Wow, obama is going to win

[psy]

It would be helpful on your end to use all the information at fornits disposal to form a list of the “Best and the worst” programs.  This would help keep some kids from attending the programs which could be very damaging to them instead of telling parents they are all the same or all equally abusive.  Have you ever thought of that?  I feel this could be constructive and you have lots of information here on fornits, what do you think?

Kathy

I think that information would eventually come out about a good portion of the "best" programs to shift them towards the worst category.  In the mean time, those parents would have us to blame for making such a list.  It's playing Russian roulette with other people's kids and i'm not going to have that on my conscience.  Need I remind that there is no evidence any of these schools work (other than anecdotal).  If the FDA is going to approve a drug, it needs to be proven to work and be relatively safe (eg: penecillin).  The same criteria does not apply to programs, where whoever has the best marketing and business strategy wins.

As a libertarian, I can appreciate that approach, but at the same time, the fact remains that as it stands, parents do expect the industry to be licensed and regulated in a similar manner.  They often go in blissfully aware that any sort of abuse is possible or common (and such is a consequence of a public that has become too reliant on a nanny state...).  Personally, I would prefer that the public be skeptical and not expect some regulatory (and often incompetent) figure to help them out, but as it stands, they do expect just that. It's often too late when they figure out "oh!  what do you mean it's not regulated?!?!?" or in states where "schools" are regulated, "what do you mean inspections are scheduled and infrequent!?!?".  As Antigen has said on this forum before: "to err is human. It takes government intervention to really fuck things up".

My approach, is to simply educate the public, tap them on the shoulder, get some discussion on this issue, and let them know that there is no magic government sky fairy protecting their kids (and if there is, he's drinking on the job).  In my experience, there is no way to tell a good program from a bad one.  Past endorsements of educational consultants (even reputable ones) proves they are incapable.  To that end I pose you these questions, which I believe you overlooked.

Oh my, I might have an internet addiction.  It has been interesting for me sharing instead of just reading here.

LOL.  on a serious note, do you actually feel that internet addiction exists?  See.  That's the problem I have with the disease concept of addiction.  It absolves people of personal responsibility for their actions.  Say you enjoy running or playing chess.  Does that mean you have a running or chess playing addiction?  It's getting a bit absurd when ordinary enjoyable behaviors are labeled as "addictions".

Such a concept also implies that because people are not responsible for their own actions, and do not have their own free will, imprisoning or "fixing" them against their will is ok (since it's not their will to give).

INo, I don’t think anyone would.  Would you deny your daughter penicillin if you knew it were going to help her or aspirin to relieve some of the pain?  These schools are not controlled by registered sex offenders, you have been mis informed.

IIRC, one of the Lichfields is a registered sex offender and not allowed to step foot on his own schools (Cross Creek, et al).  I don't think he's the only one as I recall hearing about a similar occurrence at another school.

Earlier I raised the point that many schools that are now defunct (such as tranquility bay, Paradise Cove, and many others) were given rave reviews by such "reputable" consultants as "I"ECA member Lon Woodbury (in fact, I can't ever recall reading any negative review by him, ever).  Anyway.  The point is: how is one to tell a good school for a bad one.  Even an educational consultant or a survior with experience.  What are your warning signs?

I'm particularly interested in that last question there.

[Anonymous]

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21280&p=278924#p278924

Anne Bonney wrote:

Bullshit. They've had plenty of time. These places have been around for what, 40 or so years now?

Well there you have it.  They have both been around for several decades and both have proven to be highly effective (no long terms studies which prove negative results for the majority of the population) although like penicillin it doesnt work for everyone, but that is no reason to discontinue their usage.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25845&p=314986#p314986

So, as long as Dad "thought" he was doing the right thing it makes the (none from him, all from program) beatings, the humiliation, the forced confessions, the isolation......that was all OK because he "thought he was doing the right thing at the time and for the right reasons.....THAT'S what is important" the abuse, all OK cuz he "meant well"? Shit!!!! Miller Newton THOUGHT he was doing the right thing. He STILL does. He STILL defends what he did years ago and what he does now. No, it's not what is important. What is important is the effect it had on me and my development as a person. The road to hell and all............. What's important, is the consequences of these thought processees (sp). What's important is that people finally realize that force/coercion has NO PLACE in a therapeutic setting. "Positive peer pressure" my ass.

