DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run

[SEKTO]

Greetings all.  

The Pardons (my therapists) were out of town for the entire week after Thanksgiving (the week in which I was most active here) and now that they are  are back, I probably will not post here much anymore, if at all.  The reason I was doing all of that posting was mainly that it served as as an adjunct to my psychotherapy, as well as to my readings and work in the area of boundaries and emotional trauma; because they were out of town (the Pardons as well as most of the other residents here) and there was nobody to talk to, I was spending a lot of time alone at that time.  I needed someone to talk to, a place to test some ideas, a sounding board, so I Googled the words "DAYTOP cult" and that's how I found Fornits.  I found just such a board here.

This board has served its purpose toward my treatment as far as I am concerned.  It was a form of reflective journaling, but in a way better, since I got a lot of good input from psy and others.

The Pardons and the others are all back now, so I will post no more unless somebody directly asks a question or whatever, and I wish to reply.  I'll keep my eye on this board (as I have been) but prefer to keep my online presence to a minimum right now and don't feel like dealing with trolls and other BS, like participants engaging in flaming and trying to bait me into arguments that I am not going to be a part of.  I can see all that coming from a mile away and make it a practice to "never feed the trolls."

For another thing: it (my presence here) had, and has, nothing to do with trying to promote the program I am part of now, and if you notice, I didn't even mention the name of this place for several days.  The only reason I mentioned the names of Meadow Haven and the Pardons was to give some legitimacy to what I was to communicate, so that nobody would think that I was making it all up.  You know where to find me.  I am not going to disclose my name here (speaking of boundaries), but all of you know where I am if you want to meet me.  I'll be happy to tell you all about it in person if you'd care to hear of these things in more detail.

Personally, I really do not like the unmoderated forum format; there's just too many trolls and other jerks out there.  So I prefer to stay away from online forums these days for the most part.

I assure everyone and give my sacred word on this:  I did not invent a single thing that I recently posted.  Everything I wrote is is true and accurate.

As far as Guest not understanding how a relatively stable person could be so profoundly affected for so long: well with respect my friend, about all I can say about that is that you have not walked the proverbial mile in my shoes and are not the judge of me.  There are other things, personal things about my background and life story that I did not tell of and that you therefore in fairness cannot take into consideration in coming to such a conclusion; there are many other factors involved here that you are not able to take into account in attempting to evaluate me and my experience in DAYTOP, as I related it.  

In other words, I am not here to tell you my autobiography.  I am here to tell you about my experience with DAYTOP and how it affected my life and the lives of my friends, some of whom lost their lives.  Mike Gomez, for instance, got pushed over the edge in DAYTOP and died from negligent treatment IMO.  

I was a relatively stable person in the first place, and the DAYTOP environment was in fact the destabilizing influence, not the other way around;  Daytopianism completely undermined and utterly warped my personal identity and sense of boundaries.

Simply put, my conclusion is that the "one size fits all" approach to that kind of "therapy" basically does not work, and in the long term far more persons get hurt than helped, especially (like me) if they did not need to be in a program like DAYTOP to begin with.  It is (the DAYTOP way) not legitimate medical treatment, it's thought reform, mind control, and DAYTOP is little more than a "sobriety cult."  I do not know of one single person from that time period that stayer "clean and sober" in the longer run, and we (me and my Daytopian friends from circa '93-'94) have all had major difficulties in our post-DAYTOP lives, but are all generally doing well now, fifteen years later.  Some more well than others I suppose.  I myself am more than OK and getting better all the time.

[Anonymous]

I was there with the original poster of this thread.  I was in DAYTOP Texas for over 2 years.  Most of what I have read is right on the money.  Ruben was a compassionate individual, but I once watched him scream at someone so violently that his false teeth flew across the room.  The place turned me into a cripple or sorts, and I have spent the rest of my life sorting out the damage done to me by them and my family.  The real tragedy is that it was all done 'for our own good'.  I was DAYTOP's poster boy.  They kept me around way longer than anyone else so they could show me off as a success story.  What they failed to realize is that I began to abuse others in the way I had been abused and thus the cycle continued.

