobody involved cared. What are they gonna do, make me sit in the Chair? Was Mikes' reasoning. DAYTOP never kicked anybody out of the program, just shipped 'em too Athens if things got out of hand or if the kid was too rebellious or whatever. Greg Thomas was an ex-college football player who had to quit playing because of an injury and eventually started working "in the industry."  Leroy Brewster was a guy who used to deal Ecstasy in the mid '80s, and had worked for the Buckner orphanage before he got hooked up with DAYTOP.  I am pretty sure that Leroy was from Lake Highlands and went to Lake Highlands High School.

The other kids who eventually died were named T.J. THURMAN and Robert ROMAN. T.J. was the guy I told of who was a junkie and eventually got shot trying to steal somebody's car, and Robert was this Mexican kid who eventually joined a gang and got killed too.

One time in 1995, I was driving in Old East Dallas and saw Marcy out in her yard mowing her lawn, so I pulled over and got out of the car to say hi to her.  I do not recall our conversation much but do recall that she told me she was working for UPS.

Let's see what can be done to hold 'em accountable.

The name old DAYTOP Dallas outpatient staff psychologist (whom I referred to the other day) is Susan MERLIN (like the magician) and the old staff social worker's name is Joyce RATNER. Joyce eventually quit working for DAYTOP because (as she told me years later) she began to see how abusive they were.  I was in touch with Joyce a little bit over the years, off and on; as late as the year 2000/2001 I ran into her in a restaurant and we talked about "the old days" over lunch.  Joyce actually apologized to me for what they'd done.  I didn't "get it" at the time, what she was talking about, but sure do now.  Joyce was a really nice lady.

I actually believed that DAYTOP had helped me for years after the fact.

That place really, really screwed with my mind.  It took me fifteen years to see that.

Last I knew, Joyce was retired and I have no idea at all about whatever happened to Susan.

[SEKTO]

All this reminiscing about DAYTOP that I have been doing lately reminds me of the old Cheech and Chong routine (I believe it is on an album called Big Bambu) in which one of them was playing some Jesus hippie guy who said:  "I used to be all messed up on drugs, but then I found The Lord.  Now I'm all messed up on The Lord."

All of we old Daytopians from Dallas in the early '90s were saying, "We used to be all messed up on drugs, but then we found DAYTOP.  And now we're all messed up on DAYTOP."

[Antigen]

I gotta go play my role in the combine now, but I just wanted to respond to this cause it made me realize a tragic loss and tear up.

And we did lots of acid and other psychedelics together in later years, too, to try and undo some of the DAYTOPian programming but that only re-enforced and strengthened the groupthink bond. Taking a bunch of acid together in a tight-knit group like we were was like doing surgery on OURSELVES, like doing brain surgery on your buddy with a knife, fork, and spoon. A different form of psychic surgery in an effort to try and correct the surgery that the non qualified "doctors" messed up in the first place. Needless to say, crude, and very dangerous. Very easily abused, or it's maybe more accurate to say, misused.

Among the minor disabilities I had going at life to begin with is an odd difficulty in marking a new face or name. I guess I started to realize it around middle school age; that the people around me just had an easier time of getting to that familiar get along with others where you can call someone by name naturally, spontaneously, without having to rack your brain for the name and how you know this person. Being that my family were all in the Program already and my mother drinking most deeply and lustily of the kool-aid, I didn't have a single confidante who I could talk to about things like this except my brother, Jack. And he wasn't around all that much in those days. I think he was drunken and heartbroken in Tallahassee or something.

Anyway, I never put it together till now, but I was already working on that. I used to doodle all the time. In school, I used to do a lot of portraits of teachers and students. I never got back to that, nor to improving my handwriting and playing guitar, though I've had one or two in the house practically all of my adult life.

Nothing wrong with a little psychic self surgery. In fact, short of total milieu control, which we know to be haphazard and harmful, there is no other way to do psychic surgery, is there?  I almost wish I had done more acid.

[Anonymous]

Next, Marcy LANGSTEIN (pronounced Lang-STEEN) this is the one whom I refer to as "Marcia;" she was a totally bullying, confrontational "diesel dyke." Again, I am not making fun of her; that's how she described herself to us at the time. I remember her as a kd lang loving, folk-music playing, flannel and cargo-pants wearing, pickup truck driving type. She is also a DAYTOP grad from NYC; I think that she was a grad from the Queens outpatient facility.

If what I was told about her is true, then Marcy indirectly killed Mike GOMEZ through her abuse and negligence, IMO.

MARCY SHARON LANGSTEIN

• b. 1968, now aged 40.

• Possibly lived in the Bronx, NY in the early 1980s. A younger sister or other relative went to middle school there.

• Lived in Florida at least during her teenage years. Has had addresses at one time or another in Pinellas Park, Palm Harbor, and Clearwater. No dates on those, but she graduated from Countryside High School in Clearwater, FL in 1985. The same younger sister or other relative mentioned above also graduated from there three years later. As of July 2004, her mother was allegedly still living in Florida.