Sure, if he knew they were beating you then yes he should feel guilty and was a lousy parent if he didn’t try to get you out. But if he felt (at the time) what he did was the best for you then he shouldn’t feel guilty now. The same as my mother should not feel guilty that she was feeding her kids bacon and eggs, whole milk etc. And my dad was smoking in the house around the kids. If they were doing it now then yes it would be wrong. But what your dad did and my mother did is not anything to feel guilty about.

And if it turns out that the programs of today are proven to be the best thing since penicillin you shouldn’t feel guilty for trying to stop kids from getting help because you are doing what you feel is best right now in your own mind.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=25983&start=120#p324254

Would you allow your daughter to go live and be completely controlled by a group of registered sex offenders? and willingly give up your child's right to contact you if they did something to her?

No, I don’t think anyone would.  Would you deny your daughter penicillin if you knew it were going to help her or aspirin to relieve some of the pain?  These schools are not controlled by registered sex offenders, you have been mis informed.

[Anonymous]

IIRC, one of the Lichfields is a registered sex offender and not allowed to step foot on his own schools (Cross Creek, et al). I don't think he's the only one as I recall hearing about a similar occurrence at another school.

Earlier I raised the point that many schools that are now defunct (such as tranquility bay, Paradise Cove, and many others) were given rave reviews by such "reputable" consultants as "I"ECA member Lon Woodbury (in fact, I can't ever recall reading any negative review by him, ever). Anyway. The point is: how is one to tell a good school for a bad one. Even an educational consultant or a survior with experience. What are your warning signs?

Yuk, I rely (primarily) on a few things.  

1. Feed back from families, which we stay in touch with and field reports from corporate who review.
2. visit and rate the schools/programs,
3.Feedback I read on fornits, the ones that are believable and sincere .  

Personal warning signs.  
When I read of kids who move out of the house upon return from a program, kids who were not depressed prior to entering a program and are now seeking mental health help on a weekly basis or are on medications now who were not on them before.  
Programs or schools should not be in the business of medicating the kids unless they are just continuing what the child was prescribed prior to entering the program.  Local therapists are better equipped to identify, prescribe, followup and adjust dosages/medications then a program handling hundreds of kids at a time.  The quality of the personal attention can be diminished.
Kids who tend to be worse off afterwards or more violent without having a serious mental condition or diagnosis.

[Ursus]

What I said was "essentially" meaning that was an example of the severity of this situation, when in reality the people that own these schools have physically and psychologically abused kids in the past but in a few instances have sexually abused kids as well and I am not inclined to believe that they aren't doing the same things today. The owners of these programs may not be registered sex offenders, but that is simply because they hide behind incorporation, and anyone attempting to sue or press charges against these men usually just settle outside of court. Those are one of the many get out of jail free cards that the amount of money these people make can buy them.

I understand what you are saying.  Sex offenders have ways of moving around and getting back into the system.  We all need to be diligent and have these schools perform background checks on all employees.  I had 2 kids who went to private boarding schools in Connecticut where the Dean of Students had a record of abuse before he was discovered and removed.

Which place might this be? Is it Hyde School?

[Anonymous]

LOL. on a serious note, do you actually feel that internet addiction exists? See. That's the problem I have with the disease concept of addiction. It absolves people of personal responsibility for their actions. Say you enjoy running or playing chess. Does that mean you have a running or chess playing addiction? It's getting a bit absurd when ordinary enjoyable behaviors are labeled as "addictions".

Such a concept also implies that because people are not responsible for their own actions, and do not have their own free will, imprisoning or "fixing" them against their will is ok (since it's not their will to give

I could speak quite a bit on this subject.  I do believe internet addiction exists.  I think people can become addicted to just about anything, some physically (alcohol) others mentally(internet) some both (cigarettes).  It is important to perceive that there is a difference between addiction and abuse.  Most kids who are thought to be addicted to drugs are merely just abusing them or experimenting for various reasons, the list is long.  Very few kids are actually addicted to anything, it is more of an adult issue which is the result of long term abuse.
Even some adults can abuse substances for a long time and then when faced with a health issue and/or medications which require the patient to stop drugging or drinking they are abole to do it without outside help.  Addiction runs in families and some people are vulnerable to addiction than others.

[Anonymous]

What I said was "essentially" meaning that was an example of the severity of this situation, when in reality the people that own these schools have physically and psychologically abused kids in the past but in a few instances have sexually abused kids as well and I am not inclined to believe that they aren't doing the same things today. The owners of these programs may not be registered sex offenders, but that is simply because they hide behind incorporation, and anyone attempting to sue or press charges against these men usually just settle outside of court. Those are one of the many get out of jail free cards that the amount of money these people make can buy them.