I was a hardcore drug addict and criminal from that point forward.  Actually, I was a hard core criminal first (totally sober though!!!) for about 3 years-then I became a hard core drug addict.  The only thing that brought a change into my life was Jesus Christ.  I finally admitted defeat from my wicked heart, and realized that in my heart of hearts I wanted to be drugged out.  It was at that point that I just asked God for a new heart, one that wasn't ruined from a lifetime of rehabs and violence.  I asked for a heart that had good desires, like wanting to be with my wife and kids, and not out running the streets.  Well folks, it's there for the asking, because I haven't got high since, and I don't need 12 steps or another institution.  The bible says point blank "ALL who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved".  I was a slave to much more than a drug, I was a slave to a heart and mind that had been poisoned.  Jesus set my mind free and gave me something I could trust and believe in.  There was no other way for me, and I believe from where I'm standing, He is the real answer.  Jesus came to give us a relationship, not religion.

Anyways, DAYTOP is a terrible program that believes the ends justify the means.  Is changing your behavior worth handicapping your mental health?

[SEKTO]

Thanks for agreeing to post your testimonial, Billy.

That could not have been easy for you to have done.

You're a good man and a good friend.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for your eloquent support of your brainwashed student my dear Rev. Pardons :jerry:

[SEKTO]

For the record, Billy C is not Bob Pardon.  

I have known that man (Billy, that is) for over 15 years.

Class dismissed.

[SEKTO]

Look what I found recently.  You'll LOVE this.  Here is the Leroy BREWSTER of whom I wrote in earlier posts.
 
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... =230453083

Check out his photos:

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... =230453083

Say, straight up: how come almost every posted photo of Leroy is set in a bar?  I mean, what's up-he must frickin' LIVE at the bar.  There's no pictures of him even, like, hiking or watching football or something.  Just lots of pictures of him at the bar with this big shit-eating grin on his face, and surrounded by tipsy young women.

These people, these half-assed and totally unqualified DAYTOP counselors, had no business getting into my head or anybody else's.  

I can't say for sure, but I imagine that most of them (especially Marcy) are a sad sight today.  Just look at what Leroy's up to in '09.

All I see is one hell of a drunk old man, a lowlife pimp and small-time playa!  This just infuriates me.  How did he get hired?

This is the man who I was told once smoked a joint with a couple of the DAYTOP kids, on DAYTOP property no less, and then laughed about it with them!  

And this is one of the people who was running our encounter groups and was responsible for helping to mold kids' minds?  

This is a man who used to sit in on closed-door meetings in which the DAYTOP counselors would discuss our deep dark secrets and personal issues?

No college education at all, no certification,  no nothing.  What kind of educational requirements did DAYTOP have back then that allowed people like this to be on staff and with access to children?

[Ursus]

Well... you knew him, I didn't. But people -- and, consequently, organizations composed of people -- have been trying to control one another since the beginning of time. Some less ethically than others.

[SEKTO]

I'm not sure that I take your meaning there, Ursus; can you explain, expand on that, restate your point please?

Oh man, this pisses me off.  It makes me want to punch a hole in the wall.

Check out Leroy at the James Brown Theme Party.  

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... Id=1083684

From the looks of things, he's a bouncer in a Denver bar called The Thin Man, and something of a literal pimp.

And this man was once in charge of helping to mold my mind and personality?  

This man was once telling me about working on my personal growth?

This man once gave me haircuts and would run encounter groups, would get into our heads and was dealing with our innermost fears and insecurities?

What were his qualifications to be doing that kind of "counseling" work involving children?  

Did he get his degree from the University of Straight Pimpin'?  

Why, I'll bet he even got himself a PhD; a Pimpin' Hos Degree!

Judging by the looks of things, he's also taking plenty of continuing education hours too, to keep his pimp certification and credentials valid.

http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.c ... D=11821351

Fuck DAYTOP.

[Ursus]

Hey... slow down... Nothing personal and no offense intended. It was just a comment about the disparaging state of the human condition, and apparently my delivery was less than optimal!

When I said you knew him, I didn't...I only meant that I can't really comment on his personal mores, since I didn't know the man. Probably a stupid thing for me to say, sorry about that. If he was a dickhead, I'll take your word for it.

[SEKTO]

Oh no Ursus, there must be some misunderstanding; your comment did not offend me in the least, I assure you.  Pardon me if I gave you that impression.

I didn't even think twice about what you wrote, in terms of being rankled by it; it's only that I just didn't quite take your meaning.

Your input was not the source of my disgust, my discovery of those pictures is the source of my disgust.  I am genuinely outraged.  

The man had absolutely no educational credentials at all and very little experience in the counseling field, just a good deal of street smarts that helped him to relate well with the kids that he was dealing with.  I think that he was on staff in the Buckner orphanage in some kind of counseling or mentorship position before he came to work for DAYTOP.