• That same sister (or other relative) appears to have still been in Florida recently, employed as an executive by Clearwater Underwriters, Inc, according to Conde Nast portfolio (but apparently no longer, according to Clearwater Underwriter's website).

• Marcy Langstein copyrighted some "words & music, performance, recording" called "Is this America?" in 1992, perhaps while in Texas (judging by the letters "Tx" in the record).

• Was employed for a time by JR Music Supply, LLC in Rhode Island, left under messy circumstances judging by conditions detailed in a lawsuit, both parties contesting the story of the other. M.S. Langstein's alleged reason for abruptly leaving had to do with the illness of her mother in Florida. Last day of employment by JR Music was July 20, 2004. However, Langstein stayed in Rhode Island long enough to file for unemployment benefits two days later.

• Had the following contact info when she lived in Rhode Island (perhaps overlapping with the time period that she played for the CCWHL - see below):

Marcy Langstein [email protected]   401-378-3180 Networkers

• There is a court case I do not have access to filed December 18, 2006, in the Florida Southern Federal District Court (West Palm Beach office): Langstein v. Wyeth et al, unfortunately no first initials, may or may not be her, case #9:2006cv81234, LINK.

• Marcy Langstein played on the team 'Hat Tricks' in the Cape Cod Women's Hockey League at least during the 2006-2007 season. There is a photo section on that website with pics from a Charity Golf Tournament some of the women participated in; you might want to take a look at them in the off chance... Quite frankly, pretty much every single one of these women fit your description.

• She signed the guestbook for the death of the infant twin daughters of a friend or relative this past summer (CACHED link). Most of the other people signing this page were from Bennington, Vermont.

July 31, 2008
Cynthia - They havent made the words yet that can comfort the loss of children.
Please know all my love, thoughts and prayers are with you today and always.

Goddess Bless...
Marcy
Marcy Langstein (New York, NY)
contact me[/list]

• Other addresses Marcy Langstein has had:

NORTH PROVIDENCE, RI
JOHNSTON, RI
CRANSTON, RI
PINELLAS PARK, FL
GARLAND, TX
SOUTH LONDONDERRY, VT
PALM HARBOR, FL
DALLAS, TX
LEWISVILLE, TX
CLEARWATER, FL
ARLINGTON, TX
MANCHESTER, VT

[SEKTO]

Nothing wrong with a little psychic self surgery. In fact, short of total milieu control, which we know to be haphazard and harmful, there is no other way to do psychic surgery, is there? I almost wish I had done more acid.

Well, HBWR or Oliloqui are excellent replacements.  Bouncing Bear has some fine stuff and I can vouch for their products.  I've gone through BBB many times for procurement of entheogens.  I never did dig salvia d though; she's not really my ally.

Yes.  That's the one, that's Marcy.  Thanks for tracking this stuff down, Net Picker.

This stuff brings back some old memories: I remember now her telling us that she'd lived in Florida as a teen, and I also remember her, at DAYTOP, playing us that song ("Is This America?") on an acoustic guitar one time.  

However, the women in those photos?  I do not recognize any of them as being Marcy.  But I might have a closer look later on.

More later.

[Antigen]

MARCY SHARON LANGSTEIN

• b. 1968, now aged 40.

• Possibly lived in the Bronx, NY in the early 1980s. A younger sister or other relative went to middle school there.

• Lived in Florida at least during her teenage years. Has had addresses at one time or another in Pinellas Park, Palm Harbor, and Clearwater. No dates on those, but she graduated from Countryside High School in Clearwater, FL in 1985. The same younger sister or other relative mentioned above also graduated from there three years later. As of July 2004, her mother was allegedly still living in Florida.

I wonder if she had much contact with either the clams or the Straightlings during that time.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, noticed that. What about the Clearwater Underwriters, Inc business? They sell flood insurance, from what I can tell.. At least 4 members of the Waters family. Are they legit?

[SEKTO]

You know, now that I think of it, I am almost positive that Marcy once recommended to me that I read Dianetics.  If it wasn't her, somebody on staff there once did; I am pretty damn sure of that it was Marcy though.  However, I do not remember anybody ever mentioning the word "Scientology."

[SEKTO]

Keep in mind that I have not seen Marcy in person since approx. 1995, but can still see her face and remember her looks.  She had long, wavy brown hair.

That said, I'll tell you that I have taken a closer look at those Golf Tournament photos from '06/'07 and did not recognize any of those folks.  I'll look through some more though, and will let you know if I recognize her.

[SEKTO]

OK, I shall now disclose for everybody's information where I am am who my therapists are, in order to assuage any real or potential concern about the veracity of what I have been describing to all of you, and to describe for all of you my present situation and circumstances.

I have been posting to this board from within Meadow Haven; we are in Lakeville MA and my therapists' names are Bob and Judy PARDON.

Meadow Haven is a residential program that helps survivors of cults of all kinds, and also survivors of certain abusive and overly controlling relationships that took place in some religious, psycho-therapeutic, or otherwise cult-like context.  