I understand what you are saying.  Sex offenders have ways of moving around and getting back into the system.  We all need to be diligent and have these schools perform background checks on all employees.  I had 2 kids who went to private boarding schools in Connecticut where the Dean of Students had a record of abuse before he was discovered and removed.

Which place might this be? Is it Hyde School?

No, I cant mention the name of the school.  I recieved 2 emails from people who I work with asking me if I was the KathyS on fornits.  I wasnt too smart in my name choice I guess.

It isnt a therapeutic school, it is a private school that has been around for over a 100 years. I dont believe it has ever been mentioned on this site.   When I re-read the post it sounded like I meant they were my own children.  They were not.  I use the term "My kids" to refer to any kids that I work with.  Sorry if this was confusing.

[Ursus]

I wouldn’t not recommend someone to a school because it contained one of 10 warning signs.  I have not seen your list of warning signs but you may be miss led on how to apply them.  Warning signs are meant to raise awareness.  For example one of the warning signs of depression is weight loss.  But because a child is losing weight does not mean they have depression, they could have a serious medical condition or just be on a silly diet due to social pressure, but it is something to keep your eye on.

I could never give a full list of schools, but a few that come to mind are:
Wil Lou Gray
The Academy
The family foundation school
Fulshear ranch academy
Most of the Aspen schools and wilderness programs

Here's a snippet about a place called "The Academy" from a multi-program compilation page aptly titled Voices from the GULAG:

4. "Satisfaction Guaranteed"

Four months before MK's death of a blood clot in her lungs, inspectors in Iowa cited numerous violations at "The Academy" a residential program for 162 troubled teenagers.

Violations at The Academy, noted the inspectors, included aggressive restraints. Most restraints, began with a minor incident, like a child's not putting on a coat. Many ended in injuries to the children, including broken blood vessels, black eyes, and bloody noses. Oklahoma inspectors visiting a resident from their state reported a 2 ½-hour restraint in which five male staff members held down a female resident, one lying across her hips.

In filing a report on M's death, state investigators concluded that "she was made to suffer greater distress than was reasonably necessary." She had been placed at the facility by the state because she was deemed to be "a child in need of assistance."[/list]

[psy]

Hoo boy.  Thank you Ursus.

So, Kathy, do violations/abuse cited by govt. authorities factor into your warning signs?

[Anonymous]

Hoo boy.  Thank you Ursus.

So, Kathy, do violations/abuse cited by govt. authorities factor into your warning signs?

To Ursus:  That is the total scope of your search.  One lone negative report from "Voices from the Gulag".  No positive information at all?

To Michael<  Yes, All information does.  We receive information on schools from corporate.  The programs themselves. There are site visits which we will attend ourselves for a firsthand look.  Any press releases or news articles.    We look at the good the bad and the ugly but not, I am sorry to say,  “Voices from the Gulag” is not one of our credible sources, come-on, Michael, do you really think we should limit all political information and thinking, as an example, to just Rush Limbaugh? And base our decision on the information he feeds us?   I don’t judge books by their cover, but I don’t think anyone in their right minds would name themselves that and expect to be credible.  Its designed to raise peoples emotions make them mad and turn them against the programs.
We do look at everything, fornits, like I stated before.  But we take it all into perspective and weigh the findings before considering if this is a place that we should be referring to or not.

[Anonymous]

I am trying to do a few things at once today and I am interested in this thread right now.  The wording didnt come out the way I wanted on thelast post.  I am not mad or anything.  Just not use to talking to people with opinions which are so different than my own.
Kathy

[Anonymous]

It was proved The Family Foundation “School” administrators designed, implemented, overseen, and carried out torture and thought reform upon youth. But this “edcon” “refers” kids there for  lock-down level “care” because the FFSA’s were supposedly only doing so from when they opened- 7 years ago.