In all honesty, Leroy was one of the "cooler" and less sadistic counselors, and was a hell of a funny guy.  I liked him, actually.  He was a trip.  He told us a story one time about how, back when he was in high school, he and a whole bunch of other kids from Lake Highlands High stole a school bus and drove it to a Parliament concert, partied it up in the bus the whole way to the show, ditched it in the parking lot when they got there, and never were caught.  His thing was smoking a lot of grass, and he dealt Ecstasy back in the mid-eighties, shortly after it became illegal.  He used to frequent Dallas' legendary Starck Club, where X first started gaining popularity.  But he was supposedly sober when he worked with us.  Probably not though.  He was into a lot of funk and R&B stuff, so the James Brown Theme Party photos do not surprise me at all.  That's the Leroy I remember.

What really gets me, what really pisses me off, is that there was a total lack of accountability and oversight in DAYTOP back then that allowed a guy like that to get hired to begin with, much less to be in a position of influence over a bunch of children.  Not that Leroy is or was a bad guy per se; it's just that he wasn't qualified to be doing that kind of work at all.  

If he really did smoke a joint with Mike and Jerry that time (and I don't know it for a fact, but Mike swore up and down that he smoked weed with Leroy), then I say he's an asshole for doing so.  I find the thought of it to be particularly disheartening.  Smoked weed with a couple of the kids on DAYTOP property.  Damn, that's gansta.

[SEKTO]

Here' a detail from the past that i remembered, and it's one that will prove the veracity of that what I have posted in the last couple days.  

We Dallas Daytopians used to call Leroy "Sexual Chocolate" because he reminded us of the goofy singer Randy Watson in that Eddie Murphy movie Coming To America.  He didn't like it and would tell us not to call him that, but it was funny at the time and I remember it to this day.  

Leroy'd walk by and we'd yell out "Sexual Chocolate!  Sexual Chocolate!" or we'd start singing The Greatest Love of All.  He hated that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoS8j9eN ... re=related

[psy]

This is highly relevant to your interests:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26020&p=324276#p324276

It's a speech given by Abraham Maslow at Daytop in NY

[SEKTO]

Thank you psy, relevant on many levels it is indeed.  

Can you please, for my edification, highlight and elucidate upon what you believe to be the most pertinent points contained in this text?

Thanks for your time.

[psy]

Synanon and Eupsychia. Journal of Humanistic Psychology 1967; 7; 28
These are excerpts from a speech given by Abraham Maslow, leading figure in the Human Potential Movement alongside Carl Rogers, at the Synanon branch in NY, Daytop Village, Staten Island, N. Y., on August 14, 1965. Synanon is a community run by former drug addicts to which addicts come to be cured. (Cedu was started in ’67. Also in 67' Synanon adopted the idea of lifetime therapy and became a self-proclaimed utopian community.)