They (Bob and Judy) work closely with Wellspring, and to compare Wellspring to Meadow Haven I'll use the following medical analogy.  Wellspring is comparable to a cult-trauma emergency room, and Meadow Haven is a longer-term program, kind of like extended physical therapy that one would go through after being hit by a truck or something, but it's not physical therapy, it's psychotherapy.  Wellspring and Meadow Haven refer people to one another on a regular basis.

There are only two programs of this kind in the United States.  Wellspring is one of them and Meadow Haven is the other.  Wellspring is the ER, and is short-term; Meadow Haven is the longer-term therapeutic community program.

The Pardons are well familiar with CEDU clone programs and the like, and Bob just loaned me a copy of Help At Any Cost to read.  Amazingly, they'd never heard of DAYTOP until I told them about it.

BTW: I just started that book; I skipped the introduction and finished Chapter One last night.  Tonight I'll read the introduction and probably start Chapter Two.  

Read of Meadow Haven and the Pardons here:

http://www.meadowhaven.org/index.htm

http://www.meadowhaven.org/the_people.htm

The Pardons are well known in cult-ed and cult recovery circles and the Meadow Haven program is nothing like a 12-step group environment, not at all, nothing whatsoever.  I am definitely in a safe place and we are not controlled or coerced here in the least.  I am in the driver's seat of my own treatment all the way.

The Pardons are committed Christians, but they are hardly preachy and never try and impose their beliefs on anybody at any time; not in any way, shape or, form.

Bob and Judy PARDON (my therapists) are without a doubt two of the most compassionate, encouraging, and positive people I have ever had the privilege to know, not to mention two of the foremost experts on the subject of thought reform in this country, and it is a pure blessing to be here in and therapy with them, to sit under them as my mentors. I am 100% confident in their integrity, professional ethics, and capability, and am so very grateful to be here with them.  I am very very fortunate, all of us here are.  It is my incredible privilege to be here, and I cannot overstate that point.

These are very highly competent people that I am with, certainly not Puerto Rican hack armchair psychologists or anything like that.  

They are absolute professionals and I am 100% confident about their competence and ethics.

I consider myself highly blessed to have them. The Pardons literally saved my life. That is no understatement and none of us here takes that fact lightly.

Furthermore, I am in about three hours of psychotherapy a week and am making real progress.

Check them out if you're not familiar with them, or have never heard of Meadow Haven.

[Anonymous]

There are only two programs of this kind in the United States. Wellspring is one of them and Meadow Haven is the other. Wellspring is the ER, and is short-term; Meadow Haven is the longer-term therapeutic community program.

You DO know (do you?), since you were in Daytop, that the term "therapeutic community" is a dirty word around here. It is neither therapeutic nor is it a community.

Daytop is one of the original therapeutic communities. They usually focused on addiction treatment.

[SEKTO]

Well, one would imagine that the words "treatment" and "program" are dirty words around here too, but that is exactly what I am participating in.  I am in a treatment program for cult-trauma survivors, and Meadow Haven is both therapeutic and a community; therefore, it is a legitimate therapeutic community.  

There are legitimate treatment programs that are healthy and constructive for the participants, who are all participating voluntarily, mind you, and in psychotherapy with trained, licensed professional counselors; as well, there are (needless to say) unhealthy and illegitimate hellholes that call themselves "treatment programs" which are abusive to and destructive for the participants, who are usually there involuntarily, and which are usually run by a bunch of uneducated thugs.

One thing that I do not need is somebody telling me what I can and cannot say.

So I'll tell you what: my assertion is, that I don't have to change anything at all about what I say or how I say it just because you (or anybody else) tells me so, Guest.  I do not need you playing "semantics police."  I do not not your blessings.  If I wanted somebody to control me or my choice of words and impose their will (and therefore their way of thinking) on me, then I'd go back to DAYTOP.  

So I'll say what I want, and use any choice of words I wish, if that's OK with you.  Deal?

[psy]

One thing that I do not need is somebody telling me what I can and cannot say.

Maybe, but at the same time, aren't you suggesting to him what he can and can not say?  Just food for thought and I mean no disrespect.  In any case, what you won't find here is any administration or authority interfering with what anybody can or cannot say.  There are staunch industry supporters, program staff, and the like who come here from time to time, berate survivors, and generally make asses out of themselves but...  why interfere with that?  By letting them speak they make all the more clear to everybody just how bat-shit crazy many of these cult members are.  Some AARC threads have particularly good examples of this behavior.

All in all I think it's a bit silly.  People criticized me when my lawyers referred to Benchmark as a "school" in their papers even though they didn't employ any qualified teachers (judge's words, not mine), but for lack of a better term what other way is there to succinctly describe the place.  Program maybe?  But then that would be implying it's a treatment program when it's not licensed as one.  Anybody got any better suggestions?

All in all it's pretty silly.  "Therapeutic community", negative connotations aside, is a fairly good way to describe the place you are in based on your description.  Maybe "cult recovery center" would be another, but...  come on, guest..  you know what he meant.  SEKTO has a point about the "semantics police."  Quibbling over terminology is more the program's territory than of Fornits, or most anywhere else.