Kathy, you’re too dumb and heartless to see your outrageous logic proves your team’s worthlessness as “consultant groups who steer parents around dangerous and abusive, and ‘ineffective’ programs” better than I could

Kathy, can you respond to this. And J.C.'s comments. The leaders of this org. were proved by congress to have "designed, implemented, overseen, and carried out torture and thought reform upon youth," as little as 7 years ago

Sworn testimonies continues to accrue that the leaders of FFS continue the same. Why is this a "good" place for kids, then? I mean, I really can't think of a better reason to recommend against an org that is supposed to provide "lock-down care" for its students then the designers not only having no credentials, and run an “ineffective” program...but are predators who have killed adolescents since their org.s inception

Shouldn't an “edcon” advise parents to avoid org.s that have leaders that designed and systematically executed torture on their “students”?

[Anonymous]

Kathy, can you respond to this. And J.C.'s comments. The leaders of this org. were proved by congress to have "designed, implemented, overseen, and carried out torture and thought reform upon youth," as little as 7 years ago

Sworn testimonies continues to accrue that the leaders of FFS continue the same. Why is this a "good" place for kids, then? I mean, I really can't think of a better reason to recommend against an org that is supposed to provide "lock-down care" for its students then the designers not only having no credentials, and run an “ineffective” program...but are predators who have killed adolescents since their org.s inception

It is difficult to have a conversation with someone when they are name calling, so I ignored you. Hey, if you don’t think I should refer to FFS then name a suitable program which would be a better substitute.  Then maybe we can talk.  If you think they are all equally abusive, then why bother arguing?  

Shouldn't an “edcon” advise parents to avoid org.s that have leaders that designed and systematically executed torture on their “students”?

[/quote]
No, I wouldn’t refer any student to these organizations.
Kathy

[Anonymous]

That wasn't me who posted that originally

But, the fact remains, you refer to FFS, though its leaders have been proved by congress "to have designed, implemented, and executed torture and thought reform" on their "students," while holding them in forced imprisonment? I don't understand. As an "edcon" shouldn't you be advising parents to avoid a group like that, instead of holding it up as the example of a "good" "school"?

Psy, Ursus, wanna bring up the info on those other places "she" listed

John Crawford, from CAFETY, could you please talk to this woman about the details and level of proof against FFS leaders?

 You know better than I, and this "person's" dialogue  presents a great opprotunity to showcase the quality of judgement and integrity of "edcons."

thanks.

[Anonymous]

Guest: I have internal information, but I would need to strip the header and would not be able to post the entire report due to legal complications because they dont belong to me, so I am posting something similar but accurate:

The Family Foundation School is accredited as a school by the Middle States Association of Colleges and Secondary Schools, the New York State Department of Education and is accredited as a behavioral health care facility by the Joint Commission

1.    From 2004 through 2008, all Family Foundation School graduates have been accepted at postsecondary institutions, with 85 percent to four-year colleges and 15 percent to two-year schools or professional training.

2.    A Family Foundation School Alumni Association was established after the school held its first alumni reunion in September 2006. More than 125 former students from around the United States attended the reunion

3.    The school's English and Philosophy instructor and middle school principal, Jan Cheripko, is the author of nine books, has won numerous national and international book awards and has been a featured speaker at the National Council of Teachers of English, the International Reading Association, and numerous other New York State and Northeastern U.S. regional education conferences. He has also conducted graduate teaching accredited workshops on how to reach at-risk students through writing and literature

4.    After the hearings:
The school responded by declaring their support of the efforts of the committee to keep children safe from harm, adding that they had since modified their crisis-management methods to meet the standards of both the New York State Department of Education and the Therapeutic Crisis Intervention (TCI) program developed by Cornell University. The school also stated that since 1999, all school faculty and staff are required to be trained in Therapeutic Crisis Intervention techniques.

5.    The Family Foundation School's extracurricular programs include sports teams, drama productions, musical programs, an art department and a wide variety of clubs.

6.    The school's performing arts program presents full-scale musicals, drama productions, winter and spring choral concerts that are open to the public. and is a regular participant in the North American Music Festivals.

7.    In 2004 and 2005, the school's debating team won the Seventh annual Delaware-Otsego Bar Associations Forensic Speech Tournament, a regional debating competition.

8.    The school soccer team won the championship in the New York State Class D, Section IX Conference in 2005. FFS alumnus Wells Thompson plays Major League Soccer for the New England Revolution

Do you still think it is a secret society of thought reform and torture?  You need to distance yourselves from web sites like “stories for the Gulag” and the other one which actually seemed worse but I cant remember its name.  You should try reading more main stream information to get more a perspective.

[Anonymous]

The "mainstream sorces," being the "schools" public relations materials? Not the sworn testimony and invvestiagatory reports of congressional hearings?