What I have read about Synanon, as well as what I saw last night and this afternoon, suggests that the whole idea of the fragile teacup which might crack or break, the idea that you mustn't say a loud word to anybody because it might traumatize him or hurt him, the idea that people cry easily or crack easily or commit suicide or go crazy if you shout at them - that maybe these ideas are outdated.
I've suggested that a name for this might be "no-crap therapy." It serves to clean out the defenses, the rationalizations, the veils, the evasions and politenesses of the world. The world is half-blind, you might say, and what I've seen here is the restoring of sight. In these groups people refuse to accept the normal veils. They rip them aside and refuse to take any crap or excuses or evasions of any sort.
Well, I have been asking questions, and I have been told that this assumption works fine. Did anybody ever commit suicide or crack in any way? No. Has anyone gone crazy from this rough treatment? No. I watched it last night. There was extremely direct talking, and it worked fine. Now this contradicts a whole lifetime of training, and that makes it terribly important to me as a theoretical psychologist who has been trying to figure out what human nature is like in general. It raises a real question about the nature of the whole human species. How strong are people? How much can they take? The big question is how much honesty can people take. There are all sorts of games cooked up to cover the truth, but the truth is that the average American citizen does not have a real friend in the world. Very few people have what a psychologist would call real friendships. The marriages are mostly no good in that ideal sense as well. You could say that the kinds of problems we have, the open troubles - not being able to resist alcohol, not being able to resist drugs, not being able to resist crime, not being able to resist anything - that these are due to the lack of these basic psychological gratifications. The question is, does Daytop supply these psychological vitamins? My impression as I wandered around this place this morning is that it does.
It seems possible that this brutal honesty, rather than being an insult, implies a kind of respect. You can take it as you find it, as it really is. And this can be a basis for respect and friendship. I remember hearing an analyst talking a long time ago, long before group therapy. He was talking about this honesty too. What he was saying sounded foolish at the time, as if he was being cruel or some-thing. What he said was that "I place upon my patients the fullest load of anxiety that they can bear." Do you realize what that implies? As much as they can take, that is what he is going to dish out, because the more he can dish out, the faster the whole thing will move. It doesn't seem so foolish in the light of experience here.
On the new social therapy. This is a thought which may turn out to be of professional interest to you. There is a new kind of job opening up that is an activist's job, and it is one that demands experience rather than book training. It is a sort of a combination of an old-fashioned minister and a teacher. You have to be concerned with people. You have to like working with them directly, rather than at a distance; and you have to have as much knowledge of human nature as possible. I have suggested calling it "social therapy." Well, this seems to be developing very gradually over the last year or two. The people who are doing best are not the people with Ph.D.s and so on; they are the people who have been on the streets and who know what it is all about themselves. They know what they're talking about. They know, for example, when to push hard and when to take it easy. With the sudden effort to try to teach the illiterate how to read; and of psychiatry to help people to maturity and responsibility; and so on, there is already a great shortage of people to do these jobs.
Well, one of the interesting things about Daytop is that it is being run by people who have been through the mill of experience. You people know how to talk to others in the same boat. And this is a job; it may be a new type of profession.
On the current social revolution. I could give you a half hour of examples of the way it takes place in different spots. There is a revolution going on. There are some spots which are more growing points than others; but they are all growing in the same Eupsychian direction, that is in the direction of more fully human people. This is going on in education as well. I think that it would be possible, if we got together and pooled all the experiences, bad and good, that we could all pool together, to take the skin off the whole damn educational system. But we could also rebuild it. Well, this is explosive because it demands a human reality, human needs, and human development, rather than a sort of traditional heritage from a thousand years ago which is outdated. It is difficult to speak about Eupsychian education. I think that you can contribute some with the thought that I suggested to you that you consider this as a sort of pilot experiment.
On encounters. May I tell you something. I've been in only one encounter group - last night - and I don't know how I would react if I'd been in that thing for a long time. Nobody has ever been that blunt with me in my whole life.
A major research question. That raises a question that I am asking around here. It is a very important question, and you don't really have the answer, I guess. The question is why do some people stay and others not? That also means, if you take this as a kind of educational institution, how good will it be for how much of the population? How many customers do you expect? How many people won't it work for? You know, the people who never show up do not get counted as failures. You people here overcame a hurdle, you overcame a fear. What is your theory about the people who don't jump over the fear? What is the difference between them and you? This is a practical question, since you people will be the graduates who will be running places like this somewhere else in the future. Then you must face the problem of how to make a larger percentage stay. I report to you that by comparison with that picture that procedure - what happens here is that the truth is being dished out and shoved right in your face. Nobody sits and waits for eight months until you discover it for yourself. At least the people who stay can accept it, and it appears to be good for them. That is in contradiction to a whole psychiatric theory.
From the kind of talking that we did last night, I very definitely have the feeling that the group would feed back things that you could not get in a hundred years of psychoanalysis from one person. Talking about what somebody looks like and what you look like to somebody else, and then having six other people agreeing about the impression you give, is revealing. Maybe it is not possible to form your own identity or a real picture of yourself unless you also get the picture of what you look like to the world. Well, that is a new assumption. In psychoanalysis that assumption isn't made. What you look like to other people isn't taken into account.
After you get over the pain, eventually self-knowledge is a very nice thing. It feels good to know about something rather than to wonder about it, to speculate about it. "Maybe he didn't speak to me because I'm bad, maybe they behaved that way because I'm bad." For the average man, life is just a succession of maybes. He doesn't know why people smile at him or why they don't. It is a very comfortable feeling not to have to guess. It is good to be able to know.

Maslow was a big proponent of the human potential movement.

[SEKTO]

To give a synopsis: basically, he is saying "We'll have to hurt you in order to help you.  You may not understand what we are doing right now, think that it's rough and perhaps even abusive, but eventually you'll come to understand and be grateful for what you have done to you and for you, and we'll teach you how to do it for other people so that you can one day treat others in the way you've been treated and thus perpetuate the cycle of mercy."  

That's pretty much what I take away from it.  What say you psy?

Oh, and I recently read O'Brien's book.  

It's easy to pontificate condescendingly in such a manner as he about what the country needs to do in order to "save our kids," when he's a priest who is under a vow of celibacy and has no kids of his own, right?

Constantly in the latter half of the book calling addicts and other people with problems stupid lazy babies and the like.  

More on that later though.